News:


  • June 21, 2025, 03:02:03 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Nat's participation, then and now.  (Read 5369 times)

Offline Derek Barry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2835
Nat's participation, then and now.
« on: July 27, 2018, 04:51:01 AM »
I will start this post by addressing the elephant in the room. Yes, attendance was very low at the 2018 Nat's. So low in fact, the program only allowed 16 to move into the Open semifinals.That number had to be manually overwritten to get the top 20 flyers that we are all accustomed to. There, I said it, now let's move on.

Personally, I am not worried about the Nat's, yet. The turnout was low this year, but I counted about 15-20 "regular's" that weren't there this year, either because of the world championships, or personal reasons. I have heard of another 10-15 that plan on coming to the 2019 Nat's. Some of them, for the first time. I expect next year to be more "normal".

I too remember the glory days of the Nat's. When Dad and I first showed up on the scene in 1990 we were blown away by the number of pilots, spectators, and vendors. What happened??? Well, obviously some people are no longer with us, and others have simply retired from stunt. The newer, younger generation of people just aren't as interested in model airplanes as we are. That being said, on social media I see hundreds of people just beginning to fly, I find this encouraging.
 I think Muncie has grown accustomed to having us there, so much so, that it's like we aren't there at all. There is no excitement, promotion, or even knowledge about what goes on at AMA headquarters. We do get $5 off at Applebee's, but that's about it. In Lawrenceville, IL there was something about the Nat's on the front page of the local paper almost every day. There was a carnival kind of atmosphere in town, and many locals came out to watch the events. This is the kind of thing that draws a crowd, and makes an event exciting. Do I think the Nat's should travel again? I'm not sure that it should, that it's possible, or that the AMA would allow it. But maybe, we could work with some of the locals to promote the entire month of the Nat's. The past two years we haven't even had the boy scouts there to cook for us...

 I am willing to do whatever it takes to keep the event I love going. I hope everyone who enjoys competing at the best contest on the planet will do the same.

Derek

Offline Bill Morell

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 956
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 05:24:55 AM »
Getting the Boy Scouts is going to be tough. They have changed the name to "Scouting BSA". All because of the PC world we unfortunately live in today. Their sponsorship with the Mormon Church is over and they lost big $$$ from that. In our lifetime I think Scouting will be gone.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 06:41:37 AM by Bill Morell »
Bill Morell
It wasn't that you could and others couldn't, its that you did and others didn't.
Vietnam 72-73
  Better to have it and not need it than it is to need it and not have it.

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6713
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2018, 05:47:18 AM »
Derek thanks for bringing this up.  Just yesterday I finished the Nats article where I try to describe in more detail ''what went down" on the issue of the Top 16.  Since we had never seen this before we weren't looking for it and in fact couldn't have even had a clue of it until the final entries closed at the time we were arriving at the 180 to set up for the meeting-which was another nightmare as we could not hook up to the building system.  We actually had to load everything over to the buildings' own computer system just minutes before the meeting started.  There is a built in work-around to the low entry in the very first few steps of the program but none of us remembered or thought of it and we again, never imagined we'd have an issue.  The break-off number is 32.  We had 30-31 Open entries.  All went well with the Qualifying rounds.  The issue didn't appear until we went for the Top 20 later in the week.  It was then impossible to go back and start over.  We didn't want this to be the first "TOP 16" Nats (yes the question was asked) so Darrell took the only only reasonable action he could have.  As is turned out it all worked OK and we can't see that anything was affected much.  Being one of those four myself directly involved I can't see how I got damaged in any way.
I too agree this was an anomaly, at least this time about the low entry.  I believe we will be back up to normal levels next year, or at least enough to avoid the computer issue.  However should it not happen we KNOW what to look out for.  I have mentioned in the article if and when we reach some point where the turnout remains low we might want to look into changing the way we do things.  One way is to fly EVERYBODY three days, six flights, total of best four.  Then you can take THAT top five to Saturday.  This would simply eliminate a step that I'm sure was necessary in days of 70-100 entries but becomes sort of needless-to fly two days of qualifying just to drop off 5-8 pilots.  Something to think about anyway.
I'm not sure about how to get Muncie worked up.  AMA has been there for years now, they are used to it.  Also the Nats goes on all summer there.  We only are a small sliver of it.  The big winners are the hotels and restaurants on the strip.  Not much else.  I'm just grateful we have the site we do have there which is still the best on the planet for what we do.  Since the AMA is about ready to rip up the LPad and replace it new-I expect we will be there a while.  We even plan to try to sell AMA on another Worlds there on the new pad.  Lets stay the course!  Oh BTW-I asked about the Boy Scouts when we were planning.  Apparently these vendors work on a contract from AMA.  Since the BS backed out a couple years ago and broke their contract the AMA didn't sign a new one with them........
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94
 Investing in a Gaza resort if the billionaire doesn't take all my social security check

Offline Joseph Daly

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 257
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2018, 06:32:15 AM »
Derek,
Excellent post! And I am like you about doing whatever it takes to keep this great sport going. For those who have never attended a NATS, you are really missing a lot and you should put it on your list of things to do. For one you gain a tremendous amount of flying experience, 50 flights during NATS week are worth a couple hundred practice flights! I am speaking from experience. The second thing is everyone is very helpful and willing to give you the shirt off your back. If someone is having a problem, there is always someone willing to help. Examples someone lending a motor or even a plane so the other person can compete. Not many competitions have that type fellowship, were people are willing to help their competitor improve. Also were else can you get advice and fly with the best Stunt pilots in the world and they are very willing to help. This last thing is you make really good friends!

We can continue to make the NATS the best stunt contest in the world - It is up to us to do so!

