Mystery 1/2A

[pmackenzie]

This was posted on another site. I would post a link, but I think Sparky doesn't like that.

The guy who posted built it in the 60's and thinks it was a Sterling kit. He wants to restore it and is not sure the rudder is the right shape.

Anyone recognize it?


Thanks,

Pat MacKenzie

[Dan McEntee]

   I notice the plastic engine and landing gear mount. That looks like Sterling, but later than the 60's or at least late 60's. It resembles the Fokker E-1 Eindecker. I have another possibility in mind but can't quite come up with it. I'm going to search through an old SIG catalog and see what I can find. Back in the 60's era they carried just about everything made. Stay tuned for further developments as they become available!
  MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
   Dan McEntee

[bill bischoff]

I think that was a kit from CMI or IMC or some combination of those letters. They also made the "Guillotine" combat airplane. The plastic engine mount is probably not stock or original. They had ads in magazines in the early '70s.

[GallopingGhostler]

Back around February 1973, I bought a 1/2-A Sterling Beginner's Fokker E-III Eindecker. It had the 2 piece sheet aluminum motor mount. The later kits, don't know what year went to the 1 piece nylon motor mount. I bought several Beginner's kits in the late 1980's into the early 1990's, and they had the nylon. It must have been a cost savings move.

Seems to be a non-scale look alike along the same philosophy of the Proctor Antic R/C plane. Wouldn't be hard to "kit bash" the Eindecker to resemble it.

[pmackenzie]

Thanks for the replies so far

I agree the rudder looks fine.  If it was mine I would probably clean it up a bit, and leave it as is. Can't beat that "patina".

Then make a new one from measurements, if that is what you want ( a new one you could fly).

[Dan McEntee]

I think that was a kit from CMI or IMC or some combination of those letters. They also made the "Guillotine" combat airplane. The plastic engine mount is probably not stock or original. They had ads in magazines in the early '70s.

     Bill triggered a memory and that made looking easier.  It is a CMI " Old Timer", just like the wing says. CMI was Carr Manufacturing Inc. Rudder shape looks about right according to the photo in the old SIG catalog, just might be mounted a little more forward and doesn't have a big scallop at the bottom. The photo in the catalog shows a built up wooden mount. Restoration should be a snap, as the model looks to be complete and just needs refinishing.

   The catalog shows a snap together glider that I am curious about that CMI had out that that time called the Invader. looks kind of like an A-6 Intruder. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

   MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
     Dan McEntee

[pmackenzie]

I knew this was the right place to ask
I will let the guy know over on RCG
Any chance you can post a picture of the catalogue page?
Higher res the better
Or email me if it is too big to post on here.

Thanks,

Pat MacKenzie

[GallopingGhostler]

Self don't have any data on which manufacturer, but wanted to contribute:

With a decent to-scale sketch of the fuselage and flying surfaces, your model would be very easy to replicate, especially since (I last checked) Brodak, Cox International and Ex Model Engines all had the same replacement plastic engine mount (photo attached). I picked up a couple a few years ago. The advantage to this one is that it will also fit the later Cox non-tank horseshoe back engines, with choke tube removed (it will run fine without).

Given that a number of the legacy engines, OK Cub and a few others with tank including the last Testors Series 9000 (not the earlier front rotary valve with tank mount) use the Cox tank bolt pattern, one is not limited to Cox only with the mount.

Plane I show is the Goldberg profile Swordsman 18 with an OK Cub .049 and Testors 9000 .049, which were direct bolt in swap replacements for the Cox .049 Babe Bee (not shown). The Swordsman doesn't use a nylon mount, just showing fit.

With an OK Cub or K&B .049 Stallion with tank (I think uses same bolt pattern), you could retain that vintage look to it.

[Dan McEntee]

I knew this was the right place to ask
I will let the guy know over on RCG
Any chance you can post a picture of the catalogue page?
Higher res the better
Or email me if it is too big to post on here.

Thanks,

Pat MacKenzie

    Pat;
  PM me with an email address I can email a picture to or a cell number I can text a photo to. I can do that but not smart enough to post pics here.
  MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

  Dan McEntee

[pmackenzie]

Sent you my email,

Thanks again,

Pat

[pmackenzie]

Mystery solved

Here is the image Dan sent me, pretty clear it is the right model.

I remember the Guillotines from back in the day, but don't think I ever built one.

[Larry Renger]

Just for historical note, I designed that mount for John Brodak as a favor while at Cox. The previous ones were really awful. I also did a bellcrank and control horn set far superior to currently available, but he never tooled them up.

However, I think Bernie has the files in the stash he was sent, and the tooling wouldn’t be that expensive.

