stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Robert Whitley on March 04, 2018, 10:36:20 PM
-
Hi Rusty and gang.
I think this photo is the airplane that all of you were trying to find the name of on Friday’s hangout.
Cheers
Robert
-
American Modeler ran the construction article on the Carousel in their 3/61 issue, but I can't find my original now. The scan below is all that I could find immediately. Charles Mackey for Jim Vornholt.
SK.
-
As of a couple years ago Jim still had the airplane and had planned to refinish it and donate it to the museum. Haven’t heard anymore about it since we talked then.
Dave
-
Hi Robert,
I'm not sure I ever figured out what the name was, something like "Gobbleswance" or something like that. Earlier in the show we spent a lot of time looking it over, quite an impressive machine. Here's the clip of the video when Sparky decided he remembered the name. It's at 1:24:20.
https://youtu.be/NpW-gCQ9caI?t=1h24m20s
-
There's another good look at the plane starting at 1:34:00 when Steve Hines asks to see it.
-
Hi Rusty,
I was watching the re-run on you tube last night and saw the scenes you are referring to.
I did a search then for 1960 control line nats and this photo immediately popped up.
Thanks for all your work entertaining and informing all of us.
The discussion on aging parents really hit home as we are now dealing with it in our family.
Cheers
-
Didn’t have time to see much of the airplane on the video but I’d think it’s a Gobbleswanz. NOT the same airplane as Jim’s Carousel. I don’t know that any besides the original were ever built (except the one I’d like to build someday)
-
I like knowing who some of our audience is. Thanks for the comments. We do hit on many topics and that's good, but I also try to steer things like "The Geezer Gripe Segment" back to workshop stuff if we get off topic for too long. Workshopping, racing, hunting & fishing, mechaniching, sailing, etc. is all unlimited. No lengthy attention to politics, just fun stuff, mostly aeromodeling. It usually takes us a half hour or so to debug mics and cams, loosen up, and find our groove each night.
Rusty
-
Didn’t have time to see much of the airplane on the video but I’d think it’s a Gobbleswanz. NOT the same airplane as Jim’s Carousel. I don’t know that any besides the original were ever built (except the one I’d like to build someday)
One big difference I see on the Gobbleswanz is the flap between the booms. Dave, I bet that is the proper spelling, with a "z."
-
Jom Vornholt's Carousel and the Gobbleswantz were both designed my Charles Mackey. The Carousel has the bellcrank at the inboard boom and the Gobbleswantz had the bellcrank at the outboard boom. I had a Carousel and Lou Wolgast had a Gobbleswantz with a ST .60 for power. The Gobbleswantz also has less leading edge sweep. Bob Randell won the Nats with the Gobbleswantz There is a picture somewhere on the forum of both of us with those airplanes
-
What a terrific education in history and design these forums can be.
Thanks guys.
-
What a terrific education in history and design these forums can be.
Thanks guys.
Sure is, in fact we talked about that in this episode. Thanks to y'all, on tonight's show, I can expand on this plane even more. So, what is the spelling, "...swanz" or "...swantz?"
Rusty
-
"Gabelschwanz" i.e. "fork tail" auf Deutsch. The Luftwaffe referred to the P-38 as "Gabelschwanz Teufel," fork-tailed devil.
-
Crusader by Charles A. Mackey. I built 7 of them. It was the final one of the series which included the Carousel and Gobbleschwantz.
-
Agreed, it's not the Carousel, but still a Mackey design. I don't know the spelling Mr. Mackey used, but it was probably the correct German, pretty close to, if not exactly "Gobbelschwanz" "Gabelschwanz." There was at least one built after the original, because I saw it at Brodak's some time between 2004 and 2010. There may have been one at VSC. The one at Brodak's was white with black Luftwaffe markings. I'm going up to look for the magazine article, but do not know where my color prints from the Brodak fly-in are.
-
Maybe it was in Stunt News, not sure, but I could swear I recall an article a while back that was about restoring someones original(?) version of this design. All white with British markings comes to mind...
-
I have a file on twin booms.
-
The picture at the top of this thread is definitely the Carousel. Can't seem to find the 'swanz plans at the moment. Looking at the Carousel plans in the 3/61 American Modeler:
1. It has a movable flap between the booms and most interestingly, a counter-weighted dynamic trim tab (small flap) on the outboard wing. The inboard TE "flap" is fixed. Mackey said that the inspiration for this came from British free flight pendulum control.
2. The bellcrank is shown on the outboard boom. I suppose this is done to take some advantage of it as tip weight.
3. Since the HS is raised up to "...move them out of the slipstream." This required a bit of chicanery to attempt to stiffen the 3/32" pushrod, since it was buried in the outboard boom. He lists his regrets about the consequences and offers the alternative of just putting it on the centerline.