Thanks
Joe

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7966
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2018, 09:45:55 AM »
I’ve noticed over the years that attendance in combat wanes in good economic times. Bob Hunt says that’s true of all hobbies.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline peabody

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2866
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2018, 10:07:03 AM »
Howard makes a point//////when I was in the motorcycle business, tough times were the best.....kind of an "eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die" attitude.
Good times brought more difficult retail times.....folk were replacing stuff they had neglected in the hard times.

Offline Mark Weiss

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 156
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2018, 10:13:53 AM »
Derek,
Thanks for your post. Seven years ago, we were provided with three incredible circles at Triple Tree, during a week that for 30 years only allowed R/C. Yes, it took some work and cooperation and now we have established a great stunt camp and contest. I am stating the obvious for I know there are always two paths: step back and let what happens happen, or step forward and try to do something about it. I see three issues.


First, I like Joe Daly's comments about getting more current flyers there at our national championships for all the reasons he stated.
Second, add a very important and simple task to the PAMPA members program. Advertise locally for all contests and have  a trainer there for the attendees to fly with a coach. Third, I emailed and met with the AMA current Acting Executive Director, Chad Budreau, to get one simple thing done while we were there. It got done, and while minor, it was an awareness victory.....getting the grass cut at the L pad. No, that will not increase the number of attendees but it did raise their level of awareness. We should not expect much unless we are seriously active in preserving this terrific part of aero modelling.


You know I will help in any way I can. I hope this was not too far off base. Just trying to help

Mark

Offline Fredvon4

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2101
  • Central Texas
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2018, 10:45:23 AM »
IN my 63 years we have had very up and very down economic times. I have lived in a lot of different areas of the world and USA during these times and from what I read in papers or heard on TV....there are areas IN GOODTIMES that prosper and areas that suffer:

Bicycles....can now afford a car
Motor cycles, The low end commuter bikes see above
Fast Food,,,,( now going into sit down places)
VETs associations with drinking (VFW, American legion etc) and Local bars and pubs... more people working and not sitting idle

many different hobbies....low cost time fillers replaced by higher cost fun requiring less time to fulfill ....for example build and fly a model vs buy new ski gear and spend weekend on the mountain with family

These are observations from my own life and as stated noticed in print and radio in my travels
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7966
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2018, 11:01:48 AM »
Derek,
Thanks for your post. Seven years ago, we were provided with three incredible circles at Triple Tree, during a week that for 30 years only allowed R/C. Yes, it took some work and cooperation and now we have established a great stunt camp and contest. I am stating the obvious for I know there are always two paths: step back and let what happens happen, or step forward and try to do something about it. I see three issues.


First, I like Joe Daly's comments about getting more current flyers there at our national championships for all the reasons he stated.
Second, add a very important and simple task to the PAMPA members program. Advertise locally for all contests and have  a trainer there for the attendees to fly with a coach. Third, I emailed and met with the AMA current Acting Executive Director, Chad Budreau, to get one simple thing done while we were there. It got done, and while minor, it was an awareness victory.....getting the grass cut at the L pad. No, that will not increase the number of attendees but it did raise their level of awareness. We should not expect much unless we are seriously active in preserving this terrific part of aero modelling.


You know I will help in any way I can. I hope this was not too far off base. Just trying to help

Mark


When I saw Derek's post, the first thing I thought was, "We should ask Mark Weiss.  He'd know what to do to promote stunt."

The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline FLOYD CARTER

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4503
    • owner
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2018, 12:31:30 PM »
My opinion follows:

Nats participation, overall, was much better back in the Navy Nats, which rotated around such that more flyers of all kinds could attend.

The fixed Muncie Nats favor those within a couple hundred miles of Muncie, and pretty much exclude those out west, because of the expense and time involved just to enter.

The top C/L flyers are where they are, partly because they have the time and money to follow the Nats and other contests year-long where ever they are held.

I was able to enter in two Nats, only because I lived nearby (Chicago and L.A.).  I can no longer justify the travel.  I am in the majority.
91 years, but still going
AMA #796  SAM #188  LSF #020

Offline EddyR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2574
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2018, 01:08:15 PM »
 What Floyd said has a lot to do with what is happening at he Nats. First location and then those that have the income to support a long trip with all its cost.  Higher income and time is needed to be at big meets. To just show up and see the same top guys fly does get boring. The stunt hobby has gotten to be at professional level and if you do not have a stunt plane that is of this high level you are just wasting you time.
 We are not going to ever see the large crowds of many years ago as time has moved on and CL flying has gotten to be to much trouble as others have mentioned. I attended many nats years ago as they were close to where I lived. Most people today do not have any place to build a model airplane,RC or CL. This and regulation is going to make people say why bother.
EddyR
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7052
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2018, 04:36:26 PM »
I think part of the problem with Nat's Month is that it is a month long.  I think we have lost a lot of participation because people fly more than just Stunt.  Why they would do that is a mystery.  When the NATS were held all at the same time and place you could fly more events, now you have to choose.  Just an opinion.

ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7052
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2018, 06:30:39 PM »
Hi Ken:

The Nats is much longer than a month; it takes up nearly the whole summer. But, there are more disciplines than there were years ago, and more divisions within those disciplines as well. To hold all the contested events in one place at one time like back in the Navy Nats days would be impossible.

Bob Hunt

Good point but admit it, those Navy NATS were a blast.  If there was some way to shorten it, even by a day it would help but I don't see how.  Maybe if we moved qualifying to a regional or something.  I am sure if there is a better way the "powers that be" will find it.  I certainly don't see any lack of opinions here!

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14475
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2018, 07:12:43 PM »
The Nats is much longer than a month; it takes up nearly the whole summer. But, there are more disciplines than there were years ago, and more divisions within those disciplines as well. To hold all the contested events in one place at one time like back in the Navy Nats days would be impossible.

