My thoughts on the New Clover

[MikeyPratt]

Keith & All,
To my way of thinking changing the four-leaf clover is not so bad, after three flights I could do a reasonable looking fore leaf.  However, I don’t really think it needed to be changed in the first place, I did take awhile to get used to doing it that way.  I still have the urge to climb to 42 degrees to start the maneuver, but it’s getting better after a three dozen flights or so.  I understand the reason for changing it to better describe the maneuver, but we have been doing this way for so long now.

What this reminds me of is Al’s argument of when does the engine quit at the 79 Nat’s (because he had a dykes ring that would windmill longer than other engines).  It was at that point Ted Fancher & Les McDonald told me to just land like normal and don’t worry about.

Mikey

[Brett Buck]

What this reminds me of is Al’s argument of when does the engine quit at the 79 Nat’s (because he had a dykes ring that would windmill longer than other engines).  It was at that point Ted Fancher & Les McDonald told me to just land like normal and don’t worry about.

   It's very important to listen to the right people - and people don't get any righter than those two! 

   My advice to people is always about trying to separate out common sense from pedantry. There are many stunt people who will happily argue over the stunt equivalent of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, endlessly, because the event filters for perfectionists - myself very much included, and it is very easy to lose your perspective.  Far be it for me to tell people how to enjoy the hobby, but you have to avoid falling in the trap of questions like "what does 'square' mean?" unless it actually matters.

     Brett

[Steve Helmick]

I was expecting to read Brett say "The French changed the F2B rule first". It does make sense that we should change the Clover entry to be the same as FAI, so our future team members won't have to change just for a WC and potentially make a mistake that costs them a WC.   

As for myself, I've yet to either see or do a Clover with the new entry, but don't see how it could make the maneuver ugly...probably would make it prettier, I think. Easier to judge, probably easier to fly also. Like the entry to the OH8 (or OH9), there is no need to hammer the entry corner, so don't do that!  Steve

[John Lindberg]

When does this new rule take effect, if at all? Thank you, John Lindberg.

[Trostle]

When does this new rule take effect, if at all? Thank you, John Lindberg.

As explained several times on this forum, the "new rule" became effective on January 1, 2022.

Keith

[Brett Buck]

I was expecting to read Brett say "The French changed the F2B rule first".

      If that was the sole reason, it would be a very bad one. However, with respect to Derek's opinion, I don't see it as much of a change or particularly important to do it either way. After trying it a few times last year, I kind of like it. But I also wouldn't care very much if it got put back, either, which I expect to be proposed very soon, if it hasn't already. Again, to me, for my own money, it's not enough to get worked up about either way.

    I am again amazed at the fact that many people were unaware of the change at all, but it happens every cycle.

     Brett

[John Lindberg]

As explained several times on this forum, the "new rule" became effective on January 1, 2022.

Keith

Ok, thanks.

[Trostle]

Ok, thanks.

You are welcome.

The proposed change was made to the AMA more than 1 1/2 years ago and has been the subject on this forum since before that time.

Keith

[Doug Moon]

You are welcome.

The proposed change was made to the AMA more than 1 1/2 years ago and has been the subject on this forum since before that time.

Keith

Hello Keith,

I sent you a PM asking a question. It wasn't about this topic.

Thank you
Doug

[Curt D Contrata]

I have been on the sidelines for a while, but this reminds me of a conversation I had with Gene Martine at the end of top 20 day in maybe 1999 or 2000. My thoughts back then were that the clover was being flown wrong.

I have agreed with many points made here, and while I like the idea of changing the entry point, I see Derek’s point of this change making it easier to fly. My thought back years ago was to make the entry point diving down from the top by pulling up in front of the judges and making the bottom right, outside loop first.

Bottom right 3/4 outside loop from a dive through the center, then a 3/4 outside loop bottom left, then a 3/4 inside loop top right, then a 3/4 inside loop top left, with a 90 degree pull out from vertical to level flight.

If not a fan of outside bottom right followed by outside bottom left, it could be flown as bottom right, top left, bottom left, top right, dive to exit at level flight.

