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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Chris_Rud on July 19, 2017, 11:55:25 AM

Title: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Chris_Rud on July 19, 2017, 11:55:25 AM
Hi Everyone!

We are making a new PAMPA website and one of the features we are testing is live score updating. You can see the test environment at https://pampa.bureaugravity.com/live-scores/

Thanks,
Chris Rud
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Alan Resinger on July 19, 2017, 12:16:05 PM
Thanks for posting.
Alan
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Tim Wescott on July 19, 2017, 01:55:33 PM
Well cool!  I even saw someone's score pop up as I watched.

So when will we see judges out there with tablet 'puters instead of sheets of paper?
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: peabody on July 19, 2017, 03:22:01 PM
Dave Cook speculated that each judge could be given a Palm device and scores sent to a computer that would post them real time when we were speaking in, maybe, 2000?
The technology is here...
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Brett Buck on July 19, 2017, 03:28:04 PM
Dave Cook speculated that each judge could be given a Palm device and scores sent to a computer that would post them real time when we were speaking in, maybe, 2000?
The technology is here...

  $400 per tablet (iPad mini), figure you need 16 of them plus some spares, so, 20, $8000, plus someone to write an app and get it into the Apple store, maybe another $2000 by the time you are done.

     Lots of things could be done technically, if the money was unlimited.

      Brett
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Tim Wescott on July 19, 2017, 03:50:42 PM
  $400 per tablet (iPad mini), figure you need 16 of them plus some spares, so, 20, $8000, plus someone to write an app and get it into the Apple store, maybe another $2000 by the time you are done.

     Lots of things could be done technically, if the money was unlimited.

      Brett

There are some Android tablets that are much less than that ($36 on Amazon, today).  But I was being facetious because I have a good idea of the time it'd take to develop, and the trouble it'd take to make it easy to use for the judges.  The time to make a nice app would be far ahead of your estimate, or free because someone did it as volunteer work.  (I think I'd do it as a web page, so you could use it with any tablet or phone -- but I've gotten sick and tired of the proliferation of apps, which affects my thinking).
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Abi on July 19, 2017, 04:05:01 PM
  $400 per tablet (iPad mini), figure you need 16 of them plus some spares, so, 20, $8000, plus someone to write an app and get it into the Apple store, maybe another $2000 by the time you are done.

I emailed Mr. Yampolski. He has a lot of experience building inexpensive software. Here's his take:

7"-8" Android tablet: $50-75
Use Odesk to build software for $1000-2000.
Volunteers to describe requirements and test
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: CircuitFlyer on July 19, 2017, 07:23:03 PM
Don't over think it.  Google Sheets linked to Google Forms for data input.  Everybody already has a phone in their pocket and most of us have or have access to a tablet.  Set up a wifi hotspot.  Done.
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Howard Rush on July 19, 2017, 08:22:44 PM
I wrote the Nats tabulation program.  Yes, it would be nice to have electronic score entry.  If you can come up with something that meets our requirements, we can integrate it.  The technology no doubt exists, but nobody wants to do the work. 

 
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Brett Buck on July 19, 2017, 08:40:19 PM
Don't over think it.  Google Sheets linked to Google Forms for data input.  Everybody already has a phone in their pocket and most of us have or have access to a tablet.  Set up a wifi hotspot.  Done.

  Nice to see all these volunteers with money and willing to spend the time integrating it!

    Brett
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Peter Nevai on July 19, 2017, 09:34:30 PM
  Nice to see all these volunteers with money and willing to spend the time integrating it!

    Brett
While a ll it take is a free google account and someone to just set up googe sheets and forms, I still ask why? I am a firm believer of the KISS method. It is a nice novelty but considering the size of the audience and the number of times a year it would be implemented, there is really no appreciable ROI either in time spent and costs (As low as they could be). Pencil, Paper and one person to post the results on a website is all you require. Time and money is better spent on the live video streaming efforts. You could even have mini action cams attached to a baseball cap on select competitors to stream first person perspective of the flight. You know like they do with selected auto racers who let the media mount cams into their cars. Wifi Accesspoints are getting cheap, actually just about every smartphone can act as a mobile data hotspot. Freeware applications like VLC player allow you to imbed streaming video right into web pages. What used to take a broadcast van with $300k worth of equipment can be approximated for pennies on the dollar. I have a HTC M1 and two Samsung Galaxy S3 smartphones lust lying around being unused since I have upgraded to the Samsung Galaxy 7. These days you can prepay mobile data without subscriptions so any cost of using the bandwidth can be only bought at the time of the event. What I am saying is that just by borrowing or getting donated technology no one uses anymore (Plenty on Ebay) because they got the latest toys can more than provide the technology needed to pull this off. It does not need to be broadcast quality as heck it is only a model airplane event.
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: peabody on July 20, 2017, 08:00:23 AM
One of Dave's concerns was that multiple judges were 2-3 maneuvers behind when writing scores (they wanted to see how the flight was going!) and Dave wanted to "cut off" late entries....
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Tim Wescott on July 20, 2017, 01:45:36 PM
My god.  I leave off the stupid "devil grinning" emoticon and people act like it's a serious suggestion.  When ESPN2 (or even ESPN199, if there is such a thing) comes knocking, then we can consider it.  Until then -- paper's nice, and traditional, and it gets the job done.
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Tim Wescott on July 20, 2017, 01:46:13 PM
Why so many zeros for the second flight?  Were people bailing because of nasty weather or something?
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Chris_Rud on July 20, 2017, 03:18:52 PM
Why so many zeros for the second flight?  Were people bailing because of nasty weather or something?