  But I think that is a huge part of why Derek's recollection is different now. The last time I went to a NATs where there were significant number of "other events" going on at the same time and place was Lawrenceville in 93. Even then, no FF, it was out somewhere else, and the facilities at Lawrenceville were large but not very good. We all got 30 point and the judges turned their backs during landings because the runway was undercut along the edges  about 3/4", so you just had to plunk it down whereever you could to keep it from running off the edge.

   Trying to run the NATs all at once in the same place over a mere week was a completely nutty idea that always led to compromises, and complaints, but was absolutely wonderful. The same thing that makes it crazy also made it memorable. By any measure, having the Muncie site mostly to ourselves makes for better facilities and a more fair contest, but it also takes the magic out of it in some ways. It is definitely not as special as it was.

     There are any number of other factors going into this, too, and they don't have anything to do with local promotion, or any specific failing in the part of the AMA, the administrators, etc. Ted noted it the other day, the energy seems to be going out of it. There's much more going on than just the fact that it is spread out over months, but you have to admit that trying to put 3000 people and hundreds of events all in one week in one place to the extent possible has a certain glorious insanity to it.

     Brett

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7966
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2018, 07:19:05 PM »
Since we had never seen this before we weren't looking for it and in fact couldn't have even had a clue of it until the final entries closed at the time we were arriving at the 180 to set up for the meeting...There is a built in work-around to the low entry in the very first few steps of the program but none of us remembered or thought of it and we again, never imagined we'd have an issue...  I believe we will be back up to normal levels next year, or at least enough to avoid the computer issue.  However should it not happen we KNOW what to look out for.

The computer issue?  In February I sent Darrell and Mark Troutman, then his deputy, the Nats tabulation program and explanatory materials, including an explanation and simulation of how circle distribution and number of guys advancing to the top "20" worked, with the admonishment, "I recommend that you start practicing now."  I got no response.  In April I sent Dave, who had taken over as deputy, the same materials, including the warning, "Somebody needs to get familiar with the program pretty soon."  In May I resent the package to Darrell and Dave, adding, "You are all up to speed on the program, I presume.  If you arrive at the Nats unfamiliar with it, you will be in a pickle."  In June I sent the package to John Hill when I learned that he was helping out.  John familiarized himself with it pretty well, but other folks who didn't understand it took over and spent the week of the Nats finding surprises and improvising changes. As a result, the Open top 20 flight orders were not randomly drawn, the posters were mislabeled and contained errors, and the Open placings were wrong.  Any issues of process or formatting could have been discussed and resolved before the Nats.  That nobody looked at them beforehand was rather annoying. 

I am guilty of not speaking up at the pilots' meeting.  I could have prevented the top-20 surprise.  I considered volunteering to explain how the process works at the meeting, but I didn't. 

I have mentioned in the article if and when we reach some point where the turnout remains low we might want to look into changing the way we do things.  One way is to fly EVERYBODY three days, six flights, total of best four.  Then you can take THAT top five to Saturday.  This would simply eliminate a step that I'm sure was necessary in days of 70-100 entries but becomes sort of needless-to fly two days of qualifying just to drop off 5-8 pilots.  Something to think about anyway.

We looked into changing the way we do things, and we changed it.  In 2012, we had the rather silly situation of picking the top 20 of 23 guys in Advanced qualifying rounds.  One of the four Advanced circles sent 5 out of 5 to the finals.  Then, for a couple of years, we had three events: Advanced, Expert, and Open. Not knowing how many people would show up for each event, we (mainly Steve Yampolsky) came up with a method of picking an appropriate number of circles for qualifying rounds, picking a reasonable number of people to advance to the Friday rounds, and keeping our traditional Nats format.  Dropping Expert simplified the problem, but I incorporated the method into the tabulation program, so it automatically does something sensible for any number of contestants.  We had 20 contestants in Advanced at this year's Nats.  Advanced qualifying rounds were on three circles, and four guys from each circle went on to the finals.  Had the program been used for Open, 16 of the 28 contestants-- four from each of four circles-- would have gone on to the semifinals. 

Below is a graph of the formulae that's been in the tabulation program for the past four years or so.  For up to eight contestants in an event, we use one circle.  For 9 to 16, two circles.  For 15 to 24, three circles.  For 25 and above, four circles. The green line is the number of people advancing to the next round (labeled "semifinals").  I think this gives pretty good results, and it preserves the Nats format we've used for many years.  If anybody wants to discuss these formulae, please do so before Friday of the next Nats.  The sorta-animated simulation file I sent to the guys running the Nats is too big to post here, but if you send me your email address, I'll send it to you.



The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7966
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2018, 07:30:46 PM »
If there was some way to shorten it, even by a day it would help but I don't see how.

There is an extra day in the stunt schedule between appearance judging and the first day of qualifying rounds.  This was needed when people had to make up scoresheets and other forms by hand, but now that's automated.  We use the extra day for old time and classic, but they could be switched to another day. 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Frank Imbriaco

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 952
  • At the 69 Willow Grove NATS with J.D. FALCON II
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2018, 07:42:00 PM »
Willow Grove, Dallas, Glenview and Los Alimitos.

Those Naval Air Stations and their chronicled events.

For  those of us who remember, magical.

What a time.
.
A few other places, too- notably Olathe.
 
How'd they do it ?

It's nice that Muncie exists and let's all hope it prospers for many more years.






Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1446
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2018, 08:22:51 PM »
Maybe the Nats attendance is down because so many fliers go to Brodaks just two weeks prior? I've had many fliers tell me that Brodaks is much more fun and given a choice would prefer to spend their time and money going to Brodaks...

Offline Paul Walker

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2018, 09:58:12 PM »
I occasionally look back to old issues of Stunt News Nat's reports. I compare the open entrants then to now. There are 6 to 8 who competed in the 80's who still fly now. The 90's added a few more.

