Author Topic: Name of twin boom stunner on Friday Hangout (Read 7269 times)

Robert Whitley · « **on:** March 04, 2018, 10:36:20 PM »

Hi Rusty and gang.
I think this photo is the airplane that all of you were trying to find the name of on Friday’s hangout.

Cheers

Robert

Serge_Krauss · « **Reply #1 on:** March 05, 2018, 11:36:21 AM »

American Modeler ran the construction article on the Carousel in their 3/61 issue, but I can't find my original now. The scan below is all that I could find immediately. Charles Mackey for Jim Vornholt.

SK.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2018, 11:55:47 AM »

As of a couple years ago Jim still had the airplane and had planned to refinish it and donate it to the museum. Haven’t heard anymore about it since we talked then.

Dave

RknRusty · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2018, 12:15:23 PM »

Hi Robert,
I'm not sure I ever figured out what the name was, something like "Gobbleswance" or something like that. Earlier in the show we spent a lot of time looking it over, quite an impressive machine. Here's the clip of the video when Sparky decided he remembered the name. It's at 1:24:20.
https://youtu.be/NpW-gCQ9caI?t=1h24m20s

RknRusty · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2018, 12:29:21 PM »

There's another good look at the plane starting at 1:34:00 when Steve Hines asks to see it.

Robert Whitley · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2018, 12:43:02 PM »

Hi Rusty,
I was watching the re-run on you tube last night and saw the scenes you are referring to.
I did a search then for 1960 control line nats and this photo immediately popped up.

Thanks for all your work entertaining and informing all of us.

The discussion on aging parents really hit home as we are now dealing with it in our family.

Cheers

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #6 on:** March 05, 2018, 01:00:48 PM »

Didn’t have time to see much of the airplane on the video but I’d think it’s a Gobbleswanz. NOT the same airplane as Jim’s Carousel. I don’t know that any besides the original were ever built (except the one I’d like to build someday)

RknRusty · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2018, 01:03:59 PM »

I like knowing who some of our audience is. Thanks for the comments. We do hit on many topics and that's good, but I also try to steer things like "The Geezer Gripe Segment" back to workshop stuff if we get off topic for too long. Workshopping, racing, hunting & fishing, mechaniching, sailing, etc. is all unlimited. No lengthy attention to politics, just fun stuff, mostly aeromodeling. It usually takes us a half hour or so to debug mics and cams, loosen up, and find our groove each night.
Rusty

RknRusty · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2018, 01:08:52 PM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on March 05, 2018, 01:00:48 PM

Didn’t have time to see much of the airplane on the video but I’d think it’s a Gobbleswanz. NOT the same airplane as Jim’s Carousel. I don’t know that any besides the original were ever built (except the one I’d like to build someday)

One big difference I see on the Gobbleswanz is the flap between the booms. Dave, I bet that is the proper spelling, with a "z."

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2018, 01:42:13 PM »

Jom Vornholt's Carousel and the Gobbleswantz were both designed my Charles Mackey. The Carousel has the bellcrank at the inboard boom and the Gobbleswantz had the bellcrank at the outboard boom. I had a Carousel and Lou Wolgast had a Gobbleswantz with a ST .60 for power. The Gobbleswantz also has less leading edge sweep. Bob Randell won the Nats with the Gobbleswantz There is a picture somewhere on the forum of both of us with those airplanes

Robert Whitley · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2018, 01:47:01 PM »

What a terrific education in history and design these forums can be.
Thanks guys.

RknRusty · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2018, 02:31:57 PM »

Quote from: Robert Whitley on March 05, 2018, 01:47:01 PM

What a terrific education in history and design these forums can be.
Thanks guys.

Sure is, in fact we talked about that in this episode. Thanks to y'all, on tonight's show, I can expand on this plane even more. So, what is the spelling, "...swanz" or "...swantz?"
Rusty

Mike Scholtes · « **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2018, 04:21:13 PM »

"Gabelschwanz" i.e. "fork tail" auf Deutsch. The Luftwaffe referred to the P-38 as "Gabelschwanz Teufel," fork-tailed devil.

eric rule · « **Reply #13 on:** March 05, 2018, 06:44:24 PM »

Crusader by Charles A. Mackey. I built 7 of them. It was the final one of the series which included the Carousel and Gobbleschwantz.

