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Author Topic: Nat's stunt Banquet  (Read 6653 times)

Offline bill rutherford

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Nat's stunt Banquet
« on: August 03, 2014, 08:05:46 PM »
Each year we have the stunt banquet after the top five , Jr. Sr. and Walker cup on Sat. night. This year I didn't stay as it would have meant another night in the hotel and waiting around all day sat. for the banquet sat night.
   Let's face it most guys don't make the top five and we have few if any Jr. and Sr. entry's. We give out the Jr. Sr. and walker cup at the field , so why hang around for the banquet?
      How about having the banquet Friday night ? We know who the advanced winner is. The best looking airplane winner has been chosen but not announced , We known who the top twenty are. We also know who the top five are. The ceremony at the field on sa  for the walker cup  is plenty good . We could all head for home by noon and get home a day earlier . Also the attendance for a Friday night banquet would be much greater.
   Whatca think??           Bill Rutherford

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2014, 08:15:32 PM »
That sounds logical, but that would be too easy.
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2014, 08:18:22 PM »
I totally agree.  It becomes mostly a wasted day and yet another night at the hotel.  I'd bet nearly all the contestants would be there if on Friday.

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2014, 09:54:09 PM »
So true.  that is why I didn't stay the last time I was at a NATS.
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2014, 10:16:21 PM »
That sounds logical, but that would be too easy.

C'mon Sparky.  Isn't that just a little too snarky toward the many people who've put a lot of work into doing this stuff for so many years...many at great cost...both in time and $$$...to themselves?  I'd like to think we could, instead, make positive, constructive contributions like Bill just did.  If it was so easy why didn't you think of it and volunteer to do it all those many years ago.  Come on......!

I'd like to say thanks to all the people who worked so hard for so many years so I could play hot shot stunt pilot.  I know one of them is my wife who worked her butt off for 30+ years and could write up a list of names of others who worked just as hard or harder than she did...including those that put together our banquets.

Sparky, I give you great credit for running this site for the benefit of our fellow stunt pilots.  Let's pass on the credit to others that have benefited us all and, instead of brickbats, throw suggestions!

Ted

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2014, 06:26:06 AM »
And while we are making changes....how about moving the beauty contest to Tuesday night instead of Sunday?  That would save a lot of people a lot of money by not having to show up earlier than is really needed, since the flying starts Wednesday morning.  If you want to get there early and fly, well go ahead.  But why make it a requirement by having the beauty contest on Sunday?  It should be moved to as late as possible.

Thanks for considering this,
Scott

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2014, 06:56:26 AM »
And while we are making changes....how about moving the beauty contest to Tuesday night instead of Sunday?  That would save a lot of people a lot of money by not having to show up earlier than is really needed, since the flying starts Wednesday morning.  If you want to get there early and fly, well go ahead.  But why make it a requirement by having the beauty contest on Sunday?  It should be moved to as late as possible.

Thanks for considering this,
Scott
Scott it was moved to Monday.  That was a good move.  For me I'd rather practice on the day before qualifying.  



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Online James Mills

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2014, 06:57:08 AM »
And while we are making changes....how about moving the beauty contest to Tuesday night instead of Sunday?  That would save a lot of people a lot of money by not having to show up earlier than is really needed, since the flying starts Wednesday morning.  If you want to get there early and fly, well go ahead.  But why make it a requirement by having the beauty contest on Sunday?  It should be moved to as late as possible.

Thanks for considering this,
Scott
Appearance and the pilots meeting is on Monday, beginner and intermediate are on Sunday.  With old time and classic on Tuesday trying to add apperance judging on the same day would be too much for one day (unless they were moved to Monday I guess).

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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2014, 08:09:07 AM »

Sparky, I give you great credit for running this site for the benefit of our fellow stunt pilots.  Let's pass on the credit to others that have benefited us all and, instead of brickbats, throw suggestions!

Ted

Well Ted where did I take credit away from anyone? I am starting to get some feed back in my in-box of the banquet move and how that would benefit many. That would include PAMPA.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2014, 09:47:50 AM »
And while we are making changes....how about moving the beauty contest to Tuesday night instead of Sunday?  That would save a lot of people a lot of money by not having to show up earlier than is really needed, since the flying starts Wednesday morning.  If you want to get there early and fly, well go ahead.  But why make it a requirement by having the beauty contest on Sunday?  It should be moved to as late as possible.

  Do to that puts all the processing (score sheets, etc) Tuesday night. The only reason they can do Appearance Judging on Monday now is that the processing has been streamlined, but trying to come up with absolutely everything between Tuesday at 5ish and Wednesday at 8 AM is a real problem.

