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Author Topic: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open  (Read 4452 times)

Offline Larry Fulwider

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Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« on: July 21, 2010, 08:56:14 AM »
Does anyone have the appearance points for the Nats top 20 (or a complete list), either Advanced or Open? Or Intermediate? It would be interesting to see what role, if any, appearance points played in the final outcomes. Or making the top 20. Or making the top 5.
   Since we recently had a rule proposal to make appearance points more meaningful, shouldn’t we take a look at how the current system is working at the Nats level?
            There were some well done, modified ARCs. Who had them, and how did they score on appearance points?

       Larry Fulwider

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 11:21:51 AM »
Does anyone have the appearance points for the Nats top 20 (or a complete list), either Advanced or Open? Or Intermediate? It would be interesting to see what role, if any, appearance points played in the final outcomes. Or making the top 20. Or making the top 5.
   Since we recently had a rule proposal to make appearance points more meaningful, shouldn’t we take a look at how the current system is working at the Nats level?
           

   It would be interesting to see. When I checked it a few years ago for the Top 20, the range of appearance points and the range of the flying scores was about 25/75 appearance/flying. Which seemed about right to me - even though I missed the Top 5 flyoff at least twice and probably a third time due to appearance points deficits. When you got to the Top 5, it was closer to 50/50 but since then the typical range of scores in the Top 5 has broadened considerably.

    Outside of that, the appearance points appeared to have next to no influence on the results. That's no surprise, in the other classes the range of skills is so large that it swamps the tiny effects of appearance points.


     Brett

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2010, 05:59:31 AM »
When I checked it a few years ago for the Top 20, the range of appearance points and the range of the flying scores was about 25/75 appearance/flying.
     Brett
Appearance is scored 0-20, right.  So how could the range have been 25 ?
Allan Perret
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Offline TDM

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2010, 06:10:14 AM »
   range of the flying scores was about 25/75 appearance/flying.  When you got to the Top 5, it was closer to 50/50 but since then the typical range of scores in the Top 5 has broadened considerably.

        Brett


???????????????????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? Draw me a picture so I can understand this comment. What is 25 what is 75???????????? I am pretty good at math but this is a mystery to me.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 06:18:29 AM »
It appears to be a percentage based on the spread of the scores.  The top 5 have typically closer scores and the appearance points would have a greater factor in placing.  The greater the spread of scores...the lower the factor.
Zuriel Armstrong
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 09:03:20 AM »
Paul Walker has the list. 

You might ask how appearance points affect people's interest in attending the Nats, either as contestants or spectators.  Who wants to go see a bunch of wrinkly plastic ARFs and some rich guys with Sharks?
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2010, 09:21:05 AM »
Now the World Championships are starting.  You will not find very many poorly finished planes if any.  There is no appearance points in F2B.  I have seen some really gorgeous planes in F2B. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline jose modesto

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2010, 10:52:54 AM »
Control Line precision acrobatics is and established international Art. Plastic covered models are not the norm.Just look at the last 40 years of international competitions.
The US team has attended these competitions with some of our most beautifully models. Cobras,USA1,Noblers,STILLETOS,some tations Fancher,impacts,Saturns ETC.
The Japanese,French,Chinese,and many countries including all the former Soviet states practice this international Art to the highest level as seen at the 1984 and 2004 US worlds.
We in the USA have done more to kill this art but yet the world has continued to practice this Art form. In many ways  They have pushed the envelope to even higher standards.
With the creation of PAMPA we changed the appearance judging from 40 points to 20 points,have allowed the use of preshetted foam wings,tails and flaps,the  built up wing by others,the component kit,ARC and the current rule which is a painting contest. with all this we have a group memory that brings us back to our ART. This combined memory will not allow this Design, Building , Finishing and flying  Art to die. "BOM LIVES in our souls. EAST COAST WEST COAST
JOSE MODESTO

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2010, 11:43:11 AM »
Now the World Championships are starting.  You will not find very many poorly finished planes if any.  There is no appearance points in F2B.  I have seen some really gorgeous planes in F2B. H^^

    I think the line of reasoning misses the point. You could have a BOM rule without appearance points, or appearance points without BOM. I think the BOM is a lot more important. Getting rid of appearance points would merely take appearance out of the scoring. BOM determines whether or not you can enter the National Championships *at all*. The important thing, to me, is to preserve the standards we have used, and not water down the process or the event. Now, to win, you have to master a huge variety of skills to a very high degree.