Then I looked at the entry level. 91 Nat's had 37 open entrants, the 94 Nats had only 26! Look back at 2017 where we had 40 open entrants.

So what happened this year is nothing that we have not seen before. There are always reasons why some "regulars" don't show, and people retire from competition, but it seems that there is not a quantum drop in attendance.

We continue to see new faces;
Mat Colan, Chris Rudd, Joe Dalay, Joe Gilbert, "Chris Cox", even though he flew here years ago, Richard Huff, and others I am sure I missed. I sure hope this trend continues, and we find new faces in Open moving up from Advanced, right Don Cranfil!

I don't see a big change in the Open Attendance at the Nat's. There's ups and downs, but we still are where we were in the 80's and 90's, and still have a few of those dinosaurs still hanging on!


Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14475
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2018, 10:22:15 PM »
I don't see a big change in the Open Attendance at the Nat's. There's ups and downs, but we still are where we were in the 80's and 90's, and still have a few of those dinosaurs still hanging on!

   What struck me when I did a guesstimate of the average age of the participants at several big contests a while back, and I came up with something very close to the age you would expect, assuming you were only talking about adults and cut it off at 70.

     Derek sees the same thing Ted observed, and to be honest, what I have felt myself- a lot of the energy, for lack of a better word, seems to have gone out of it. I can make a sort of vague argument over why it might be, but I think I need to think it through a bit more before sharing it. Some of it is fairly obvious, of course - how many times can one haul oneself 2400 miles across the country for two weeks, just for (most people) 4 flights? West coast participation has dribbled off to just certain die-hards of your acquaintance. Skip might also have a point, too, people who know they don't have a real chance of winning have alternatives and that is in the same "drawing area" as the NATs (figure 1 day's drive).

   Just speaking for myself, my energy for the NATs has been really waning. The last few times, I started off doing OK and more-or-less concentrating relatively well, but as the week wore on, I couldn't really bring myself to give it my full attention. Particularly in 14 and 15, where I was completely checked out during, of all things, the flyoff - and it showed!I had done really well in the Top 20 both days, but particularly in 15, I knew as soon as I got out of the car Saturday morning that I was dead meat, not from the (very impressive) competition, but just due to my own motivation, or rather lack thereof. It got worse in 16, it happened on Top 20 day.

    One day of it is about all I can seem to manage any more. That's just me, of course, and I have had other issues that didn't help.

     Brett

Offline Jason Greer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 487
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2018, 12:02:04 AM »
I had the best intentions of making the Nats this year, but it wasn’t to be. I’ve missed the past four years now, and each year I miss it more and more. The last couple of years I haven’t felt like I had a competitive model and my flying has certainly not been competitive. I want to get more active again and improve to the point of reaching the top 20. Hopefully by next summer, I’ll be more prepared and not feel internally that I’m just getting in the way of the other open competitors.

Jason
El Dorado, AR
AMA 518858

Offline Derek Barry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2835
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2018, 06:08:32 AM »
I had the best intentions of making the Nats this year, but it wasn’t to be. I’ve missed the past four years now, and each year I miss it more and more. The last couple of years I haven’t felt like I had a competitive model and my flying has certainly not been competitive. I want to get more active again and improve to the point of reaching the top 20. Hopefully by next summer, I’ll be more prepared and not feel internally that I’m just getting in the way of the other open competitors.

Jason

Well, first of all, you would never be in the way of anyone. Even if you leave home not feeling like you are competing at your highest level, there is something about the Muncie air that adds a little magic to your pattern. You also know that you would have at least 3 days of practice before you ever fly your first official. I am certain that you could find some top level pilots to help you get your pattern tuned up. I would be more than happy to watch a few patterns and give you my advice.

I really hope to see you next year!

Derek

Offline Matt Colan

  • N-756355
  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3527
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2018, 09:28:36 AM »
I wish I could have made the NATS this year but due to leave balance and financial constraints, I couldn’t make it happen. For next year I’m torn between committing to the NATS or the team trials. The NATS is by far my favorite contest on the planet but I’m not sure I’ll be able to get enough time off work to be able to make it happen. Seeing my first success on top 20 day and being in the top 10 last year has me hungry for more and wanting to reach the pinnacle in flying in the United States
Matt Colan

Offline john e. holliday

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22975
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2018, 09:51:10 AM »
NATS attendance for this old man was mainly in later years just to visit and meet the people that compete.  My main events were racing and carrier.  I volunteered to help run and also run some of the events.   When not competing I would visit the stunt circles.  Oh I entered Classic and Old Time some years just to be able to fly.  If not for Melvin and Brenda I would not have been at most of those NATS.   I had to tell Melvin to get some one else to run his MBS Model Supply at the NATS because of health issues.   Even now I would love to go to the NATS but I would have to have a room of my own so I wouldn't disturb somebody and I also would not enter any events.  Yes Muncie is only a 10 hour drive depending on traffic and number of stops.   When the NATS was moving around the country Dallas and Chicago were close.  Did make the East coast NATS when My son was competing.   Control line was almost always one week starting on Monday and ending on Saturday.  Forgot that we(Melvin, Brenda and I) did make the tri-cities NATS.   


Any way I see new blood coming up and wonder if I had spent more time at home flying instead of hitting the contest trail if I might have had more people flying control line in the KC area.   What rally made the NATS spread out over several months is RC and FF.   RC is the number of events that they now fly.   FF is having the available space for retrieval.   The same goes for the scale portion of competition.  Was surprised that scale was moved to start the control line portion of the NATS.   With the scheduling of only AMA official control line events it could be done on a Monday through Saturday Control line only NATS.   