Serge_Krauss · « **Reply #14 on:** March 06, 2018, 02:40:23 PM »

Agreed, it's not the Carousel, but still a Mackey design. I don't know the spelling Mr. Mackey used, but it was probably the correct German, pretty close to, if not exactly "Gobbelschwanz" "Gabelschwanz." There was at least one built after the original, because I saw it at Brodak's some time between 2004 and 2010. There may have been one at VSC. The one at Brodak's was white with black Luftwaffe markings. I'm going up to look for the magazine article, but do not know where my color prints from the Brodak fly-in are.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #15 on:** March 06, 2018, 07:05:16 PM »

Maybe it was in Stunt News, not sure, but I could swear I recall an article a while back that was about restoring someones original(?) version of this design. All white with British markings comes to mind...

Avaiojet · « **Reply #16 on:** March 06, 2018, 07:29:59 PM »

I have a file on twin booms.

Dave Hull · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2018, 01:49:24 AM »

The picture at the top of this thread is definitely the Carousel. Can't seem to find the 'swanz plans at the moment. Looking at the Carousel plans in the 3/61 American Modeler:

1. It has a movable flap between the booms and most interestingly, a counter-weighted dynamic trim tab (small flap) on the outboard wing. The inboard TE "flap" is fixed. Mackey said that the inspiration for this came from British free flight pendulum control.

2. The bellcrank is shown on the outboard boom. I suppose this is done to take some advantage of it as tip weight.

3. Since the HS is raised up to "...move them out of the slipstream." This required a bit of chicanery to attempt to stiffen the 3/32" pushrod, since it was buried in the outboard boom. He lists his regrets about the consequences and offers the alternative of just putting it on the centerline.

4. Style-wise, I'll take a Sheeks LaDonna II instead...from Flying Models Feb-Mar '64. Same center flap, elevator near the boom centerline. No pendulum gizmo, much less LE sweep...and I-Beam construction! The overall similarities are pretty strong, but I don't know how much crossbreeding was going on.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2018, 07:28:14 AM »

I think the Gobbleschwanz with the German markings is owned by Don Ogren.

Dave

Avaiojet · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2018, 08:33:24 AM »

Another great looking model. One of my favorites.

Maybe "Good" Will Hinton's design? Not sure?

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2018, 03:04:09 PM »

Ref Reply #16. That is my two tone blue Carousel.

RknRusty · « **Reply #21 on:** March 07, 2018, 08:56:45 PM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on March 07, 2018, 07:28:14 AM

I think the Gobbleschwanz with the German markings is owned by Don Ogren.

Dave

Good chance I'll see him first of May. I'll try to remember to tell him we were looking at it and see what he has to say about it.
Rusty

Avaiojet · « **Reply #22 on:** March 08, 2018, 04:47:48 AM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on March 07, 2018, 03:04:09 PM

Ref Reply #16. That is my two tone blue Carousel.

Tom,

Nice. Do I see a thin white pinstripe between colors?

Still have the model?

Charles

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #23 on:** March 08, 2018, 02:01:27 PM »

Charles,

Yes there is a white pinstripe

Avaiojet · « **Reply #24 on:** March 08, 2018, 02:21:29 PM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on March 08, 2018, 02:01:27 PM

Charles,

Yes there is a white pinstripe

Tom,

You are a man who likes detail. I remember that biplane. I have photos of it someplace. Really really nice.

Your Carousel, is the model still well?

Charles

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #25 on:** March 08, 2018, 04:04:54 PM »

Tom:

That is one good looking airplane! Can you tell us about it? How did it fly? How did you address the control rod to the elevator? It looks like the outboard flap is adjustable?

Scott

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #26 on:** March 08, 2018, 07:57:33 PM »

As I have Lou Wolgast's "Gobbleswantz" hanging on the shop wall downstairs, I ran down and looked at the spelling...tho it is upside down...it has the "t". I believe I have plans for the design, but maybe not full size.

I bought the airplane from Burt Brokow at a NWCLR swap meet, in Albany, OR. Lou had carved down the mounting lugs of a ST .60 to make the nose as narrow as possible. At 620 sq.inches, I'd say a ST .60 was a little overkill. My intention was/is to put in either a ST G.51 or ASP/Magnum .53. I have studied it enough to locate at least some of the tail weight Lou added to make it rotate and come off the ground. The other problem with the design is that the main LG is way farther aft than it should be. But at least, it doesn't have the high tail of the Carousel...