      It would be entirely possible, without the BOM, for someone to build, adjust, and trim the airplane, hand it to someone, and have them fly a few flights and win. I know *I* could certainly supply the airplane, trimmed, with perfect engine run, for someone, given the right price (don't ask, you can't afford it). There are a large number of people whose competition chances would be greatly improved over what they have now, because most of the airplanes you see now aren't trimmed worth a darn, have unfortunate engine runs, and are otherwise very difficult to compete with. And many of them have higher flying talent (I won't admit to skill, I will stick with talent) than I do. But I regularly beat them and am competitive with anyone because I have managed to do better in the non-flying side of the system.

    Now that is all personalized, but it generalizes nicely. One interesting thing about the ratio of appearance points spread to flying points spread (as mentioned above to Dorin's consternation) is that the appearance point spread tended to get much tighter as the the skill level of the competitors increased. That's because the people involved at the higher levels of the event had mastered more aspects of the event - in this case, building and finishing skills.

     The same people would have risen to the top without appearance points. Having a BOM, however, ensures that ALL aspects of the event are rewarded. It is absolutely not a "flying contest", it never has been a mere "flying contest", and simply flying the airplane is and has been, to my estimation, hardly over half the total problem of winning stunt contests. I want my national champion to have mastered EVERYTHING associated with the event. Billy is a perfect example - he can fly fantastically well, but you know, I am going to go out on a limb and say that the average 70ish year old man is not going to be a epitome of human physical perfection. H's still almost untouchable on a good day and always a threat because he *has mastered everything associated with the event* to such a degree that even with what must be some additional difficulties in one area are overcome by his superior mastery of everything else. This is the true beauty of the event, the very essence of it.

     Stunt without the BOM is a one-dimensional event, and if somehow tomorrow you could go down to the sporting goods store and buy a perfectly trimmed and powered stunt plane for $100 (like you can with a tennis racket) and go learn to fly, it will reward only *one* aspect of the current event. The only reason the PAMPA classes don't degenerate to the same problem is that everyone knows that the end goal is to master things enough to get to expert and ultimately win a National Championship. And there is nothing likely to happen to create perfectly-built, trimmed, and powered ARF for any reasonable money - some of the consumer ARFs are pretty good if you get experts to assemble and trim them, and get a good engine run, but competitive RTFs are many thousands of dollars and rare as hen's teeth.

   Before the usual suspects tediously start deconstructing this to make political hay (although I don't see why anyone cares about that any more, I am a lame duck as a PAMPA officer), this is what *I really believe*. If someone doesn't agree that's fine with me, but i will continue to say and act in a way that is in support of what I believe.


      Brett


Online dale gleason

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2010, 02:59:45 PM »
Well put, Mr. Buck.
I, for one, find myself in total agreement.

Had I worked as diligently for the last ten years as I did for this year's NATs, I'm sure I would be a lot farther down the road to success. However, when those one-eighty building doors open and I see my ship sitting there with all the other beautiful planes, well, those 16 points are just well worth the effort......and just a little here and there would bring it so much closer!
 
No amount of buffing and polishing a ready to fly plane can reflect the sense of pride and accomplishment that comes with sitting your own work out for your peers to judge/examine.

It's not just a flying event, I hope that aspect never falls by the wayside.
dg

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2010, 03:52:45 PM »
BOM or no, I build all my own because I'm proud of my work, as crude as it often is.

I keep my interest because I always plan my next plane to be nicer than the last. It has worked so far, but I have a long way to go.

Floyd
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2010, 04:52:38 PM »
Does anyone have the appearance points for the Nats top 20 (or a complete list), either Advanced or Open? Or Intermediate? It would be interesting to see what role, if any, appearance points played in the final outcomes. Or making the top 20. Or making the top 5.
   Since we recently had a rule proposal to make appearance points more meaningful, shouldn't we take a look at how the current system is working at the Nats level?
            There were some well done, modified ARCs. Who had them, and how did they score on appearance points?

       Larry Fulwider


Your question is pretty well answered by the scoreboards and other posting here.