As far as Brodaks I think John started it out as more of a fun get together for competition.  I can make Brodaks in 19 hours if I feel good.  The only not held there is the die hard speed events.  He also has many classes of stunt in which broken up into skill classes.   The year I was fortunate enough to attend I flew only carrier as it was a kind of vacation for the wife.  Did get her to Hershey's chocolate tourist attraction and site seeing.   We even got back into West Virginia looking for a craft shop she wanted to see.  Seeing the area museums at Carmichael's and the covered bridge.  By the way did I ever say I don't like tunnels.   Drove several of them going to Hersheys PA.   D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1446
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2018, 07:29:00 PM »
Doc I got back into flying C/L 3 seasons ago. The very first thing that was mentioned to me was ....Skip you gotta go to Brodaks. I've gone the last three years and had a week filled with fun and camaraderie every time. I'm not saying that the Nats are not fun,(I've been to the Nats for R/C stuff)but it's for the more serious competitor. Let's be honest,most of us are old farts and would prefer a more relaxed event, right?

Offline Steve Fitton

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2278
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2018, 07:46:35 AM »
Interesting viewpoint, especially since a few top level pilots have in the past complained about the numbers of duffers clogging up the Nats and how they felt that only the best 10 or 15 people in the country need show up.

Hopefully I can add to the numbers of duffers again next year, assuming my wife doesn't get broken in half again like this year.
Steve

Offline RandySmith

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 13756
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
    • Aero Products
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2018, 09:39:37 AM »
Interesting viewpoint, especially since a few top level pilots have in the past complained about the numbers of duffers clogging up the Nats and how they felt that only the best 10 or 15 people in the country need show up.

Hopefully I can add to the numbers of duffers again next year, assuming my wife doesn't get broken in half again like this year.

IF  that is  true, then it is  an asinine  veiwpoint ! ALL the pilots have just as much of a right to fly as  anyone in the top 10, I have been in the  top 5 multiple times, and  would  NEVER think of  saying that. Matter of fact  I think the more pilots we  have  only enhances, the NATs, and a  NATs with 10 to 15 people would be a sad sight indeed.   I do not think I have ever heard anyone say that, and If I did, I would certainly tell them my feelings on the matter.  I will also say that there are so many people that go to the NATs to make the top 20, the top 20 has been a  goal  for so many decades, I would hate to see  it cut down to the  Top 16 or  Top 12  or  Top 8

Regards
Randy

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14475
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2018, 10:30:58 AM »
Interesting viewpoint, especially since a few top level pilots have in the past complained about the numbers of duffers clogging up the Nats and how they felt that only the best 10 or 15 people in the country need show up.

Hopefully I can add to the numbers of duffers again next year, assuming my wife doesn't get broken in half again like this year.

     I haven't heard *anything* like that, aside from being falsely accused of it, along with many others, during the recent unpleasantness. Far from it, I know a lot/all of the "top level" pilots and I wouldn't be able to imagine any of them saying stuff like that, quite the opposite in fact. I am curious where you heard that, and who is claimed to have said it (offline and off the record if you wish), because I would be quite willing to try to provide them a little "perspective" in private. I know a few in the past who might have gone that far, but not in a very long time.

    Brett

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7966
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2018, 12:30:27 PM »
I started flying Open and Expert as an Intermediate-level duffer and never felt unwelcome.  If anything, I feel less welcome as I progress (and, presumably, annoy more people).

It was easier this year to get practice time on the L-pad, but I prefer the crowds.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7966
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2018, 01:40:46 PM »
I will also say that there are so many people that go to the NATs to make the top 20, the top 20 has been a  goal  for so many decades, I would hate to see  it cut down to the  Top 16 or  Top 12  or  Top 8

The problem is that "so many people" aren't many more than 20 now. We need to be prepared for any number of contestants: to know what to do with any number, to announce what we're going to do for any number, and to automate what we're going to do for any number so scoresheets get printed, flight orders get assigned, etc.   Yes, we could take the top 20 out of fewer entries than the program currently does.  This year, they took 5 out of 7 from each circle.  That's reasonable, I think, to preserve the traditional 20.  What would be the minimum number from which we'd want to take 20 to the semifinals?  For 25 to 27 entries, we'd be eliminating only 1 from some circles.  For 24 or fewer, it gets weird.   I think what we have in the program now--33 or more to have 20 in the semifinals-- is the best solution for having meaningful qualifying rounds and keeping the semifinals judging and weather consistent, but I could change the minimum to 28, say, if folks think that it's worth the compromises to preserve the top-20 tradition. 

I'll send you (and anybody else who's interested) the animated file to fiddle with.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline RandySmith

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 13756
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
    • Aero Products
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2018, 01:56:06 PM »
The problem is that "so many people" aren't many more than 20 now. We need to be prepared for any number of contestants: to know what to do with any number, to announce what we're going to do for any number, and to automate what we're going to do for any number so scoresheets get printed, flight orders get assigned, etc.   Yes, we could take the top 20 out of fewer entries than the program currently does.  This year, they took 5 out of 7 from each circle.  That's reasonable, I think, to preserve the traditional 20.  What would be the minimum number from which we'd want to take 20 to the semifinals?  For 25 to 27 entries, we'd be eliminating only 1 from some circles.  For 24 or fewer, it gets weird.   I think what we have in the program now--33 or more to have 20 in the semifinals-- is the best solution for having meaningful qualifying rounds and keeping the semifinals judging and weather consistent, but I could change the minimum to 28, say, if folks think that it's worth the compromises to preserve the top-20 tradition. 

I'll send you (and anybody else who's interested) the animated file to fiddle with.