   Brett

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2014, 10:57:17 AM »
Well Ted where did I take credit away from anyone? I am starting to get some feed back in my in-box of the banquet move and how that would benefit many. That would include PAMPA.

Let's put it this way, Sparky:  If you think it is "too easy", why don't you run the events in your spare time next year?  Remember (and this is off the top of my head), doing so includes:


Rounding up dozens of people to help (in their spare time and their own expense) do judging, pit bossing, tabulating, appearance judging, running, etc.

Making up scoreboards. 

Making up score sheets. 

Printing up each of thousands of individual score sheets with the pilots and judges names the night before each day's flying and organizing them on the correct clip board for each of the volunteer judges. 

Insuring the tabulation programs are up to date (or make new ones...thanks Howard) so as to accommodate  all the other (annually occurring) "easy change" suggestions from people who don't have to implement them (i.e. Open AND Expert???  Did the numbers taking advantage of that "great" idea justify the tons of work necessary to implement it?). 

Should we have separate qualifying circles for Advanced and Open...or, mix and match...oh and don't forget to seed them in a fashion to satisfy each of the 80 or so fliers...or don't seed them, depending on your CLPA ideology. 

Assigning judges so that there won't  be a lot of whining about who judged who. 

Making sure the judges are trained so as to satisfy every entrant's specific demands as to their "flying style" opinions...

DEEEEP BREATH....

Running--or assuring they are run--multiple unofficial events. 

Arranging all the equipment and making sure it's functional and on site. 

Struggling with AMA to insure the grass circles are adequate for those unofficial events.

Watching the weather to try to keep everyone safe. 

Insuring the site is set up and not hazardous to the airplanes (I spent a lot of hours helping David Fitz tape over wide cracks in the surface the two years he ED'd and I judged, for instance).

Fielding complaints and/or official protests. 

Oh, yeah,  weigh the airplanes and make up lists for the Pit Bosses for pull testing. 

Find a place for the "beauty contest" (that, by the way, rankles me.  The craftsmanship and the respect it deserves as a factor in selecting our national champions is unique to our event and has been part of the struggle for excellence for would be champions since stunt's inception.  That "beauty contest" is the premier social event of the whole stunt nats and deservedly so). 

Find judges for the "beauty contest" and volunteers to weigh and tabulate the results which must that evening be programmed into the event's database and data sheets made for the pit bosses.

I grow weary and all I'm doing is typing up the "too easy" stuff that has to be done.

Sparky, I could go on and on because I spent much of my adult life attending Nationals as a contestant while my wife helped multiple event directors trying to struggle through pleasing all the contestants...starting at the crack of dawn and usually still busy until at or near midnight.  If it looked easy to the contestants, believe me, it only looked easy because the people that did the work worked so damn hard so we could play.

To add to the thanks they get/got for doing so you look at yet another of their jobs and tell them "...that would be too easy!"

Or, to make simpler,  just about a year's hard work for each one week's nats.

And you wonder why anyone would take offense?  I've gotta believe you've no idea how hard it is to get people to work so us hot shots can play for the big bucks and the groupies.  Such remarks will only make it harder.

I'd like to say thanks for those who worked to make any of the Nats banquets happen and thanks also to those who make positive meaningful suggestions, such as Bill, as to how the banquet could be improved while minimizing the impact on those that have to make it happen...and the last is the most important part.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2014, 10:59:44 AM »
Yep leave it as is. As always when questioned its WHY DON"T YOU DO IT AND SEE HOW HARD IT IS. moving the banquet was suggested in 03.04,05 but never went anywhere. Why is it that when any suggestions are made it's met with a brick wall? The answer is always met with ,Thats how we have always done it.
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2014, 02:03:20 PM »
Geez Ted - take a chill pill!

When I referred to the assigning of points for craftsmanship and finish (or whatever the official name is) as the "beauty contest" I was not trying to demean it.  I was just trying to refer to it by a name that most would recognize.  I happen to be one of the people who supports the BOM rule.  In fact, I'd like to see the "beauty points" increased to include originality (and before anyone gets in a bunch over that, I'm not saying there is something horribly wrong with the event.  I just think there may be ways to improve it.)  Your problem with the term  "beauty contest" is just that: your problem.  There was no negative intent on my part in using it.

I do notice that my error in assuming that it was still on Monday was corrected by others without going into histrionics that I got the day wrong.  They simply corrected me.  Thanks guys for the correction.  And Brett simply stated why my idea wasn't very workable.