This is a moot point now especially since FAI adopted a change, but in my opinion this would likely be more difficult than what it is currently written and could look a bit better.

No dog in this fight, I am just an outsider at this point. I never liked how the traditional clover had a round loop at the top right but totally respected tradition.

Hope all of you are well,


Curt

[Trostle]

Hello Keith,

I sent you a PM asking a question. It wasn't about this topic.

Thank you
Doug

Doug,

Message sent two days ago.

Keith

[Doug Moon]

Doug,

Message sent two days ago.

Keith

I resent it yesterday.

Doug

[Steve Fitton]

Where is the thread on how to actually fly the new clover? I have flown dozens and dozens of flights the last few weeks, and the new clover is still killing me....

[Motorman]

You just do a down wind wing over and when you get a little past 45 degrees you do your first loop then the rest is the same as before. What part are you having trouble with?


Motorman

[Dan McEntee]

Where is the thread on how to actually fly the new clover? I have flown dozens and dozens of flights the last few weeks, and the new clover is still killing me....

  And accurate description will be in the new rules book posted at the AMA web site. It's best to get it right from the horses mouth.

     https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/CL%20Precision%20Aerobatics%202022-2023.pdf


 Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

A video would be nice.  I have several but my systems are down while I move my office.  For me the hardest part of the transition was remembering to not climb to 42 on the entry lap.

Ken

[fred cesquim]

My thoughts on the New Clover: ok, changed, let´s try. Done.

i had spend 3 decades flying c/l and took it seriously on last 2 years so it takes me about 30 years to learnt the clover, as soon as i did it, rules changed LOL
that´s life. I like the new one

[Steve Fitton]

You just do a down wind wing over and when you get a little past 45 degrees you do your first loop then the rest is the same as before. What part are you having trouble with?


Motorman

I think I am coming out of the vertical pitch into the maneuver either too high or too low *every single time* which results in either goofy shapes or a terrifyingly low pullout every time.

[Motorman]

You could go into that first loop a little high, won't hurt nothing, then when you come around, make sure to level out at a good height and that will set up the rest of the loops real nice. If you level out too low, just go around.

Motorman

[Jim Svitko]

I see no problem with the new clover.  I like it, from a maneuver entry point, and from a symmetry perspective.  Four 270 degree loops, and you enter from level flight.  All I need is much more practice.

For me, the old clover was rather tough.  Entering at the proper height (38 degrees? 42degrees?) was impossible for me.  I never got the first loop right.

I prefer to leave it alone now.  Everything seems to flow better with the new one, so why go back to the old one?  I know, not everyone will agree.

[john e. holliday]

I got to watch a few flights at Brodaks and it looked to me like the people were making it look easier than the old way.  The thought of climbing into the wind still terrifies me but I haven't flown a pattern in almost two years.

[Doug Moon]

I think I am coming out of the vertical pitch into the maneuver either too high or too low *every single time* which results in either goofy shapes or a terrifyingly low pullout every time.

I have now flown it many times. While at first glance it makes it easier to perform the maneuver as a whole. It also makes it easier to miss the first horizontal 45 degree pass high. And it will be GLARING!  It also makes it VERY easy for judges to see the intersections.  At the upper levels where scores get very close and flying gets very technical I think this could be harder in the end. That's just me thinking out loud....

[Ken Culbertson]

I got to watch a few flights at Brodaks and it looked to me like the people were making it look easier than the old way.  The thought of climbing into the wind still terrifies me but I haven't flown a pattern in almost two years.

A lot of very good fliers, maybe even most would hold that exit past direct overhead because the wingover exit was more "professional".  It was also not judged (unfortunately).  I used to subscribe to that but since coming back I have gone to the over the shoulder exit as soon as I know I am past the end point.  I am still doing it that way with the new clover but I think I am going to start exiting the same way you do the H8.  I empathize with Doug.  I just looked at a video of my first new clover since it became official.  Cute little thing.  Maybe we should consider putting the horizontal at 30 degrees.

Ken