4. Style-wise, I'll take a Sheeks LaDonna II instead...from Flying Models Feb-Mar '64. Same center flap, elevator near the boom centerline. No pendulum gizmo, much less LE sweep...and I-Beam construction! The overall similarities are pretty strong, but I don't know how much crossbreeding was going on.
-
I think the Gobbleschwanz with the German markings is owned by Don Ogren.
Dave
-
Another great looking model. One of my favorites.
Maybe "Good" Will Hinton's design? Not sure?
-
Ref Reply #16. That is my two tone blue Carousel.
-
I think the Gobbleschwanz with the German markings is owned by Don Ogren.
Dave
Good chance I'll see him first of May. I'll try to remember to tell him we were looking at it and see what he has to say about it.
Rusty
-
Ref Reply #16. That is my two tone blue Carousel.
Tom,
Nice. Do I see a thin white pinstripe between colors?
Still have the model?
Charles
-
Charles,
Yes there is a white pinstripe
-
Charles,
Yes there is a white pinstripe
Tom,
You are a man who likes detail. I remember that biplane. I have photos of it someplace. Really really nice.
Your Carousel, is the model still well?
Charles
-
Tom:
That is one good looking airplane! Can you tell us about it? How did it fly? How did you address the control rod to the elevator? It looks like the outboard flap is adjustable?
Scott
-
As I have Lou Wolgast's "Gobbleswantz" hanging on the shop wall downstairs, I ran down and looked at the spelling...tho it is upside down...it has the "t". I believe I have plans for the design, but maybe not full size.
I bought the airplane from Burt Brokow at a NWCLR swap meet, in Albany, OR. Lou had carved down the mounting lugs of a ST .60 to make the nose as narrow as possible. At 620 sq.inches, I'd say a ST .60 was a little overkill. My intention was/is to put in either a ST G.51 or ASP/Magnum .53. I have studied it enough to locate at least some of the tail weight Lou added to make it rotate and come off the ground. The other problem with the design is that the main LG is way farther aft than it should be. But at least, it doesn't have the high tail of the Carousel...
The original won the '58 NATS with a Fox .35 Stunt, probably on 25% nitro or more. I well remember reading the article in the library in Pullman Jr.High/HS when the magazine was close to fresh off the presses. Always liked the design, but would suggest some more modern construction techniques. While Burt owned it, Pete Peterson flew it in SLC, and said it was a bit strange to fly, with the odd profile view. Probably Gordan flew it, too. D>K Steve
-
Charles,
My Carousel is no more.. I got too fancy with the controls and a piece rubbed internally around neutral. It made it impossible to land. I found the problem when I tore the airplane apart. If I didn't have too many projects I would build another. I think the airplane is potentially a very good flyer.
-
Charles,
My Carousel is no more.. I got too fancy with the controls and a piece rubbed internally around neutral. It made it impossible to land. I found the problem when I tore the airplane apart. If I didn't have too many projects I would build another. I think the airplane is potentially a very good flyer.
Tom,
My condolences.
I would really be interested in seeing a Build Thread on a twin boom.
Be nice to see you do one.
You know I've built a few so I might just have to do a twin boom Build Thread with the junk I have hanging around if no one steps forward. LL~
Gotta get Pushy Galore done first.
-
When I first seen the plane .....I told myself I gotta build one of those......thanks for starting the thread on this plane. It is great to read about the history of the plane.
Thank you to the ones who watch our show. If ya'll have any question feel free to chime in.
I will be doing a radical paint job. Getting close to paint. Installed all the fillets last night on the show.
Ya'll have any more pictures ....please.....post
Thank you for everyone's support
-
On reply #19, yes Charles, that is my third Ephesian twin boomer. I had a chance to send it south with a gentleman in exchange for a ton of cash and an engine I needed, so have no idea what ever became of it. He promised to keep me informed, but failed to do so and I later learned that he was quite undependable according to several other fliers. The design was/is a very good performer, the original had a piped 46VF for power and I simply wore the faithful old beast out.
The second was too porky to be consistent, but now you have me in the mood to build a fourth one. Maybe next winter?
-
on reply from #30.....Will Horton glad it inspired ya.....My weight so far with everything but wheels and tip weight......it is 35.8 oz's.....what did your good flyer weigh?
Also no paint yet.....the finish will weigh no more than 8 oz's
-
The original Ephesian was 730 squares and weighed in the high 60's. The airfoil was designed for our gusty northwestern Ohio winds so the VF had no trouble towing it around and it penetrated very well. Number two was in the mid 70's and simply was a bust.
-
When I first seen the plane .....I told myself I gotta build one of those......thanks for starting the thread on this plane. It is great to read about the history of the plane.