So, I would like to address one more issue.  Some people seem to be developing a habit of jumping all over Sparky when he ventures an opinion.  I think that Sparky is a bit opinionated.  But so what?  And sometimes I disagree with him and think he is incorrect.  But again, so what?  If I disagree with him, I'll post a reply and say why.  But in this case you inferred that he said that running the Nats was "easy" and then ran with it.  That is not what he said.  Worse, you then did the classic "if you think it is so easy, then you do it" and listed all that entailed.  Not fair.

Sparky makes his own contribution to stunt by running this web-site.  Most of us do far less.  I suppose he could come back with a "You think running a web-site is easy?  Then you do it!" and list all the tasks he does to keep this thing up and running.  So you guys jump all over him and he quits?  Then what?  Where will you type out your 2 and a half page long mis-directed diatribes?

Scott

   

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2014, 02:03:50 PM »
Yep leave it as is. As always when questioned its WHY DON"T YOU DO IT AND SEE HOW HARD IT IS. moving the banquet was suggested in 03.04,05 but never went anywhere. Why is it that when any suggestions are made it's met with a brick wall? The answer is always met with ,Thats how we have always done it.

Sorry, but moving the " Awards Banquet" to a day before the contest is done is just a dumb idea. The problem is not with "when" the banquet is, it is with how "bad" it is, since we moved to the AMA garage.(this year you could not even enjoy a beer or glass of wine) Make a nicer banquet and it will be worth staying the extra night to enjoy it, like it use to be...

Derek

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2014, 02:27:03 PM »
Better yet, move it to Thursday evening. EVERYBODY is still there then! No wasted days!

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2014, 02:39:00 PM »
Sparse turn out this year. Not so in the past. Dunno why. It's been in the same place for the last three or four years. I like the Thursday idea. A celebration of stunt when most everyone is still around. But what do you about the trophies.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2014, 02:42:53 PM »
Trophies.....Hand them out at the field when the event is over!



OR......It could be Wednesday night combined with the PAMPA meeting.  Two birds with one stone!

Offline peabody

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2014, 02:45:30 PM »
I think Paul's idea is good.....but that but that Friday is better, since the big trophies are awarded at the field anyway, and a lot of the peanut gallery has headed home.....
I thought that there was a banquet before top 5 day and WC in the past? For many/most, it means another night in Muncie, and another day missed from work (I'm old and can't drive straight through).

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2014, 08:33:25 PM »
This is an interesting viewpoint.

I attended the Banquet dinner and I was shocked at how poorly attended it was.

Certainly if you look at the bulk attendance of the contest, vs the attendance of the Banquet and the repeated calling of people to sign up to attend indicates a problem IS THERE.


We have a similar problem out here with lack of attendance to presentation dinners and as a result we have moved toward on field presentations.

I see no issue with adopting an approach similar to other major sporting events - Have the presentation on the field, still offer catering but perhaps start it at 5pm in the LPAD.

Promote more people staying to flying after the event swapping planes, having a few laughs and lots of photo ops.

Having a poorly attended banquet doesn't help promote the success of the event. Surely the winner would like to celebrate with their peers.

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Offline bill rutherford

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2014, 08:36:02 PM »
Gee Guys I didn't mean to stir anything up but all I'm trying to say is that I would like to see  a bigger turn out for the banquet. To me the Banquet is not just for the contestants it is also for the people that worked their tails off to make it happen. With out the contest director, assistant cd, judges, tabulators and so on it would not happen. I agree with Derek that the AMA garage is just not the place. I was kind of shocked when it was held there some years ago. I'm now 71 and must admit that I enjoy the social side more now. Paper plates and napkins' come on. We are talking about our top flyers and a lot of hard working people. Bill Rutherford

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2014, 08:57:51 PM »
Yep leave it as is. As always when questioned its WHY DON"T YOU DO IT AND SEE HOW HARD IT IS. moving the banquet was suggested in 03.04,05 but never went anywhere. Why is it that when any suggestions are made it's met with a brick wall? The answer is always met with ,Thats how we have always done it.

Bob,

If you'd read my post you'd know that I embraced Bill's constructive suggestion...without considering it the ultimate solution. 