The original won the '58 NATS with a Fox .35 Stunt, probably on 25% nitro or more. I well remember reading the article in the library in Pullman Jr.High/HS when the magazine was close to fresh off the presses. Always liked the design, but would suggest some more modern construction techniques. While Burt owned it, Pete Peterson flew it in SLC, and said it was a bit strange to fly, with the odd profile view. Probably Gordan flew it, too.

Steve

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #27 on:** March 09, 2018, 02:14:09 PM »

Charles,
My Carousel is no more.. I got too fancy with the controls and a piece rubbed internally around neutral. It made it impossible to land. I found the problem when I tore the airplane apart. If I didn't have too many projects I would build another. I think the airplane is potentially a very good flyer.

Avaiojet · « **Reply #28 on:** March 09, 2018, 02:55:57 PM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on March 09, 2018, 02:14:09 PM

Charles,
My Carousel is no more.. I got too fancy with the controls and a piece rubbed internally around neutral. It made it impossible to land. I found the problem when I tore the airplane apart. If I didn't have too many projects I would build another. I think the airplane is potentially a very good flyer.

Tom,

My condolences.

I would really be interested in seeing a Build Thread on a twin boom.

Be nice to see you do one.

You know I've built a few so I might just have to do a twin boom Build Thread with the junk I have hanging around if no one steps forward.

Gotta get Pushy Galore done first.

tom creasey · « **Reply #29 on:** March 10, 2018, 07:02:34 AM »

When I first seen the plane .....I told myself I gotta build one of those......thanks for starting the thread on this plane. It is great to read about the history of the plane.

Thank you to the ones who watch our show. If ya'll have any question feel free to chime in.

I will be doing a radical paint job. Getting close to paint. Installed all the fillets last night on the show.

Ya'll have any more pictures ....please.....post

Thank you for everyone's support

Will Hinton · « **Reply #30 on:** March 10, 2018, 09:13:03 AM »

On reply #19, yes Charles, that is my third Ephesian twin boomer. I had a chance to send it south with a gentleman in exchange for a ton of cash and an engine I needed, so have no idea what ever became of it. He promised to keep me informed, but failed to do so and I later learned that he was quite undependable according to several other fliers. The design was/is a very good performer, the original had a piped 46VF for power and I simply wore the faithful old beast out.
The second was too porky to be consistent, but now you have me in the mood to build a fourth one. Maybe next winter?

tom creasey · « **Reply #31 on:** March 10, 2018, 11:27:35 AM »

on reply from #30.....Will Horton glad it inspired ya.....My weight so far with everything but wheels and tip weight......it is 35.8 oz's.....what did your good flyer weigh?

Also no paint yet.....the finish will weigh no more than 8 oz's

Will Hinton · « **Reply #32 on:** March 10, 2018, 02:22:42 PM »

The original Ephesian was 730 squares and weighed in the high 60's. The airfoil was designed for our gusty northwestern Ohio winds so the VF had no trouble towing it around and it penetrated very well. Number two was in the mid 70's and simply was a bust.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #33 on:** March 10, 2018, 02:35:53 PM »

Quote from: tom creasey on March 10, 2018, 07:02:34 AM

When I first seen the plane .....I told myself I gotta build one of those......thanks for starting the thread on this plane. It is great to read about the history of the plane.

Thank you to the ones who watch our show. If ya'll have any question feel free to chime in.

I will be doing a radical paint job. Getting close to paint. Installed all the fillets last night on the show.

Ya'll have any more pictures ....please.....post

Thank you for everyone's support

Show?

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #34 on:** March 10, 2018, 03:50:15 PM »

Ref #29

Tom,
I think that is Mackey's Crusader

Tom N

tom creasey · « **Reply #35 on:** March 11, 2018, 10:50:03 AM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on March 10, 2018, 02:35:53 PM

Show?

Yes .....We do google hangouts every monday and friday night at 9pm. Go to the bench and click on our link. Stunthangar hangout.

Will I be seeing you at Polk City this year Willy ?

tom creasey · « **Reply #36 on:** March 11, 2018, 10:51:07 AM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on March 10, 2018, 03:50:15 PM

Ref #29

Tom,
I think that is Mackey's Crusader

Tom N

I think so too......The kit is laser cut from Eric Rule RSM

tom creasey · « **Reply #37 on:** March 11, 2018, 10:56:34 AM »

I googled Gabelschwanz images and found out there where stabilzer/elevator tips.....so I installed

Had someone tell me that is will make the plane NOT legal for Classic event.....Will that be true ?

I think the tips is what the plane needed to look right......What's your opinion ?