Or if someone is interested I can dig up the Autocad files and some young expert could generate the necessary 3D printer input.

[GallopingGhostler]

Just for historical note, I designed that mount for John Brodak as a favor while at Cox. The previous ones were really awful. I also did a bellcrank and control horn set far superior to currently available, but he never tooled them up.

Thanks Larry for the history lesson and your involvement in designing the mount, and no doubt the materials and methods that went into that mount. 30 years ago, one could order the mounts from Sterling. I am glad that because of your work these are still available and in addition to the tank engines also suitable also for redeeming the horseshoe back product engines for use on profile C/L's.

However, I think Bernie has the files in the stash he was sent, and the tooling wouldn’t be that expensive. Or if someone is interested I can dig up the Autocad files and some young expert could generate the necessary 3D printer input.

There is a 3D printing interest in Cox Engine Forums, a few members have purchased 3d equipment. Some of their limited production run products, such as 3D printed engine mount similar to the long out of production CG EB-1 for earlier postage stamp back "190", "290" product engines. One of them came up with a 3D scaled down version of the horseshoe back for .020 Pee Wees. They might be interested.

I think an interesting variation of the profile half-A mount would be a modification to readily permit choke tube use. This may require a design modification in how the landing gear music wire is bent where it clips into the mount held in place by the engine, or may be require a 2 piece design of a sort. Or, possibly a 3D printed spacer adapter that allows the existing mount to be used to accommodate the choke tube.

Next time I post in CEF I'll mention to those with 3d equipment if interested to contact you, Larry.

[Gordon Van Tighem]

I have one, the rudder looks correct. I’ll send a photo when I can get to the storage room ( through the snow)
It is one of about 3 kits made in the 70s. I built all 3, but my kids operated on one with a screwdriver. The other 2 still fly.
Gord V

[Dave_Trible]

The airplane in question is indeed the CMI Old Timer.  The glider you mentioned was a folding wing sling launched glider based upon something similar from Jim Walker way back.  I flew for the CMI factory team and worked a couple weeks in the summers at the factory when a teen and could travel to Des Moines and stayed with the Fred Miller's.  I think I still have a copy of one of the gliders around here someplace.  We would practice with the combat and stunt stuff during the day and go in the evening out to a local sod farm and sling gliders and other free flight.

Dave

That reminded me;  Johnny Carr was so proud to 'find' this new special glue to hold the wing bearings in the glider.  It was really something unique to all of us at the time.  We call it Cya now.

[Scott Richlen]

I think I still have a copy of one of the gliders around here someplace.

Dave:

That glider is really cute.  It looks like it had the folding wing gizmo which make them really fun to fly!

Can you find it and make a tracing of it for us and post it here?  That would be greatly appreciated!

[Dave_Trible]

Scott I'll look.

Dave

[Dave_Trible]

Found!

[Dan McEntee]

   Thanks Dave!!! That design may have lived another life as The Florio Flyer, I think, but can't remember the name of the company that made it. I have several of the AJ Aircraft models and we used to get the Florio Flyer up at SIG in the early days, but I don't think I have any parts or pieces of any of those left laying around. I like the nice round lines of the line art version in the ad. If yu ever make tracings, put me in line for a set.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Scott Richlen]

This is great!  I built an AJ Interceptor from plans years ago and pretty much wore it out.  It was a lot of fun to fly.  I cut up an aluminum can for those wire retainers on the wing root.  I wore them out pretty quickly and then tried aluminum tubes.  Not sure what I'll use this time.

Looking forward to your tracings!  Thanks for finding that Dave!

[Gordon Van Tighem]

http://www.americanjuniorclassics.com/interceptor/interceptorhistory.htm

[pmackenzie]

The plans for the Intercepter are on Outerzone:
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5651

[Dan McEntee]

The plans for the Intercepter are on Outerzone:
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5651

     I built 4 of those during the layoff from work this past spring. After building the first one, I decided that the tail surfaces are bigger than they need to be, and for the next three I made the vertical and horizontal stabs reduced to about 80% of the size they are on the plan. It helps with balancing the airplanes and they look better and still fly well. It doesn't mention it in the building instructions, but I formed the wings a bit into a curve by dampening them down a bit and securing them to a big metal coffee can for 24 hours, and this was after I had the metal wing root pieces secured on. I just let them hang off the top end of the can so they wouldn't get tweaked. These are great fun and very thermal worthy. Make templates of the colored outlines and decorate them with ball point pens and Sharpie markers.
    Type at you later and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
     Dan McEntee

[Bill Morell]

I built one of those "Old Timer" kits close to 45 years ago. I had a McCoy diesel 049 on mine.