Trust me...through osmosis watching how hard my wife worked in a "subordinate" roll as head tabulator for thirty or more years...I'm sensitive to suggestions that the workers have some inexplicable desire to make their own jobs harder and, therefore, opt to make the banquet an expensive pain in the neck for the competitors and their families, etc. so as to make them choose to not attend.  Instead of accusing them of  avoiding the "easy" solution to an obvious problem I, instead, find Bill's approach of making constructive suggestions a more valuable post.  My only point was to insure that everyone knows how difficult a job it is to "run the events" and that the banquet is a real, but subordinate, problem for the people doing all the work.

Take Bill's suggestion and help massage it into a workable solution for as many as possible.  This is much more valuable input than suggesting that the people who do all the work are too dumb to see the "easy" solution (FWIW, I don't think Bill's solution is perfect but it is a step in the right direction offered in a consructive manner).

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2014, 09:06:18 PM »
Geez Ted - take a chill pill!

When I referred to the assigning of points for craftsmanship and finish (or whatever the official name is) as the "beauty contest" I was not trying to demean it.  I was just trying to refer to it by a name that most would recognize.  I happen to be one of the people who supports the BOM rule.  In fact, I'd like to see the "beauty points" increased to include originality (and before anyone gets in a bunch over that, I'm not saying there is something horribly wrong with the event.  I just think there may be ways to improve it.)  Your problem with the term  "beauty contest" is just that: your problem.  There was no negative intent on my part in using it.

I do notice that my error in assuming that it was still on Monday was corrected by others without going into histrionics that I got the day wrong.  They simply corrected me.  Thanks guys for the correction.  And Brett simply stated why my idea wasn't very workable.

So, I would like to address one more issue.  Some people seem to be developing a habit of jumping all over Sparky when he ventures an opinion.  I think that Sparky is a bit opinionated.  But so what?  And sometimes I disagree with him and think he is incorrect.  But again, so what?  If I disagree with him, I'll post a reply and say why.  But in this case you inferred that he said that running the Nats was "easy" and then ran with it.  That is not what he said.  Worse, you then did the classic "if you think it is so easy, then you do it" and listed all that entailed.  Not fair.

Sparky makes his own contribution to stunt by running this web-site.  Most of us do far less.  I suppose he could come back with a "You think running a web-site is easy?  Then you do it!" and list all the tasks he does to keep this thing up and running.  So you guys jump all over him and he quits?  Then what?  Where will you type out your 2 and a half page long mis-directed diatribes?

Scott

   

Scott,  It's not complicated.  The event is called Appearance judging.  You don't have to make up a new name for what's been going on for decades...unless, of course, it's important to demean the undertaking by suggesting it consists of girls in bikinis showing off their reconstructive surgeries.  It's no mystery that many of those airplanes on the front rows are also the most competitive following the compilation of the scores.

Re your second point, I've never been anything but complimentary of Bob's administration of Stunt Hangar.  In fact, if you'd read my post you'd see another example of my appreciation for the vehicle we all enjoy.  My point is that someone who has put in the effort to make something available for the community should know better than to disparage others who do so as other than equally contributing to the best of their ability.

Ted

ted

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2014, 09:37:38 PM »
Wow! All of this is amazing.  I haven't been to a Muncie Nats since 2008, when (for 3 years in a row, '06-'08) I judged P.A., plus E.D.'s the OTS and Classic events.  In those years we had the banquet at a nice venue in downtown Muncie - I forget the name of the place, but it was pretty classy.

Now I understand they have the awards "banquet" in some sort of tent on the grounds of the Academy of Multirotors and ARFs.  What's up with that?

Sure am glad I bailed-out back then.

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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2014, 10:32:17 PM »
A friend builds race cars for vintage races. Rich folks. Very very rich folks. Million dollar and multi million dollar cars racing hard enough to flip. I have seen them flip. Ferrari GTOs. Bugattis. Ford GT40s (the real ones.) Cobras. And so on. Remember Peter Revson and Stirling Moss. I met them at one of these. Hired guns. They raced. Banquets never held on the last day of the meet. Lobster (we don't need lobster) and champagne served up on a convenient night. Trophies given out at the field at the end of the races.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2014, 10:37:20 PM »
I love ritual too. The NATs has some of that. The six day intense build. Or five day. Appearance judging. A practice day to get juices flowing. And so on. But perhaps we need to acknowledge our majority aging or aged participants. And the shrinkage of our numbers.

Offline the original Steve Smith

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2014, 11:17:47 PM »
I agree with Bill's suggestion - move the banquet to Friday night with the goal of increased attendance.  I usually have to work the Sunday after the NATS (Retail!) so I cannot stay Saturday night.  I stay as late as I am needed on Saturday.  This year I was not chosen to judge the top five or the Walker Cup so I packed up and headed home early on Saturday.  I believe if we move the banquet to Friday night we will have more attendance - I know I will be there.  As far as the location, I understand the attraction if it is less costly (I hope) to use the Museum facility but I recall several years ago when it was at the other venue it felt more "classy" and more like an awards banquet to me.  I know this is not a vote, just giving my opinion.