Thank you to the ones who watch our show. If ya'll have any question feel free to chime in.
I will be doing a radical paint job. Getting close to paint. Installed all the fillets last night on the show.
Ya'll have any more pictures ....please.....post
Thank you for everyone's support
Show?
-
Ref #29
Tom,
I think that is Mackey's Crusader
Tom N
-
Show?
Yes .....We do google hangouts every monday and friday night at 9pm. Go to the bench and click on our link. Stunthangar hangout.
Will I be seeing you at Polk City this year Willy ?
-
Ref #29
Tom,
I think that is Mackey's Crusader
Tom N
I think so too......The kit is laser cut from Eric Rule RSM
-
I googled Gabelschwanz images and found out there where stabilzer/elevator tips.....so I installed
Had someone tell me that is will make the plane NOT legal for Classic event.....Will that be true ?
I think the tips is what the plane needed to look right......What's your opinion ?
-
Tom, the Gobbleswantz has swept fins (no rudders and no stabilizer or elevator tips outboard of the fins) and is quite a bit larger than your Crusader. If the tips you added to the horizontal stabilizer are not on the plans, they are definitely not "correct". But unless it's been changed recently, there is also nothing in the Official Classic Rules that allows anybody to disqualify any model for modifications.
For the Gobbleswantz (possibly other Mackey designs with trike gear also?), I would certainly move the main gear forward so that it'd be much closer to the CG (see Pathfinder plans). Nothing against it. Some Classics, I'd reduce the wing offset, and again, there's nothing against it. Most Classic models had bigger inboard flaps...so change it...no problem. Any changes would cost points for appearance, and that's it, a point or two, and that is IF the judges spot your modification. You don't have to tell them, so unless they ask, don't. H^^ Steve
-
That why Fidelity points were added. Most CD's ignore them because they are not familiar with the airplanes.
In some cases they are ignored because they want better attendance. But that doesn't exclude the airplane from competing.
All that is required is to ask if any changes were made to the design. If the answer is yes, you give up the fidelity points.
If I am CD or judging I require the fidelity points
-
I just scanned the picture of Lou Wolgast with his Gobbelswantz and me with my Carousel. Picture was taken at VSC IX
-
I just scanned the picture of Lou Wolgast with his Gobbelswantz and me with my Carousel. Picture was taken at VSC IX
SWEET PLANES !!!! I notice......does the middle flap operational on the white plane and the main flaps are on the outboard of booms?
My tail is different.....rudder,elevator tips.....I guess it is builders choice.....LOL. Thanks for sharing Tom
-
I must need glasses as I don't see any thing out side of the booms on the stab/elevator. Also in the picture two completely different planes. HB~>
-
I must confess that I am absolutely “GOBBLESMACKED” at the interest this thread has generated.
Objects of unusual interest such as this should be persued and encouraged as there is obviously an intrigued audience to lap it up.
Guys and gals let’s keep building the enthusiasm for things past, present and future in this great educational pursuit that we call model aviation.
Cheers
-
By the way the title of stunner rather than stunter was just the idiotic auto-correct but I thought it was ironically appropriate.
-
(http://www.modelbouwforum.nl/media/72382/full)
seeing someone said ' twin boom ' , might be relephant . Fox 35 , 1965 .
previos plane was Grondal Nobler/ A M A Special ,
so airfoil at least might match . Wing is similar . Said to Fly well . in English .
Willum do it one day .
-
Oh Dear. ;)
(https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/plano-netherlands-model-with-wim-cator-and-paul-tupker/?action=dlattach;attach=74900)
Think this is a modified Gieske Nobler kit .
-
If I order one, does the plane-holder come with it? ;D
-
Tom,
The white Gobbleswantz has operational flaps full span, including the section between the booms.
The Carousel has an operational flap only between the booms. The Carousel originally has a small outboard flap at the tip that had a counterweight inside the wing that was an experimental method to compensate for asymmetrical wings. It didn't work too well so that tip flap can be used fixed or as an adjustable trim device.
Bill Suarez's P-38 that was in Model Airplane News is also a great Classic boomer.
-
SWEET PLANES !!!! I notice......does the middle flap operational on the white plane and the main flaps are on the outboard of booms?
My tail is different.....rudder,elevator tips.....I guess it is builders choice.....LOL. Thanks for sharing Tom
Tom, your model is very clearly the Crusader...and it's the only Mackey 'boomer' that RSM kits. The bigger swept fin 'boomer' I have is the Gobbleswantz, and the high tail model is the Carousel. Charles Mackey designed them all. I don't know of any other Mackey 'boomers', but it wouldn't surprise me a lot if there were a few more that weren't published. H^^ Steve
-
Me and Lou Wolgast with Carousel and Gobbelswantz.