Yes. Thunderstorm moved through. Some waited... most didn't.
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Chris_Rud on July 20, 2017, 07:53:29 PM
Ok, now we have the advanced finals loaded with open top 20  ;D

Their is also a feature that will allow you to request text notifications for pilots scores once they are updated. Click on the icon next to the pilots name that has a smart phone icon to input your number.

https://pampa.bureaugravity.com/live-scores/

-Chris
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Crist Rigotti on July 20, 2017, 09:19:47 PM
Very cool.  Thanks Chris.
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Target on July 20, 2017, 10:38:21 PM
In F3J (RC Sailplane precision duration flights) We enter scores on our cell phones to a website that tabulates the scores automatically. It's simple and effective.

R,
Chris
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Phil Spillman on July 21, 2017, 10:03:51 AM
Hi All, It's great to see some of my friends making the Top 20! Best of luck to Joe Gilbert. Steve Fitton, Mike Palko, and that gray haired mid-westerner who used to be an airline Pilot!

Phil Spillman
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Tim Wescott on July 21, 2017, 12:49:28 PM
In F3J (RC Sailplane precision duration flights) We enter scores on our cell phones to a website that tabulates the scores automatically. It's simple and effective.

R,
Chris

What I think would make it difficult is that the judges have to be able to enter a score in a few seconds -- even with familiar old pencil and paper you can feel rushed to make a decision and get it jotted down in the right box.  With something unfamiliar you need to make it quick, and you need to make it handle the sort of free-form behavior you see in Beginner and Intermediate, or when s--t happens.  Madly clicking buttons trying to navigate outside of some software engineer's* idea of "the right way to do things" would screw up the scores for that flight.

It would be hard to get right.  Particularly because people who are good enough to judge Expert but don't fly expert are either cantankerous old men with little patience for techno-whiz, or injured younger men who are cranky because they're not flying that day, etc..

* And yes, one of the jobs I can do is software engineer, and yes, in the past I've been the one with the bright idea that turned out to be stupid, and I've also been the one tasked with fixing someone else's "bright idea", and I've even been the Greek chorus singing on the sidelines about how someone's bright idea would bring doom and disaster, and had to watch helplessly when it happened.
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Tim Wescott on July 21, 2017, 02:16:25 PM
Congrats on getting into the top five.  Now stop diddling with the web and concentrate on getting into the top one!!
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Steve Helmick on July 21, 2017, 02:25:18 PM
Uh, when I clicked on the link yesterday evening, I got second round scores for everybody but David Fitzgerald. Exactly the same today. Since I know yesterday was Top 20 Day, and know who made Final 5 today, it is strange that David's 2nd round flight score still isn't posted. This may suggest (to some) that computer oversight isn't impossible? D>K Steve 
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: RC Storick on July 21, 2017, 02:35:38 PM
https://youtu.be/xFsQE59UCDY
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 21, 2017, 04:07:54 PM
Uh, when I clicked on the link yesterday evening, I got second round scores for everybody but David Fitzgerald. Exactly the same today. Since I know yesterday was Top 20 Day, and know who made Final 5 today, it is strange that David's 2nd round flight score still isn't posted. This may suggest (to some) that computer oversight isn't impossible? D>K Steve
Steve if I'm not mistaken David passed on the second round so there was no score.  Don't know if they have an icon for that.

Dave
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Avaiojet on July 21, 2017, 04:13:05 PM
Robert,

Thanks for that video. Made me feel like I was there!

CB
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Target on July 21, 2017, 05:33:09 PM
Madly clicking buttons trying to navigate outside of some software engineer's* idea of "the right way to do things" would screw up the scores for that flight.

It would be hard to get right.  Particularly because people who are good enough to judge Expert but don't fly expert are either cantankerous old men with little patience for techno-whiz, or injured younger men who are cranky because they're not flying that day, etc..



With just one or two folks entering paper scores, there would be a minimal delay. The cantankerous old puss bags can keep spewing puss, and writing down scores on pads. The computer nerds could enter the scores after that...
My point is that the other 9/10 has already put programs in place to make live scoring pretty painless, so there is no point in re-inventing the wheel just for C/L if another program can be easily adapted. All that is really needed is some open mindedness; but that may be too much to ask from some of the older folks. That leaves it up to the younger ones to step up....Like you and me, and a handful of others. I would love to, but I don't have time. What we need is someone that is retired, has the time, and that has the know how and drive to handle it.
Just sayin'. It wouldn't be that hard, we wouldn't be trail blazing.

R,
Chris
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Trostle on July 21, 2017, 05:39:35 PM
Steve if I'm not mistaken David passed on the second round so there was no score.  Don't know if they have an icon for that.

Dave

Unless I am mistaken, both rounds during top 20 day count toward top 20 placing and determination of the top 5.  There cannot be a throwaway score unless an individual throws away both attempts for any one of both of his two official flights.

Keith
Title: Re: NATs live Scoreboard
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 21, 2017, 05:48:37 PM
Keith you are absolutely right.  But I think Steve was talking about scores from yesterday's qualifying second round.  He just needed the best of two then, which was added to the best from Wednesday.  I believe Joe Gilbert also passed after one flight and there might have been another-Paul perhaps.

Dave