Thanks!

Steve
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2014, 11:20:58 PM »
FWIW, as I understand it, the (comparatively) lower cost banquet in the museum annex was, in no small part, the result of prior concerns about the cost of the banquets previously held at a downtown hotel with cloth napkins, a nice venue and courses "served" at the table vice the current "stand in line to be served pasta" format.  The bottom line of the whole rigamarole is the problem of producing a nice sit down dinner and awards ceremony for a comparatively small group of people of varying means to celebrate the outcome of an event of some importance to their own concept of "something worth doing" with one's talents and ambitions.  Doing so, as we've all come to know either from the fancy expensive version to the less fancy but still costly in many respects version is "not" an "easy" matter.

Whether it is worth finding some constructive and affordable "in between" formula satisfactory to all is anyone's guess.  What makes finding a solution less rather than more possible is criticizing those who have volunteered to try and find a solution and make the thing happen year after year.

One obvious solution to the cost problem is to shorten the event.  Anyone vote for going back to the old way of Junior, Senior and Open only; a couple of days of qualifying followed by one day of "finals" with the highest individual score taking the big trophy?  We could do the beauty judging before the first official flight, have the Walker flyoff in the afternoon following the one flight finals and the banquet that night.  the whole thing could be done in three days.  Of course, spending a couple of thousand dollars or more for one or two flights for the majority of contestants was one of the reasons we decided to venture into the format we mostly enjoy today...including skill classes, beginner, intermediate, advanced and open, ...plus expert, two days of qualifying, a semi-finals including a majority of the contestants plus a finals for all the Gold: and also, thrown in,  a nice afternoon get-together for a pilots'  meeting and appearance judging and several days of comradery with one another.  And then we eat, BS and award the stuff and thank those who made it possible.

Or something in between.  Lots of options.  None of them guaranteed to satisfy everyone.  All of which need to be administered by somebody able to accept both thank yous and criticism.

Ted

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2014, 11:39:00 PM »
Quote
What makes finding a solution less rather than more possible is criticizing those who have volunteered to try and find a solution and make the thing happen year after year.

You can STOP Chastising me at anytime now. We got your message.
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Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2014, 01:54:19 AM »
" One obvious solution to the cost problem is to shorten the event.  Anyone vote for going back to the old way "

Actually Ted,

I'd be in favor in adding in another round to Top 20 day. Make it 3 Rounds with 1 throw away round - and yes everyone can jump on me for that because I blew my first round in Top 20..

I think it makes more sense to have continuity in the event from Qualifying to Top 20 to Finals.

There is PLENTY that could be done from an administration perspective to improve HOW the Nats are Run.

Tablets linked to a closed network - each judges score instantly uploaded / tabulated and displayed over a digital signage board within seconds of the flight ending.

The issues isn't the people running it - the issue is we are small minority group with limited financial resources to invest into serious infrastructure like other PRO events.  - the event is built around Volunteers like the aforementioned S.Fancher.. 

I've been involved in running Nationals in the Past ; Watched my father ED 4 Nationals - and its the same everywhere, people will complain. So those who do, step down, and more step up to fill the void yet people still complain.



Sparky ; Why are you concerned about the Nats Banquet ? My understand was this was your Last foray at Stunt at the Nats.




 


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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2014, 06:36:35 AM »
" One obvious solution to the cost problem is to shorten the event.  Anyone vote for going back to the old way "

Actually Ted,

I'd be in favor in adding in another round to Top 20 day. Make it 3 Rounds with 1 throw away round - and yes everyone can jump on me for that because I blew my first round in Top 20..


I am sure this would have helped both of us but I prefer the 2 flights, all or nothing, way we do it now. It is defiantly the single hardest day in stunt each year.

Derek

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2014, 07:19:42 AM »
I am sure this would have helped both of us but I prefer the 2 flights, all or nothing, way we do it now. It is defiantly the single hardest day in stunt each year.