The people in genuine competition scored between 16 and 20 appearance points, so only about 3 to 4 points were actually in play.
The gap between the top 5 and the peloton was a lot more than that.

Howard, who (regretably) came in 6th, got near max appearance points so there was no room for improvement there.

The current system serves only to penalize planes that get zero or near-zero marks.  That seem OK to most people.  The best planes get a lot of recognition and a few extra points.



Paul Smith

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2010, 07:14:44 AM »
Oh well eliminate the BOM. I am done.

Might as well curcum to the buy and fly mentality and kill this forever. Just like our manufacturing in this country. We don't make anything here anymore anyway.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2010, 08:07:39 AM »
After seeing the news about China and the unions moving in, we may be getting some of our manufacturing back to the states.  Hey Sparky it is good to see you are back.  Hope all is well.  H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Jim Oliver

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2010, 08:33:26 AM »
Sparky,

Your optimistic perspective is very encouraging! ;D

I am in my late 60s, trying to learn to fly CLPA and having fun building, painting and flying.  I will never be a serious competition threat to anyone in the upper classes, but I won't stop trying.

This event has been, and will continue to be, under the control of those at the upper levels of competition. 
The event, ARF/ARC/BOM/appearance points and whatever else, will be whatever we make it to be.  Three or four  years ago, I thought that the event should be "modernized";  I soon realized that, mostly, the event "ain't broke" and needs very little, if any, "fixin".

After many years flying other types of models, I returned to CL to relax and have fun.  And I'm gonna do exactly that!  I will continue to improve my skills in all aspects of this madness, without regard to the "rules".  When or if, I am no longer having fun, I will find something else to do.  This is as it should be.........

Brett's comments seem well considered and clear.  He doesn't advocate eliminating BOM or appearance points, he simply notes that some talented flyers could win with or without BOM/appearance points.  He states that "Now, to win, you have to master a huge variety of skills to a very high degree."  This, too, is as it should be........

Brett, please correct my comments if I have not correctly understood you. 
Jim Oliver
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2010, 07:45:45 AM »
Appearance points count double in both qualifying for the top 5 and the determination of champion. Dan Banjok would have been within a few points  of top 5 qualifying with 4 or 5 more appearance points. His Vista is, I believe, a distinctly original approach in both appearance and aerodynamics. The Vista scored only 13 appearance points. No problem with the rating. The plane had a severe crash and was repaired. Obvious cosmetic flaws. Dan's 8th place finish was largely the result of his comparatively low appearance point total.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2010, 07:52:27 AM »
FAI has no BOM stipulation. Consequently Sharks compete without restriction or reservation. These planes arrive expertly trimmed and powered by a debugged reliable power train. A near optimum combo for those who prefer this style of flying. NATs Sharks arrive as component kits. A different situation.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2010, 08:25:56 AM »
But, you have to have deep pockets for those planes.   S?P
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2010, 11:19:11 AM »
Building and flying stunt is somewhat like playing the guitar. Just about anyone can learn to play the guitar in a few weeks, but to master it, and play it well, takes years. There are very few top flyers, that have not been at this for some years. It is an art that has to be refined over time. And that is what makes stunt what it is. I flew R/C pattern for 25 years, and although it takes the same dedication to get to the top, it does not compare with C/L stunt in my opinion. As someone said on another board, " If it was easy, little girls could do it"
Jim Kraft

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2010, 02:49:06 PM »
But, you have to have deep pockets for those planes.   S?P

  And, more importantly - you can't fly them in the National Championship. That's why people are trying to confuse the issue of the BOM rule and "inhibiting participation" - not because they want the masses to buy inexpensive ARFS by the hundred and flood the world with new C/L fliers as claimed, but so someone  can sell a tiny few people hyper-expensive (and hyper-high profit margin) models to use at the NATs.

    Getting rid of the BOM rule would change absolutely *nothing* for almost everyone, the only goal is to allow a few custom builders to sell high-end models to the 3-4 people who might use them.

    Brett

Offline Ron Merrill

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Re: Nats Appearance Points – Advanced and Open
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2010, 03:52:59 PM »
I don't have a dog in this fight, Brett is right on. Put forth the effort, you should be rewarded. Ron.


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