Hi Howard
I  sorta  agree  with you, however  I just hate to see  the top 20 go away,
Another  thing is the  Rookie of the Year  is  picked out from the  top  20, It is  now , and  has been for decades a  Tradition,   and  a  big deal  to many competing  for it
 I hate to see  that picked out of the top  15 or  top  nine.  And   IF  we  are  to  cut down the  numbers of  semi finals, I see  the  TOP 5 being next, it could go to the   TOP 3   or  TOP 2  flyoff.  Sad state  if it gets  down to that,  I hope  we  can keep the  numbers  up

Regards
Randy

Offline Mike Ferguson

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 284
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2018, 02:01:53 PM »
The problem is that "so many people" aren't many more than 20 now. We need to be prepared for any number of contestants: to know what to do with any number, to announce what we're going to do for any number, and to automate what we're going to do for any number so scoresheets get printed, flight orders get assigned, etc.   Yes, we could take the top 20 out of fewer entries than the program currently does.  This year, they took 5 out of 7 from each circle.  That's reasonable, I think, to preserve the traditional 20.  What would be the minimum number from which we'd want to take 20 to the semifinals?  For 25 to 27 entries, we'd be eliminating only 1 from some circles.  For 24 or fewer, it gets weird.   I think what we have in the program now--33 or more to have 20 in the semifinals-- is the best solution for having meaningful qualifying rounds and keeping the semifinals judging and weather consistent, but I could change the minimum to 28, say, if folks think that it's worth the compromises to preserve the top-20 tradition. 

I'll send you (and anybody else who's interested) the animated file to fiddle with.

Has the file changed any in the past few years? If not, I’ll look again at what you previously sent me - if it did, please send me the latest file.

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7966
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2018, 02:06:06 PM »
Hi Howard
I  sorta  agree  with you, however  I just hate to see  the top 20 go away,
Another  thing is the  Rookie of the Year  is  picked out from the  top  20, It is  now , and  has been for decades a  Tradition,   and  a  big deal  to many competing  for it
 I hate to see  that picked out of the top  15 or  top  nine.  And   IF  we  are  to  cut down the  numbers of  semi finals, I see  the  TOP 5 being next, it could go to the   TOP 3   or  TOP 2  flyoff.  Sad state  if it gets  down to that,  I hope  we  can keep the  numbers  up

Regards
Randy

You're doing your part to keep the numbers up by providing equipment and training for competitors.

Technically, we could take the Rookie of the Year from the top 20, even if we only take 16 to the semifinals. 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7966
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2018, 02:12:49 PM »
Has the file changed any in the past few years? If not, I’ll look again at what you previously sent me - if it did, please send me the latest file.

Yes.  I'll send the whole mess.  The last email address I have for you is from 2010.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Mike Ferguson

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 284
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2018, 02:15:21 PM »
Yes.  I'll send the whole mess.  The last email address I have for you is from 2010.

If it’s a Gmail account, it hasn’t changed.

Offline Derek Barry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2835
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2018, 03:44:22 PM »
     I haven't heard *anything* like that, aside from being falsely accused of it, along with many others, during the recent unpleasantness. Far from it, I know a lot/all of the "top level" pilots and I wouldn't be able to imagine any of them saying stuff like that, quite the opposite in fact. I am curious where you heard that, and who is claimed to have said it (offline and off the record if you wish), because I would be quite willing to try to provide them a little "perspective" in private. I know a few in the past who might have gone that far, but not in a very long time.

    Brett

Come on Brett. A very prominent left coast flyer was famous for expressing that viewpoint. He thought advanced fliers shouldn't even be allowed on the L-pad. He drove a red 57' Chevy to the Nat's in 1990...

Derek

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14475
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2018, 03:46:36 PM »
Come on Brett. A very prominent left coast flyer was famous for expressing that viewpoint. He thought advanced fliers shouldn't even be allowed on the L-pad. He drove a red 57' Chevy to the Nat's in 1990...

Derek

   A misinterpretation, later turned into a misrepresentation for political purposes.

    Brett

Offline Derek Barry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2835
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2018, 04:00:06 PM »
   A misinterpretation, later turned into a misrepresentation for political purposes.

    Brett

Now that's funny, and you're not necessarily known for your humor.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, but I have personally heard him say things to that affect. He wasn't too fond of old time and classic being flown up there either... Until he entered classic.

I can go back and link less than flattering threads from another forum too, if you want to go that deep into it.

I don't think it's a problem at all today, but I do have a memory too...

Derek

Offline Doug Moon

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2310
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2018, 04:05:58 PM »
   A misinterpretation, later turned into a misrepresentation for political purposes.

    Brett

Nah not so much.

He wrote what he meant. He wrote some of directly to me. He stood by it every time no matter how wrong he was.

It was a long time ago. Like Derek said it not an issue now.
Doug Moon
AMA 496454
Dougmoon12@yahoo.com

Offline Steve Fitton

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2278
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2018, 04:08:12 PM »
     I haven't heard *anything* like that, aside from being falsely accused of it, along with many others, during the recent unpleasantness. Far from it, I know a lot/all of the "top level" pilots and I wouldn't be able to imagine any of them saying stuff like that, quite the opposite in fact. I am curious where you heard that, and who is claimed to have said it (offline and off the record if you wish), because I would be quite willing to try to provide them a little "perspective" in private. I know a few in the past who might have gone that far, but not in a very long time.

    Brett
I sent a PM, but I think its already obsolete.  Nobody is calling you, Ted, David, Paul, Howard et al out as somebody who thought that way.  Firsthand experience tells me that you guys are often the first to help out a duffer at the Nats vs telling them to go home.  But others had different thoughts, although I doubt it kept many away, certainly not myself.

My original comment was not an attempt to reconvene the Brodak Wars or some Windy conspiracy, just an aside that people who had wanted smaller numbers than those from 10+ years ago had their wish.
Steve

Offline Derek Barry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2835
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2018, 04:19:43 PM »
I sent a PM, but I think its already obsolete.  Nobody is calling you, Ted, David, Paul, Howard et al out as somebody who thought that way.  Firsthand experience tells me that you guys are often the first to help out a duffer at the Nats vs telling them to go home.  But others had different thoughts, although I doubt it kept many away, certainly not myself.