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #38 on:** March 11, 2018, 05:26:26 PM »

Tom, the Gobbleswantz has swept fins (no rudders and no stabilizer or elevator tips outboard of the fins) and is quite a bit larger than your Crusader. If the tips you added to the horizontal stabilizer are not on the plans, they are definitely not "correct". But unless it's been changed recently, there is also nothing in the Official Classic Rules that allows anybody to disqualify any model for modifications.

For the Gobbleswantz (possibly other Mackey designs with trike gear also?), I would certainly move the main gear forward so that it'd be much closer to the CG (see Pathfinder plans). Nothing against it. Some Classics, I'd reduce the wing offset, and again, there's nothing against it. Most Classic models had bigger inboard flaps...so change it...no problem. Any changes would cost points for appearance, and that's it, a point or two, and that is IF the judges spot your modification. You don't have to tell them, so unless they ask, don't.

Steve

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #39 on:** March 12, 2018, 02:53:14 PM »

That why Fidelity points were added. Most CD's ignore them because they are not familiar with the airplanes.

In some cases they are ignored because they want better attendance. But that doesn't exclude the airplane from competing.

All that is required is to ask if any changes were made to the design. If the answer is yes, you give up the fidelity points.

If I am CD or judging I require the fidelity points

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #40 on:** March 13, 2018, 05:07:18 PM »

I just scanned the picture of Lou Wolgast with his Gobbelswantz and me with my Carousel. Picture was taken at VSC IX

tom creasey · « **Reply #41 on:** March 13, 2018, 05:33:52 PM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on March 13, 2018, 05:07:18 PM

I just scanned the picture of Lou Wolgast with his Gobbelswantz and me with my Carousel. Picture was taken at VSC IX

SWEET PLANES !!!! I notice......does the middle flap operational on the white plane and the main flaps are on the outboard of booms?

My tail is different.....rudder,elevator tips.....I guess it is builders choice.....LOL. Thanks for sharing Tom

john e. holliday · « **Reply #42 on:** March 13, 2018, 09:06:24 PM »

I must need glasses as I don't see any thing out side of the booms on the stab/elevator. Also in the picture two completely different planes.

Robert Whitley · « **Reply #43 on:** March 13, 2018, 10:21:33 PM »

I must confess that I am absolutely “GOBBLESMACKED” at the interest this thread has generated.

Objects of unusual interest such as this should be persued and encouraged as there is obviously an intrigued audience to lap it up.

Guys and gals let’s keep building the enthusiasm for things past, present and future in this great educational pursuit that we call model aviation.

Cheers

Robert Whitley · « **Reply #44 on:** March 13, 2018, 10:25:54 PM »

By the way the title of stunner rather than stunter was just the idiotic auto-correct but I thought it was ironically appropriate.

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #45 on:** March 13, 2018, 11:31:43 PM »

seeing someone said ' twin boom ' , might be relephant . Fox 35 , 1965 .
previos plane was Grondal Nobler/ A M A Special ,
so airfoil at least might match . Wing is similar . Said to Fly well . in English .

Willum do it one day .

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #46 on:** March 13, 2018, 11:33:13 PM »

Oh Dear.

Think this is a modified Gieske Nobler kit .

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #47 on:** March 14, 2018, 07:17:37 AM »

If I order one, does the plane-holder come with it?

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #48 on:** March 14, 2018, 02:18:46 PM »

Tom,
The white Gobbleswantz has operational flaps full span, including the section between the booms.

The Carousel has an operational flap only between the booms. The Carousel originally has a small outboard flap at the tip that had a counterweight inside the wing that was an experimental method to compensate for asymmetrical wings. It didn't work too well so that tip flap can be used fixed or as an adjustable trim device.

Bill Suarez's P-38 that was in Model Airplane News is also a great Classic boomer.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #49 on:** March 14, 2018, 03:07:24 PM »

Quote from: tom creasey on March 13, 2018, 05:33:52 PM

SWEET PLANES !!!! I notice......does the middle flap operational on the white plane and the main flaps are on the outboard of booms?

My tail is different.....rudder,elevator tips.....I guess it is builders choice.....LOL. Thanks for sharing Tom

Tom, your model is very clearly the Crusader...and it's the only Mackey 'boomer' that RSM kits. The bigger swept fin 'boomer' I have is the Gobbleswantz, and the high tail model is the Carousel. Charles Mackey designed them all. I don't know of any other Mackey 'boomers', but it wouldn't surprise me a lot if there were a few more that weren't published.

Steve