Derek

It appears that way because there is no throw away on Friday.  But I think and feel from experience on Saturday, when you have a throw away, it is still harder to actually WIN open than it is to qualify to fly for the win.  I have been there several times now. There has been a time or two you could have given me 10 throw aways and there was still no way my caliber of flying was gonna win on those days.   The throw away helps your mind ease a little but when you look at the field you are in well,,,it feels just as hard. But somehow I am more relaxed on Top5 day.  I dont know why that is but it is...and I like it!!   ;D ;D  Derek, lets get back in there next year and give 'em hell!!!!  I cant wait!!!!  HAHAHA!  I have lost my mind!! 
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Offline Mike Ferguson

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2014, 07:33:15 AM »
  Do to that puts all the processing (score sheets, etc) Tuesday night. The only reason they can do Appearance Judging on Monday now is that the processing has been streamlined, but trying to come up with absolutely everything between Tuesday at 5ish and Wednesday at 8 AM is a real problem.

   Brett

Is the reason for that simply manual data entry, or something more?

If it's manual data entry (particularly into something like Excel) it would seem to me like a macro could be written to automate that process.

I write macros pretty much everyday as part of my job, so I'd be happy to take a look at the current process if that's the case to see what I could do to help out.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2014, 08:56:59 AM »
The program that runs the Nat's now does that. As a past Nat's ED, I wanted the extra day between processing and first official flight in case something went wrong. If everything goes properly, it can all be done and printed by bed time Monday night.

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2014, 10:32:03 AM »
Is the reason for that simply manual data entry, or something more?

If it's manual data entry (particularly into something like Excel) it would seem to me like a macro could be written to automate that process.

I write macros pretty much everyday as part of my job, so I'd be happy to take a look at the current process if that's the case to see what I could do to help out.

Remind me to send you the macro.  I'll be able to do so in a couple of weeks. 
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2014, 01:22:15 PM »
The program that runs the Nat's now does that. As a past Nat's ED, I wanted the extra day between processing and first official flight in case something went wrong. If everything goes properly, it can all be done and printed by bed time Monday night.

    I think that having a recovery day is just good sense. You can't put yourself in the position that if one thing goes wrong in the middle of the night, it causes a crisis.  There were something like 75 entries to process, it would take only one small glitch. So I don't think it is a good idea to remove the extra day.

   Brett

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2014, 01:32:49 PM »
FWIW, as I understand it, the (comparatively) lower cost banquet in the museum annex was, in no small part, the result of prior concerns about the cost of the banquets previously held at a downtown hotel with cloth napkins, a nice venue and courses "served" at the table vice the current "stand in line to be served pasta" format.  The bottom line of the whole rigamarole is the problem of producing a nice sit down dinner and awards ceremony for a comparatively small group of people of varying means to celebrate the outcome of an event of some importance to their own concept of "something worth doing" with one's talents and ambitions.  Doing so, as we've all come to know either from the fancy expensive version to the less fancy but still costly in many respects version is "not" an "easy" matter.

Whether it is worth finding some constructive and affordable "in between" formula satisfactory to all is anyone's guess.  What makes finding a solution less rather than more possible is criticizing those who have volunteered to try and find a solution and make the thing happen year after year.

    There's also the notion that it gives the ladies associated with the event one night to get dressed up.

    Bill has a good idea. I would have to agree with PJ, etc, that the banquet appears to have gotten to be a pretty sad affair. The first year in the "shed" (actually the Claude McCullogh Educational Center right next to the AMA Museum) it was relatively well attended but it appears to have dropped to nearly nothing. I had no problem with the food, it was actually pretty good, it was run nicely by Bob McDonald - who, I might add, did an exceptional job throughout the week, with technical help from Curt Nixon - and the venue is not that bad. But it was very poorly attended and I think something pretty much has to be done.

   A barbeque at the L-Pad on Saturday afternoon, maybe, starting immediately after flying (and allowing a post-NATs airplane swapping/test flying like we used to do) might work. Having it on Friday seems viable, maybe the same deal, a barbeque immediately after Top 20 (which is almost always done by noon), after or during which the Walker Cup Friday afternoon practice and fly-arounds could happen.  You could even have a pig roast or something like that, have someone crank that bad boy up at 5 in the morning and eat at 3 PM.  The obvious issue I can see is that this now puts a burden for the logistics on the locals like Allen Goff to figure it all out.

    Brett

Offline frank williams

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2014, 01:33:22 PM »
Top twenty (with two rounds) is done by noon on Friday .... maybe take a lunch break and fly the top five on Friday afternoon and have the banquet (barbeque)  Friday evening to celebrate the winners.

Ted has a good point, that by the time you invest several thousand dollars for the trip to the Nats, you really want something more than just one flight to make it worth the trip.  The Wed Thur. qualiflying makes sure that every entrant gets at least four flights for the time and expense involved.  But through the years, waiting around for the Sat night banquet, was never an option due to the extra days of hotel and vacation time.  If you aren't one of the top fivers, then Sat was a driving day.

Goodyear racing (controlline .15's) through the years evolved into only one qualifying race at the Nats.  Thats one 3 minute race for your trip to the Nats.  When there were 70-80 entries at the Nats, it probably made sense, but when it got down to 15 or so entrants it wasn't so good.  Proposals to change to at least two attempts were unfortunately met with contempt.  Now, there is no Goodyear at the Nats.

Frank

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2014, 02:37:00 PM »
   There's also the notion that it gives the ladies associated with the event one night to get dressed up.

    Bill has a good idea. I would have to agree with PJ, etc, that the banquet appears to have gotten to be a pretty sad affair. The first year in the "shed" (actually the Claude McCullogh Educational Center right next to the AMA Museum) it was relatively well attended but it appears to have dropped to nearly nothing. I had no problem with the food, it was actually pretty good, it was run nicely by Bob McDonald - who, I might add, did an exceptional job throughout the week, with technical help from Curt Nixon - and the venue is not that bad. But it was very poorly attended and I think something pretty much has to be done.

   A barbeque at the L-Pad on Saturday afternoon, maybe, starting immediately after flying (and allowing a post-NATs airplane swapping/test flying like we used to do) might work. Having it on Friday seems viable, maybe the same deal, a barbeque immediately after Top 20 (which is almost always done by noon), after or during which the Walker Cup Friday afternoon practice and fly-arounds could happen.  You could even have a pig roast or something like that, have someone crank that bad boy up at 5 in the morning and eat at 3 PM.  The obvious issue I can see is that this now puts a burden for the logistics on the locals like Allen Goff to figure it all out.

    Brett

Good ideas. We could all eat steak and potatoes for less than we spend on the banquet. Plus the bonus of getting to fly planes in a fun post competition environment.

Derek

Online James Mills

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2014, 09:03:28 PM »
Good ideas. We could all eat steak and potatoes for less than we spend on the banquet. Plus the bonus of getting to fly planes in a fun post competition environment.

Derek
Maybe we could allocate the boy scouts grill set up.
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Online Doug Moon

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2014, 09:25:12 PM »
I am liking that Friday afternoon option.  Sounds good to me.  Now who is gonna drag their smoker to the nats......??   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2014, 09:48:36 PM »
" One obvious solution to the cost problem is to shorten the event.  Anyone vote for going back to the old way "

Actually Ted,

I'd be in favor in adding in another round to Top 20 day. Make it 3 Rounds with 1 throw away round - and yes everyone can jump on me for that because I blew my first round in Top 20..

I think it makes more sense to have continuity in the event from Qualifying to Top 20 to Finals.

There is PLENTY that could be done from an administration perspective to improve HOW the Nats are Run.

Tablets linked to a closed network - each judges score instantly uploaded / tabulated and displayed over a digital signage board within seconds of the flight ending.

The issues isn't the people running it - the issue is we are small minority group with limited financial resources to invest into serious infrastructure like other PRO events.  - the event is built around Volunteers like the aforementioned S.Fancher.. 

I've been involved in running Nationals in the Past ; Watched my father ED 4 Nationals - and its the same everywhere, people will complain. So those who do, step down, and more step up to fill the void yet people still complain.



Sparky ; Why are you concerned about the Nats Banquet ? My understand was this was your Last foray at Stunt at the Nats.




 




Hi  PJ,  So sorry we missed seeing you and getting a chance to meet your lovely bride.  The 50th anniversary cruise was something we'd been planning with the kids and grandkids for some time.

My comment about shortening the Nats was totally tongue in cheek.  I was among those who recognized the need to make the expensive Nats trip a better experience for those who are still striving to get into the later rounds.  The multi day format is a huge improvement over the old system where it was entirely possible for an entrant to spend several thousand dollars and, if Mother Nature didn't cooperate, end up flying one qualifying round flight of...hopefully...less than eight minutes.  The format has clearly accomplished the intent to get more bang for the bucks for more people.

The intent of my harangue was to get people talking about ways to retain the longer experience for everyone without throwing the "finals" baby out with the bath water and end up with a more affordable experience for all.  I see there are some interesting thoughts popping up along those lines and that's exactly what my rant was about.  Less complaining and finger pointing and more attempts to refine an exciting format into one that retains the excitement but makes it a better and more affordable alternative for more stunt fans.

Hope your bride and yourself enjoyed the trip and the nats.

Ted

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2014, 11:32:52 PM »
Sparky ; Why are you concerned about the Nats Banquet ?

I'm not
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Offline Mike Ferguson

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2014, 07:23:46 AM »
Remind me to send you the macro.  I'll be able to do so in a couple of weeks. 

Thanks. Best of luck at the Worlds!

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2014, 07:44:07 AM »
The Banquet was a point of discussion at the PAMPA meeting this year. Jim Vornholt and I were in agreement that the Banquet is pretty pathetic now. He ran the numbers and found out that the cost would be almost identical if we went back to the Horizon Center in Downtown Muncie. We are looking into different options for next year to try to make it more appealing. Maybe this will breathe some life back into the Banquet.

This year was the first time I have ever come to the Nats and not gone to the Banquet. After hearing that we would again be in the AMA garage, we would not have any kind bar on premises, and the fact that I did not make the top 5 all contributed to my decision to not attend. For the first time in many years I actually got one day of rest before returning to work on Monday following the Nats. I will give up this one day and the extra money it cost to stay if the Banquet is worth going to in the future.

Derek 

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2014, 08:33:34 AM »
How long does it take to get the final score on top twenty day and why top twenty?  Couldn't it be cut down to top ten for Open and top five for the others.   Then a break for the top five while Jr & Sr fly.   Weather permitting should be able to get top five in with the Walker Cup.   There would be more people maybe staying to see it as well as enjoy it.   Should still be time to shower and dress up for the banquet.  But, I have not attended the NATS for several years so take this idea as my thoughts.
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Offline Joseph Patterson

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2014, 10:08:51 AM »
      I agree with what Derek said earlier. I believe it is very important and nice to recognize in a more formal setting the winners and give them the honor they so deserve. It is also a time of breaking bread and fellowship with our friends. My wife and I went to the banquet last year and really enjoyed ourselves, although I did not think the food was very good and the room was crowded and hot. I planned on attending this year, but after the Walker fly off my flying buddy, Brent Rogillio, and I decided to go home. We had been there since Fri. the 11Th- were tired and anxious to get home. Next year, Lord willing, we will arrive on Monday and stay through everything. I would be willing to see the banquet location changed to a better location even if it cost a little more. On another note, I don't know if the Nat's could be shortened any further. The shrinking amount of contestants may determine if things can be more streamlined. I don't agree with Doc about going to a top 10/top 5 format. The fliers in my opinion are all so close in talent and abilities in the TOP 20 that we need to let'em shoot it out!! All these guys have invested thousands of hours building, finishing, practising, competing, plus the costs of traveling thousands of miles. It would be in my opinion, for what its worth, a disservice to the competitors to reduce the Open format as it now stands.
     I want to congratulate Dave Fitzgerald on the win, and  Doug Moon, Paul W., Bret Buck, and Howard for some really great flying. Also congratulations to the Advance, Expert, Classic, OTS, Intermediate, and Beginner winners.
      Doug   

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2014, 07:29:10 PM »
Derek should do the post Nats barbecue.  You should taste the XXX hot sauce he made.
Steve

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2014, 11:17:26 PM »
Is the reason for that simply manual data entry, or something more?

If it's manual data entry (particularly into something like Excel) it would seem to me like a macro could be written to automate that process.

I write macros pretty much everyday as part of my job, so I'd be happy to take a look at the current process if that's the case to see what I could do to help out.

   Howard would welcome you input - he has been practically begging someone to look at his stuff and to help with the NATs program. In a few weeks, of course.

     The issue is generating all the score sheets.

    Brett

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2014, 12:21:19 AM »
It should be pretty simple to get a good BBQ place to cater the banquet and they'd probably be able to suggest a decent building to rent. I don't go to the NATS, but I'd think that after a week of being outside all day, it would be nice to get inside and some A/C, particularly since bad weather would really be a disaster for BBQ at the L-pad. I wouldn't expect the AMA would be keen on alcoholic beverages on-site for insurance reasons.  010! Steve
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Nat's stunt Banquet
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2014, 07:23:02 AM »
I wouldn't expect the AMA would be keen on alcoholic beverages on-site for insurance reasons.  010! Steve

I've been told by a few friends of mine who have been to IRCHA that there is an abundance of alcohol on site during that event...I guess the AMA likes to turn the other shoulder during that event.

I'm all for a better setting for the banquet. When I was there three years ago, I don't remember it being all that terrible, at least you guys were able to have drinks...
Matt Colan


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