My original comment was not an attempt to reconvene the Brodak Wars or some Windy conspiracy, just an aside that people who had wanted smaller numbers than those from 10+ years ago had their wish.

Steve is correct!

Derek

Offline Trostle

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3389
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2018, 04:54:00 PM »
     I haven't heard *anything* like that, aside from being falsely accused of it, along with many others, during the recent unpleasantness. Far from it, I know a lot/all of the "top level" pilots and I wouldn't be able to imagine any of them saying stuff like that, quite the opposite in fact. I am curious where you heard that, and who is claimed to have said it (offline and off the record if you wish), because I would be quite willing to try to provide them a little "perspective" in private. I know a few in the past who might have gone that far, but not in a very long time.

    Brett

Not that it makes any difference now, but:

Some time ago, shortly after the transition started from the single day of qualifications plus the single day of finals which eventually led to the multi-round format we now use, a very prominent flier of the time, not from one of the Coasts, told me that the multi-round format took too much time and required too much energy.  I think he was a minority of one though I think many will agree that much more energy is required to go through the regimen that we now call our CLPA Nationals.

I think our current format accomplishes many things at many levels.  Before, at the Nats, there was one day of qualifications, even after Bill Netzeband initiated the multi-circle format for the qualification day.  For many, this often translated to one flight because the second flight could be negated for equipment problems, bad weather or just a poor circle assignment.  Now, no matter how good the pilot, there are several days and multiple rounds to give an objective/reasonable chance to qualify and to minimize the impact of the variables beyond the pilot's control.  The daily work load on the judges has been reduced to a "reasonable" level.  The fliers who qualify for the top 20 (or what it might morph to be) really earn their right to be there.  Then the final 5 is about as good as it gets for being involved with this event, whether as a spectator, or a judge, or to be in that top five.

Keith

Offline Jason Greer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 487
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2018, 05:28:39 PM »
Well, first of all, you would never be in the way of anyone. Even if you leave home not feeling like you are competing at your highest level, there is something about the Muncie air that adds a little magic to your pattern. You also know that you would have at least 3 days of practice before you ever fly your first official. I am certain that you could find some top level pilots to help you get your pattern tuned up. I would be more than happy to watch a few patterns and give you my advice.

I really hope to see you next year!

Derek

Thank you, Derek! I will take you up on that next year!

I hope my comment about my internal feeling of “being in the way” didn’t take this thread in its current direction. That feeling is not something that was caused by any experience I’ve had at the Nats.

I didn’t know anyone in 2009 when I first flew advanced at the Nats, but I was made to feel very welcome by everyone that I met. I’ve been several times since and it just gets better every time. I would encourage anyone that hasn’t attended to go at least once. I bet you’ll be hooked just like I was.

Jason
El Dorado, AR
AMA 518858

Offline john e. holliday

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22975
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2018, 06:17:05 PM »
I have been helped by a lot of the so called big name flyers.  Even the son of one launched me in classic one year.  Remember they are people just like you and me as we all had to start some where at one time.   My first plane was an ARF called Fire Baby.   what was yours guys? ???
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14475
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2018, 08:09:53 PM »
just an aside that people who had wanted smaller numbers than those from 10+ years ago had their wish.

  I absolutely, positively, guarantee you that he would not agree with the way you stated it, if you put it to him that way. Bob has some flaws, but this is not one of them. I think I recall all the posts or other comments you refer to, I think you are reading far more into them than was intended. If I thought he actually meant it in the way you said it, I would have confronted him at the time, in person, I assure you of that.

    Brett

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14475
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2018, 10:24:49 PM »
Ted noticed this in the other thread, and its something I noticed, too, in 14-15-16. The "energy", for lack of a better description does seem to be going out of it, and it looks more and more like a medium-sized local contest than the unique event it used to be. This is long, even for me, but I have been trying to put my finger on it myself for a few years now.

  I don’t think lack of local promotion has much to do with it. There are a number of element that I think go into it:

•   Permanently located in Muncie. The AMA site is about as good as I ever saw at a NATs, so it’s not the facilities. But it is still 2400 miles away from home for a big contingent of fliers. I counted the entries from the 2012 Golden State meet, and I got 76 entries (not distinct individuals, that included people who entered OTS and Classic in addition to PAMPA classes). And that it pretty typical. We have had more Expert entries than there were Open entries at the NATs this year (and Lubbock in 94, as Paul pointed out). That’s not intended to brag, but it shows that there are an awful lot of people who would probably love to go to a NATs. Three of those people showed up at this year’s NATs.

    That has dropped off drastically from the travelling NATs and the first 10-ish years in Muncie. People just got burned out on the travel. You drive for 3 fairly hard days at 80 mph – and your reward is a week in Muncie, Indiana AGAIN. How many times can you eat at Fazoli’s and Texas Roadhouse? Aside from the airplane contest part, there is (and no offense is intended) not a lot else to recommend it. I can drive 4 hours and go to Yosemite (when it is not on fire), I can drive 4 hours and go poke around Mt. Lassen and Mt. Shasta (when that is not on fire), I can drive an hour and hang around Big Basin Redwoods state park, places that people come from all around the world to visit. Or I can spend 3 days hot-footing it across the country, not stopping because I have to go at least 800 miles a day, and hope I don’t run out of gas before I get to Buford, Wyoming (population: 3). And with all that, I found that I liked the travel part of it, and the driving, more than when I got to the destination.