Picture taken at VSC IX
-
Both terrific builders and gentlemen. Have always thought of building the Gobbelswantz. H^^
-
Talked to Jim Vornholt last night. He has just joined our club of bionic people with a shoulder replacement. He is starting rehab.
He rebuilt his Carousel twice, but doesn't remember details of the controls and contradictions on the drawing.
I have found discrepancies that were not uncommon on published plans of the era.
The top view of the wing shows 1/4" main spars at the aft end of the L.E. sheeting, but the ribs show 1/8" spars. The flap to elevator pushrod is drawn as 1/6" dia. but the plan callout says 3/32" pushrod. ????
I think the pushrods were 1/16 since the small booms would be hard to fit 3/32" in. I would prefer the larger dia.. I'm going to have to do some test bends.
In either case I will avoid the problems that I had in the past. The Carousel has a lot of potential for Classic.
Jim also said that he watched Bob Randall build his new version of the Gobbleswantz. I believed was the Liberator or Devastator. Bob had a lot of trouble getting everything aligned. This is a problem with most boomers.
A modern competitive boomer would be very difficult since it would be difficult to include some of our trimming devices, but this could be a challenge for someone to take on.
-
Made some laser cut ribs today for the Carousel. I have been making some parts for it over the last few weeks. I will start the wing in the next few days
-
Does anyone know how well the McFarland P-38 performed in comparison with the rest of these twin boomers? Did anyone ever build one with only two lines?
Dave
-
More pictures of my Carousel.
As I said before, I started a wing with laser cut ribs as shown on the drawing. The drawing shows 1/8" main spars on the rib patterns. .
They are entirely too fragile so I stopped the build. Since the top view of the wing shows conflicting 1/4" spars, I have redrawn the ribs and will laser cut a new set with 1/4" spars this week end. I feel that I owe it to Charles Mackey, and to Jim Vornholt to build a new Carousel. Power will be either a RoJett .40, or a LA .46
-
Show?
click on "at the bench" and click on link for google hangout......read how to get on and then join us
coming to Polk City ? I will see ya there
-
One more view. It is a great looking airplane, but a difficult build. I will write about it for a future Stunt News.
-
That looks like an awesome project. H^^
-
No one has mentioned Jack Sheeks La Donna. So here are a few of Walt Umlands prototype model. 14 kits were made if my memory serves me. I'm only 7 years behind on finishing it but who keeps track of time anymore
-
Dennis.
Hope you can finish the LaDonna soon. I talked to Jack a few days ago and is very tired. He needs our prayers.
-
From Tom Morris' Book...
-
Here's the twin boom I designed in the 60's, held by the late Don Hartman.
Built two actually from the Ares kit.
I still have wing and booms.
Tempting.
-
Charles,
You have to build another one! Back in the day many of us started designing while still in grade school.
In my case, my grand father gave me a his old drafting board an drafting set. My first airplane was a Ringmaster while I was in the 4th grade. That is the last kit that I built. From then on everything was my own design with the exception of OTS and Classic airplanes.
This led to my engineering and flying and instructing in full size aircraft.
Today, the ARFS and cell phones are leading to lost skills in every walk of life. I was at a hobby shop a few days ago and in a few minutes watched parents and adults spending hundreds of $ for RC planes and cars and drones that will be crashed almost right away. These people have no skills to repair them... Oh well, just spend more $100 bills to get another one. Or just go back to texting!
-
Tom,
You've put some really nice models together, I wish you'd put up a photo or two.
I have a photo of your extraordinary biplane someplace. I haven't looked at it in a while, I think I can find it.
Put up some photos of your models!!
Charles
-
Charles,
Thanks for the compliment. Although I wrote the FM BiSlob article, it was designed by Ron Pavloer.
The only Bipe that I designed is the "Vagabond". Doc Holliday has one flying and Gordon Van Tighem from Canada has one under construction. I showed the initial Vagabond plan on this forum in PDF form.
I started flying when I was in the 4th grade. I built my one and only Ringmaster and with the exception of OTS and Classic airplanes I have flown my own designs since the 4th grade!
I have pictures of most of my airplanes since the late 50's and early 60's and I could probably put them on a disc for you, but I think putting them on the forum would be too self serving.
I am still learning a lot from these forums. I am also continually surprised at how many common building methods have been created by people at the same time.
I just hope that I can contribute at times.
I have been asked to write something about the Carousel build for Pampa. I am starting by saying that If you say that you have never made a mistake, you are a liar. After all these years I still botch things up, and I will tell all during the Carousel build. I hope that it is entertaining.
-
Here's the twin boom I designed in the 60's, held by the late Don Hartman.
Built two actually from the Ares kit.
I still have wing and booms.
Tempting.
Charles you are the master! kudos!