    People used to show up with their families in tow, and it was the family vacation for the year. That has dropped off drastically, because trying to do the same old thing, year after year, no new sites, always the same trip along essentially the same route, has to have lost its appeal. That's why it looks like a local contest, and the banquet, for example, has fallen off to nothing or is cancelled - only people directly involved, i.e. the competitors, judges, and administrators, go, the family in most cases stays home.

•   It has gotten very predictable – As much as I hate to even superficially argue like the gadflies, the contest has become pretty predictable and the same people tend to be competitive year after year – the corollary to that being that the same people are NOT competitive year after year.  I think there are a lot of reasons for it, mostly things you think would be and objectively are good things. The judging is very consistent, doesn’t really “bracket” scores and has a reasonable scoring range, which is particularly noticeable in the Top 20 and Top 5 and wildly different from top 5s in the early-mid-2000s. My first two rounds in 2008 would have given a nearly insurmountable lead in earlier years, but that was the first year that we weren’t trying to restrict the scoring range, and Orestes (with a better flight) was able to catch me right at the end.

But it’s not just the judging that has gotten better. Everybody’s engine/motor runs well, and gives plenty of power to get through any reasonable conditions. You never win a contest due to a flameout or undiagnosed engine issue where it just, one day, decided to crap out on you. In past decades, this was sometimes the decisive factor. If someone good happened to get a couple of perfect runs at the right time, it gave them a huge advantage. The airplanes almost always fly well, and the trim is usually decent if not ideal, certainly good enough to get through flights in any reasonable air. Taking the equipment out of the equation also make things very predictable – the best pilots generally win and there aren’t too many anomalies that you can take advantage of. Again the corollary is that if you aren’t necessarily the best pilot, the chances of a surprise qualification or Top 5 appearance seems pretty remote, you aren’t going to luck into it.

•   Related to everybody having access to competitive equipment, the standards for every aspect of the event have gotten ridiculously high. In past years, it was possible, for example, to distinguish yourself at appearance judging or with extraordinary workmanship. Great plan – take a look at the Hellcat construction article by Chris Cox in Stunt News, does anyone here think they can do better? The engineering and workmanship is as high as it has ever been, And he also made the fly-off . There aren’t many/any better airplanes, but there sure are a lot of really good ones. Combine the exceptionally high quality flying, powerful and effective engines that are dead-nuts reliable, incredible workmanship through the field, and unerring judging, and that is a standard of overall quality that would have been inconceivable even 15 years go. So, practice more? What kind of practice are you going to do that will put you ahead of a 12-time NATs and World Champion, and also a 17-time NATS and world Champion who has won in all three age ranges over a period of 40+years. The (for my money, and on the objective record) two most successful competitors in the history of the event? It’s possible (I have done it on occasion) but as I told Derek about 15 years ago, you might beat one or the other, but both – that’s pretty hard. I managed it a few times in some special circumstances, and David isn’t even my #1 nemesis, historically  – that would be Mr. Terry G. “Ted” Fancher.

You have to look at this from the outside and find it almost inconceivable to ever meet any of these levels of accomplishment, much less all of them at once (which is necessary to win). If all you see is a trophy, you are going to have a tough time of it, and you either go and are resigned to getting your 4 flights and heading home, or figure there’s gotta be some better way to spend your week of vacation.

This is missing the point, of course. The point is to challenge yourself, far more than it is to win. Winning is a lot better, but it’s the logical result of overcoming your own limitations and preconceptions, and maintain physical and psychological control over yourself for long periods under stress. The trophy is nice, it’s pretty cool to have your name on the same Trophy as George Aldrich, but the accomplishment is overcoming and mastering your own actions and thoughts, and being recognized as champion by others doing the same. But only the real die-hards ever even get to looking at it like that, for others, it's a long ordeal with little chance of a payoff.

     Brett

 

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7966
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2018, 12:11:23 AM »
I can see how you might get discouraged, given all the mean things we do to keep you from winning. 

I enjoy the Nats.  I like seeing everybody.  It's challenging to see how well I can do, and I'm slowly getting better. 

Fazoli's and the Roadhouse may not be your best dining options.  The Sunshine mush has gotten better, and if you miss the West Coast, there's an all-you-can-eat Indian lunch buffet . 

We are fortunate to have several alternate routes to Muncie with different and swell scenery, whereas you are pretty much stuck on I-80.  You might divert to I-680 in Iowa and take in that scenic tower.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14475
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2018, 12:40:11 AM »
I can see how you might get discouraged, given all the mean things we do to keep you from winning. 

Yes, that and and me being just plain old intimated by the competition. And no VGs, and a "tripper strip" that is really just an unsanded paint ridge, and only on one side!  It's a miracle I get through a weekend, when you get right down to it.

Quote
Fazoli's and the Roadhouse may not be your best dining options.  The Sunshine mush has gotten better, and if you miss the West Coast, there's an all-you-can-eat Indian lunch buffet . 

   I live in the "Little India" section of Sunnyvale, one of my ex-girlfriends was East Indian but a very poor cook (although she made great pizza from scratch).  I have never been quite *that* homesick, and I still get a twitch in my digestive tract when I smell curry.

    Brett

Offline Derek Barry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2835
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2018, 04:46:33 AM »
" It’s possible (I have done it on occasion) but as I told Derek about 15 years ago, you might beat one or the other, but both – that’s pretty hard."

This statement still holds true today. It's even more difficult when you handicap yourself with questionable construction methods.

Derek

Offline jose modesto

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 843
Re: Nat's participation, then and now.
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2018, 05:21:17 AM »
2018 was the worlds that reduced attendance 7 contestants  the team 3 Orestes, Kaz, hicki,
Jose,mat. Hope for Erik V and Steve f.  If this group returns it will be a normal Nat’.
Outside chance of Randy and Bill rich
Hoping for the best.
Jose modesto

Tags: