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Author Topic: My thoughts on the New Clover  (Read 11826 times)

Offline Derek Barry

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My thoughts on the New Clover
« on: May 15, 2022, 06:17:15 AM »
I just returned home from the Joe Nall, and after spending 4 days judging and flying the new clover,  I have some observations. 

  First, I guess I should thank whoever came up with this unwanted and unnecessary change in our event, as it will certainly boost my Nats score by a couple points, but that is not how I feel after watching it flown. Whomever is responsible for taking a beautiful pattern that we have flown for 60+ years and turning it into an ugly, technical mess should have their head examined. The entry to the clover, even done my way with a quarter loop, is simply ugly. The 90° entry that I saw almost everyone else flying, is even more appalling. I am no fan of the "Walker" entry to the outside square either.  If you're not man enough to drive the plane to the ground from 45°, just say it.

I just wanted to vent about the destruction of a beautiful pattern, and warn people that I am now on the Contest Board and I will fight vigorously to prevent these needless and frankly, stupid changes in the future. I hope everyone has a wonderful day.

Derek
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 06:48:07 AM by Derek Barry »

Offline dale gleason

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2022, 07:23:40 AM »
I think I saw the "new" pattern flown for the first time around 1956, there in Ruston, La. That same year I saw George Aldrich win stunt in Longview, TX, flying that pattern with his Maroon and Yellow Nobler. Left me breathless both times.

Then, I was 14 years old, now 79. For sixty-five years the Clover was the great challenge and it was difficult to master, but very rewarding for me when it was occasionally well flown.

No biggie, but personally, for what it's worth, I believe there was no necessity to have made this change to our Stunt Pattern.

dg

Just an addendum...I've got a few flights in my log book flying the new Cloverleaf, and although I didn't feel a need for change, I do not find any adverse effects of the change. My airplane still does whatever I cause it to do and the change is quite simple to accomplish. 

So there!

dg

   

 

   
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 05:33:53 PM by dale gleason »

Offline Motorman

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2022, 07:40:38 AM »
Not familiar with the Walker entry to the outside squares.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2022, 09:28:48 AM »
Not familiar with the Walker entry to the outside squares.

It's just disinformation. Why bother.

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2022, 10:05:19 AM »
It's just disinformation. Why bother.

🤣🤣🤣

Online jerry v

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2022, 10:15:10 AM »
I heard about a new proposal of square Clover with entry from inverted flight at 42 degrees.

Jerry
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Online AMV

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2022, 10:49:42 AM »
I don't understand what is so ugly about a naturally symmetric four-leaf clover figure.
Shakespeare once said, "That which we call a clover, by any other means of entry, will still look as good."

Cheers H^^
-Andrey
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Online Dave Rigotti

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2022, 12:39:45 PM »
I'm convinced that to some stunt flyers that we should still be buying 1957 cars too!
Dave Rigotti
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Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2022, 12:59:49 PM »
Derek and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one (hey, we've never disagreed before...  LL~).

I too have flown the new clover entry and I like it much better than the old one - not that I ever had any trouble doing that entry. The new entry and maneuver description yields a much more symmetrical and prettier maneuver. My opinion of course.

I was - and still am - on the CL Stunt contest board, and I voted - as did the majority of the members - to make this change. I have no intentions of "having my head examined" (Like Sheldon Cooper, my mother had me tested when I was a child...). And, I sort of resent the notion that a duly enacted change, done through the proper channels renders me some sort of a mentally deficient guy. Change is part of life, and there have been many changes in the rules that I have not entirely agreed with, but I have never called for heads to be examined because of it.

Bob Hunt       

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2022, 01:30:18 PM »
I'm convinced that to some stunt flyers that we should still be buying 1957 cars too!

I sure wish I was buying a 1957 Corvette!!  ;D ;D
Doug Moon
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2022, 03:23:45 PM »
I'm convinced that to some stunt flyers that we should still be buying 1957 cars too!
We call planes designed before 1970 "Classic", but a pattern introduced in 1958 is called "Modern"?  In the 60 years since my first pattern, I believe that the change to the Clover is the first change to the way a maneuver is flown.  I might be wrong, but I can't come up with one.  Even this change was only to get the maneuver flyable by its definition.  I can't understand how changing the entry point suddenly made it ugly. Personally, I think it looks better.  If it were up to me, and it never will be so don't overreact, I would scrap the entire pattern and design a new one.  That is the polar opposite of what started this discussion.  The difference is that I don't think you should have your head examined for not seeing it my way.

Ken
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Online Dan Berry

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2022, 03:24:55 PM »
Everyone at this weekend's meet in Eldorado was enthusiastic about the new entry for the clover.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2022, 03:26:07 PM »
I sure wish I was buying a 1957 Corvette!!  ;D ;D
Don't do it!  You will be too old to fly stunt anymore by the time you refinished it! LL~

Ken
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2022, 04:48:29 PM »
Derek and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one (hey, we've never disagreed before...  LL~).

I too have flown the new clover entry and I like it much better than the old one - not that I ever had any trouble doing that entry. The new entry and maneuver description yields a much more symmetrical and prettier maneuver. My opinion of course.

I was - and still am - on the CL Stunt contest board, and I voted - as did the majority of the members - to make this change. I have no intentions of "having my head examined" (Like Sheldon Cooper, my mother had me tested when I was a child...). And, I sort of resent the notion that a duly enacted change, done through the proper channels renders me some sort of a mentally deficient guy. Change is part of life, and there have been many changes in the rules that I have not entirely agreed with, but I have never called for heads to be examined because of it.

Bob Hunt     

Hey Bob,
 I wasn't referring to you or anyone on the board specifically. I have no issue with the process or the vote. My predecessor voted in favor of the change and I have no objection to his vote other than i didn't really know it was happening.

Perhaps I should have been more proactive in monitoring the forum for rule changes proposals, but I wasn't, and I didn't know about the rule change until it was already complete. As a CB member,  I will do my best to contact all competitors in my district, and conduct a poll on all rule changes. I don't believe we should make pattern altering decisions without very public discussion, and feedback. 

Admittedly, I haven't looked to see who's name is on the proposal,  but I have a pretty good idea, based on reading though the forum, who's idea it was in the first place. Call me old fashioned,  stubborn,  or simply a traditionalist,  but I don't take lightly to things being altered for no apparent reason,  especially when it affects the way we compete at the US Nationals.

 As I stated previously,  thanks for the extra points.

Derek.

Offline Motorman

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2022, 05:03:54 PM »
It's just disinformation. Why bother.

The OP of that thread didn't get any answers either.

Online AMV

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2022, 08:09:40 PM »
I'm convinced that to some stunt flyers that we should still be buying 1957 cars too!

I'm too young and I'm not a car guy at all, but I have to admit that there is something really beautiful about the 1957 Chevy Bel Air...
Spice is the variety of life.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2022, 07:52:28 AM »
Is there a video of the new clover? ???
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Online AMV

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2022, 09:06:46 AM »
Is there a video of the new clover? ???

I just reviewed all the videos from last year's "Before the Snow Flies" event.  All the Experts at that meet performed it the old way. Perhaps someone else has one.
Spice is the variety of life.

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2022, 12:22:47 PM »
I just reviewed all the videos from last year's "Before the Snow Flies" event.  All the Experts at that meet performed it the old way. Perhaps someone else has one.

They performed it the "old way"at that contest because the new Clover entry was not a rule until January 1.

Bob Hunt

Offline Norm Faith Jr.

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2022, 12:34:48 PM »
First of all, I do not profess to be a "world class judge," but I just spent the whole weekend judging some damn (well known) good flyers. IMHO the new entry into the clover, seems to make the stunt easier to accomplish properly and better establishes the intersection for the judges.
Norm
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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2022, 01:24:50 PM »
I sure wish I was buying a 1957 Corvette!!  ;D ;D
I just wish I had my 57 ragtop back!
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2022, 01:36:31 PM »
Is there a video of the new clover? ???

I hesitate to put a trim flight out there since it is the first flight after removing a major warp and it has some serious trim problems.  Major hunting, boost is all wrong, turns are unequal and the timer, handle settings, CG were bad.  Tip weight and leadouts were OK. LL~   All has been corrected and she flies sweet now. Unfortunately this is the only new Clover I caught on video.  There is an example of the new clover at 5:05.  It is tighter than I would like, still getting used to the logarythmic.  I tried to edit to just show that but gave up.



Ken
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Teodorico Terry

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2022, 02:12:34 PM »
I used to fly stunt when young and I have started flying once again.  In between I spent a fair amount of time flying R/C; the past 10 years mostly focused on Pattern. I have heard people say that Pattern makes for a boring spectator sport; everything is flown very smoothly with very few sudden eye catching maneuvers. Unless you are a pilot most people do not understand the skill needed to fly the sequence well. I think that the same holds true for stunt, specially since the sequence has really not changed in many years.  For whatever reason, I see the vertical entry into the clover as being more elegant or at least more eye catching to a spectator.

Maybe I don't remember things well but I thought that at some point in the vertical 8 was entered from 45 degrees with the top loop being an inside which was flown first  followed by an outside lower loop.  If it was never meant to be flown that way I guess that I missed the memo but I certainly liked flying it that way more than the current or proper way.

Teo

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2022, 03:58:10 PM »
Teodorico,
The center entry to the vertical eight is in the Old Time Pattern. Nobody flys it that way but it is an option for the flier.

Best,    DennisT

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2022, 04:05:30 PM »
Thanks for the video.  Now to get in shape to fly it. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2022, 04:51:45 PM »
No biggie, but personally, for what it's worth, I believe there was no necessity to have made this change to our Stunt Pattern. 

   While I kind of, sort-of like the new version, it's not all that big a deal either way - old way, new way, still pretty easy maneuver.

     I think the original reason was to "make it like FAI" which I agree is not a particularly good reason. But it seems like a mostly trivial change to me, so I didn't expend a lot of effort thinking about it.

       Brett

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2022, 06:32:43 PM »
Okay, adding to what Brett wrote, this change is not much of a big deal. It does make the maneuver more symmetrical (and in my opinion much better looking) it does help define the intersection point better at the beginning of the maneuver (for both the pilot and the judge), and it does take one twist out of the lines, albeit near the end of the pattern.

I can't help thinking that George Aldrich (who designed the pattern we have flown since 1958) is looking down at this change and is hitting himself in the forehead with his fist (Homer Simpson style...), while uttering a loud "dooh," and saying, "Of course!" He took pains to design a pattern that logically took all but three twists out of lines as the flight proceeded. The three that don't cancel are the Triangles, the Vertical Eight, and up till now the Clover. Perhaps the "next" change should be the addition of an Outside Triangle. And, after that a 45 degree entry to the Vertical Eight (like the option in the Old Tyme Stunt pattern) that would prevent the twist in the lines from doing that stupid whole inside loop at the beginning of the maneuver. The Horizontal Eight has that whole loop at the beginning, but it also has a whole outside at the end to cancel the twist. Sometimes tradition is just that; tradition. And, if we did remove those two unnecessary loops, we could add the Outside Triangles with very little added pattern time (just the extra level laps for scoring...) Old George did a great job with the pattern. With just a few tweaks it could be made even better and more logical. Just sayin'.

Okay traditionalists, flame away

Bob Hunt         

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2022, 04:04:59 AM »
   While I kind of, sort-of like the new version, it's not all that big a deal either way - old way, new way, still pretty easy maneuver.

     I think the original reason was to "make it like FAI" which I agree is not a particularly good reason. But it seems like a mostly trivial change to me, so I didn't expend a lot of effort thinking about it.

       Brett

Considering the fact that 99% of stunt pilots enter the old clover incorrectly, I'm not sure I would say it's "easy". Almost everyone enters above 42° and drops down to the correct height,  enters below 42° and tightens up the entry loop to hit the mark, or they blow it completely. Which 99% of pilots wouldn't know 45° if it was printed on their eyeballs either, but I digress. 

If the original reason was to follow FAI, I have more reason to object, however, I suspect that it most likely came from one busy-body who likes to quibble about things like what the correct altitude for level flight is. I am rarely in favor of change, just for the sake of change, even if it is trivial. 

Derek

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2022, 04:13:06 AM »
Okay, adding to what Brett wrote, this change is not much of a big deal. It does make the maneuver more symmetrical (and in my opinion much better looking) it does help define the intersection point better at the beginning of the maneuver (for both the pilot and the judge), and it does take one twist out of the lines, albeit near the end of the pattern.

I can't help thinking that George Aldrich (who designed the pattern we have flown since 1958) is looking down at this change and is hitting himself in the forehead with his fist (Homer Simpson style...), while uttering a loud "dooh," and saying, "Of course!" He took pains to design a pattern that logically took all but three twists out of lines as the flight proceeded. The three that don't cancel are the Triangles, the Vertical Eight, and up till now the Clover. Perhaps the "next" change should be the addition of an Outside Triangle. And, after that a 45 degree entry to the Vertical Eight (like the option in the Old Tyme Stunt pattern) that would prevent the twist in the lines from doing that stupid whole inside loop at the beginning of the maneuver. The Horizontal Eight has that whole loop at the beginning, but it also has a whole outside at the end to cancel the twist. Sometimes tradition is just that; tradition. And, if we did remove those two unnecessary loops, we could add the Outside Triangles with very little added pattern time (just the extra level laps for scoring...) Old George did a great job with the pattern. With just a few tweaks it could be made even better and more logical. Just sayin'.

Okay traditionalists, flame away

Bob Hunt         

  I wasn't aware that the intent of the pattern was to unwind the lines.  ;)

 I guess you were correct in your original statement.  We will have to agree to disagree on the aesthetics of the new clover.

 Ah yes, the outside Triangle debate. Now, I am in favor of making the pattern more difficult,  but I have a serious question.  Outside Triangles,  point up or point down? I say point down.

Derek

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2022, 04:34:44 AM »
Hey! We finally agree on something old buddy!  #^ Yes, point down for sure. I know that David and Ted will agree with that (the point down thing; not changing the pattern...)

But, seriously, Isn't it time for a change or two? The RC Pattern schedules change even from year to year. That keeps it interesting. True, we need to be aware of the "twists in the lines" aspects of any proposed sequence, but the idea of eliminating the full inside loop at the beginning of the Vertical Eight, along with the already ditched full loop at the beginning of the Clover does make this change viable in the existing run times (more for FAI than for AMA, but good luck trying to convince FAI to do anything...).

We seem to have no problems (okay, well sometimes a lot of problems) updating the equipment we use to fly our 64-year-old schedule. Why is it such heresy to suggest some logical changes to the pattern?

Academically yours - Bob Hunt 

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2022, 07:21:16 AM »
Hey! We finally agree on something old buddy!  #^ Yes, point down for sure. I know that David and Ted will agree with that (the point down thing; not changing the pattern...)

But, seriously, Isn't it time for a change or two? The RC Pattern schedules change even from year to year. That keeps it interesting. True, we need to be aware of the "twists in the lines" aspects of any proposed sequence, but the idea of eliminating the full inside loop at the beginning of the Vertical Eight, along with the already ditched full loop at the beginning of the Clover does make this change viable in the existing run times (more for FAI than for AMA, but good luck trying to convince FAI to do anything...).

We seem to have no problems (okay, well sometimes a lot of problems) updating the equipment we use to fly our 64-year-old schedule. Why is it such heresy to suggest some logical changes to the pattern?

Academically yours - Bob Hunt
#^ #^ #^
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Offline BillLee

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2022, 08:06:15 AM »
Okay, adding to what Brett wrote, this change is not much of a big deal. It does make the maneuver more symmetrical (and in my opinion much better looking) it does help define the intersection point better at the beginning of the maneuver (for both the pilot and the judge), and it does take one twist out of the lines, albeit near the end of the pattern.

I can't help thinking that George Aldrich (who designed the pattern we have flown since 1958) is looking down at this change and is hitting himself in the forehead with his fist (Homer Simpson style...), while uttering a loud "dooh," and saying, "Of course!" He took pains to design a pattern that logically took all but three twists out of lines as the flight proceeded. The three that don't cancel are the Triangles, the Vertical Eight, and up till now the Clover. Perhaps the "next" change should be the addition of an Outside Triangle. And, after that a 45 degree entry to the Vertical Eight (like the option in the Old Tyme Stunt pattern) that would prevent the twist in the lines from doing that stupid whole inside loop at the beginning of the maneuver. The Horizontal Eight has that whole loop at the beginning, but it also has a whole outside at the end to cancel the twist. Sometimes tradition is just that; tradition. And, if we did remove those two unnecessary loops, we could add the Outside Triangles with very little added pattern time (just the extra level laps for scoring...) Old George did a great job with the pattern. With just a few tweaks it could be made even better and more logical. Just sayin'.

Okay traditionalists, flame away

Bob Hunt         

Can someone please explain to me how the new clover entry changes the number of twists left in the lines at the end of the pattern?

Bill Lee
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2022, 08:35:47 AM »
Maybe we need a rule change that allows either entry, pilots chose after telling the judges which entry will be flown. It seems that if the new entry is better for those flying FAI Worlds it would give them the option of flying it so they would be consistent in their practice and performance with the FAI pattern. For those that fly just the US AMA PA the option would allow flyers who are comfortable with the old entry to continue competing and not have to worry about making a wrong entry at the end of a flight were sometimes muscle memory takes over. If not in the PA pattern maybe a least for Classic/Super 70. Just some thoughts.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Claudio Chacon

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2022, 09:02:35 AM »
Yes,
Under FAI rules, you can enter the clover the way you want...(old or new entry) it's up to the pilot.
No need to tell the judges which one you are going to perform prior to the flight.

Claudio.

Online Dave Harmon

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2022, 09:21:07 AM »

The RC Pattern schedules change even from year to year. That keeps it interesting. 

Actually, The R/C Pattern schedule changes every TWO years but IMO should change every five years.
It is complex enough so that at the end of the 2 years.....many guys still cannot get enough practice time to fly it well enough to bother going to a contest.
Also....IMO....this is one of the things killing Pattern deader than road kill.
It has gotten to the point so that there is almost no challenge to the usual winners....uhh....guess who are on the contest board??

IMO....the mid level entry to the clover never did make any sense to me....I like the vertical entry much better.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2022, 09:21:40 AM »
Can someone please explain to me how the new clover entry changes the number of twists left in the lines at the end of the pattern?

Bill Lee
Bill I think you are right.  I was flying the new version long before it became the rule for various reasons and I don't recall having a wrap after my three outsides at the end.  Never gave it any thought, but if you look at the flight path, you are doing a full 360 degrees inside rotation when you reach the first flat regardless if you start at 5' or 42 degrees.  You just get there with an "e" rather than an "o".

Ken

One of the things I noticed immediately with the new clover was the lack of need to hold the 1st turn in wind.  I am a product of the 60's and both the overhead 8 and clover in a strong wind ranged from a religious experience to a rebuilding one.  If you made that turn too early you would most likely lose it and have to abort, too late and your 2nd and 3rd loops are a mess.
With the new version you are making your first turn into the wind instead of having to do it with a tail wind.  With the modern heavier overpowered ships that is not anywhere near the adrenalin producing event it was but it was one of the first things I noticed.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 09:39:58 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2022, 09:30:50 AM »
Just tried the arm chair new clover.  From level flight climb to do the inside upper right loop going across to do out side lower left outside loop climbing to another outside loop on upper left going across to do lower right in side loop to exit.  I hope the start and end is the center of the clover as when I get to top of circle I turn to go to level flight to my left.   All from pilots view.  Am I correct? ??? D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2022, 09:52:34 AM »
Just tried the arm chair new clover.  From level flight climb to do the inside upper right loop going across to do out side lower left outside loop climbing to another outside loop on upper left going across to do lower right in side loop to exit.  I hope the start and end is the center of the clover as when I get to top of circle I turn to go to level flight to my left.   All from pilots view.  Am I correct? ??? D>K
I think you are good.  The beauty of this entrance is that it gives you plenty of time to mentally and visually pick your vertical reference for intersections.  I center on my body and having to start over to my right always gave me fits.  So much so that I still cramp it on the 1st flat if I am not paying attention.  I noticed that it was that way on the video I posted but that was controls reacting about 25% faster on down than up...not good.

Cheers - Ken
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USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2022, 10:09:37 AM »
Can someone please explain to me how the new clover entry changes the number of twists left in the lines at the end of the pattern?

    It doesn't, he is talking about outside triangles and other changes, presumably to tweak Derek some more - which seems a bit unnecessary on several levels. "Outside triangles" were. among other things, a Wynn Paul/Stunt News April Fools Day gag before Derek could read (and maybe before he was born). It's not *that* crazy and idea, but if nothing else we aren't going to do that because it adds maybe 20-25 seconds.

      Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2022, 10:17:53 AM »
.... but if nothing else we aren't going to do that because it adds maybe 20-25 seconds.

      Brett
LL~  Maybe any rule change that changes the number of maneuvers should be accompanied by a certified check to reimburse everybody that had to build a new tank that won't fit.

Ken
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If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Phil Spillman

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2022, 10:29:31 AM »
I started to fly Stunt in 1985 after having flown Fast, Slow, 1/2 A and sport combat since 1960! I have grown to enjoy and coach all forms of Stunt especially OTS since '85. IMHO the New Clover is much more easy for me to execute than the "Old"! I think that the "New" Clover positions the start of the maneuver more easily and appropriately at least for me! As  a Judge the more easily symmetry may be located the better for all flyers! The entry point of the "Old" pattern was not easily found for many of us "older" folks! Please let us all know what the "New" entry to Squares is all about! Inquiring minds want to know.

Phil Spillman
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Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2022, 10:57:31 AM »
Can someone please explain to me how the new clover entry changes the number of twists left in the lines at the end of the pattern?

Bill Lee

Hi Bill:

As it stands now we have three twists in our lines (assuming that we started with "clean" lines in respect to twists or winds). The inside Triangles are not followed by outside Triangles. so there are two twists in the lines right there. The Vertical eight begins with a complete inside loop (and for the life of me I don't know why... We don't start the very next maneuver - the Hourglass - with an inside Triangle...) that is not cancelled by a complete outside loop at the maneuver's end, so there's another twist. I just now realized that there should be four twists at the end of the pattern because the old way of doing the Clover started with a complete inside loop that was not cancelled by a complete outside loop. I'm missing something here, so please someone enlighten me as to where that fourth "twist" went. You will see most fliers do three outsides at the end of the pattern just to take any extra friction out of the lines to allow for a smooth approach and landing.

Brett: I'm not tweaking Derek. In fact, we had a very productive and most friendly phone conversation this morning. And in that conversation we brainstormed a couple of new ideas that we intend to try at local meets in our areas. Derek and I understand each other's sense of humor and we enjoy the back and forth.

I fully realize that none of this talk about adding new maneuvers to the pattern will result in any changes in the near future. Perhaps the next generation of fliers (if there is to be one large enough to keep this sport going...) will be less tradition minded and want to add some excitement and variety to the pattern. I'll most likely be gone long before that happens, if it does.

Later - Bob 

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2022, 11:44:26 AM »
I haven't done the stick figure drawings and don't intend to but couldn't your stance in the reverse wingover produce a wrap?  It wasn't till I got older that I stopped following the plane and assumed the current "correct" stance.  My wingovers were better when I was "following" the plane.  Now the "three wraps" has been around since I was a kid.  You just did three, don't ask why.  Did you ever just set your handle down after a flight then when it was your turn you cranked up and ran out your lines only to find a single wrap still there?  No time to think about it, especially if you are on a timer.  One of life's mysteries.  I have had more than one plane that landed better WITH the wraps.

Ken
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USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2022, 01:37:29 PM »
Hi Bill:

As it stands now we have three twists in our lines (assuming that we started with "clean" lines in respect to twists or winds). The inside Triangles are not followed by outside Triangles. so there are two twists in the lines right there. The Vertical eight begins with a complete inside loop (and for the life of me I don't know why... We don't start the very next maneuver - the Hourglass - with an inside Triangle...) that is not cancelled by a complete outside loop at the maneuver's end, so there's another twist. I just now realized that there should be four twists at the end of the pattern because the old way of doing the Clover started with a complete inside loop that was not cancelled by a complete outside loop. I'm missing something here, so please someone enlighten me as to where that fourth "twist" went. You will see most fliers do three outsides at the end of the pattern just to take any extra friction out of the lines to allow for a smooth approach and landing.

Brett: I'm not tweaking Derek. In fact, we had a very productive and most friendly phone conversation this morning. And in that conversation we brainstormed a couple of new ideas that we intend to try at local meets in our areas. Derek and I understand each other's sense of humor and we enjoy the back and forth.

I fully realize that none of this talk about adding new maneuvers to the pattern will result in any changes in the near future. Perhaps the next generation of fliers (if there is to be one large enough to keep this sport going...) will be less tradition minded and want to add some excitement and variety to the pattern. I'll most likely be gone long before that happens, if it does.

Later - Bob

Maybe I am missing something, but how does the hourglass put a twist in the lines?  There is no "complete" (360 degree) inside or outside portion.

Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2022, 02:04:05 PM »
I haven't done the stick figure drawings and don't intend to but couldn't your stance in the reverse wingover produce a wrap?  It wasn't till I got older that I stopped following the plane and assumed the current "correct" stance.  My wingovers were better when I was "following" the plane.  Now the "three wraps" has been around since I was a kid.  You just did three, don't ask why.  Did you ever just set your handle down after a flight then when it was your turn you cranked up and ran out your lines only to find a single wrap still there?  No time to think about it, especially if you are on a timer.  One of life's mysteries.  I have had more than one plane that landed better WITH the wraps.

Ken

Yes, Ken, your stance on the reverse wingover can produce an outside twist in the lines.  If you keep your body stationary (do not rotate it) you are really doing one big outside loop, right?

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2022, 04:46:03 PM »
Maybe I am missing something, but how does the hourglass put a twist in the lines?  There is no "complete" (360 degree) inside or outside portion.

Read it again, Jim. I was referring to the Vertical Eight and then asking a tongue in cheek rhetorical question about why we don't start the Hourglass with a complete inside triangle if we start the Vertical Eight with a complete loop. It's that loop that puts in a twist, not the Hourglass. That parenthetical phrase I put in there might be the reason you read it wrong. So, here is that paragraph again without the extra phrase.

The Vertical eight begins with a complete inside loop that is not cancelled by a complete outside loop at the maneuver's end, so there's another twist.


Later - Bob

Offline Craig Beswick

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2022, 05:57:54 PM »
Is the FAI, eventually, going to the entry from level flight?
Their 2022 rules say entry is, "Pilots Choice".

Thanks
Craig

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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2022, 06:13:01 PM »
Yes, Ken, your stance on the reverse wingover can produce an outside twist in the lines.  If you keep your body stationary (do not rotate it) you are really doing one big outside loop, right?
You have just solved the mystery of the extra wrap.  So from now on I will do only 2 outsides at the end and marvel how I don't have to fumble with the handle anymore with the timer running on my next flight!   But seriously, can you really feel the difference between two and three?

Ken
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Offline Trostle

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2022, 07:00:46 PM »

(Clip)
--- I suspect that it [the clover leaf rule change] most likely came from one busy-body who likes to quibble about things like what the correct altitude for level flight is.

(Clip)


For the record:  "one busy-body"  =  Keith Trostle

Also for the record:  I do not think that I ever "quibbled" about the "correct altitude for level flight".

Regarding the four leaf clover - let's go back a few years.

In the late 50's, George Aldrich essentially created the pattern that we have since flown.  In that pattern he wrote the rule for the four leaf clover.  As far as we know, he estimated the loops would have a diameter of something smaller that the 45o loops and elevations defined for the rest of the pattern.    (The FAI adopted our AMA pattern into their rules around 1960.)  I am not sure what diameter George chose for the diameters of the four loops in the clover.  The '72 rule book shows the entry to be at 45o and the tops of the two top loops were to be at "3-7 feet below the 90o point over the flyer's head."  The diameter of those loops were not defined at that time.  This description remained in effect until the 78-79 rule book where the entry point was to be at the 38o elevation and the tops of the two top loops were to be "3.9 feet from the vertical plane through the circle center".  This description was essentially interpreted by pilots to mean the loops were to have a diameter of 38o.  With 38o diameter loops, the tops of the two top loops could not possibly get close the that "3.9 feet from the vertical plane through the circle center".  Instead, the four leaf clover was essentially flown in front of the pilots face where the tops of the two top loops did not come close to the "vertical plane through the circle center" as specified at that time.  The Clover essentially appeared as two sets of 38o loops side-by-side, each with each set having one loop on top of the other.  (In my experience, many pilots, even good experienced pilots, still fly their four leaf clover too small to this day.)

This description of the clover with the 38o entry point remained in effect until about 2004.  I was not a member of the Contest Board at that time.  However, I knew that the entry and the 38o diameter for the four loops of the clover could not fill the half hemisphere as described by the rule book where the tops of the two top loops were to be tangent to the "vertical plane through the circle center" (as defined at that time) coupled with the requirement all the loops were to be round and tangent to each other.  I asked Pete Soule to look at the description of the four leaf clover and define what the diameter of those loops should be and what the entry level of the maneuver should be.  Pete Soule is an aerospace engineer in Southern California that I have had the privilege to know and to have met with him regularly at that time.  He prepared a report in July, 2004 that determined the size of the loops if they were to be tangent to each other and tangent to the 4-6 feet normal flight level altitude as well as tangent to the vertical plane through the center of the circle.  Those loops were to be 42o in diameter and the entry level was to be at the 42o constant elevation given the manner on how the maneuver was to be initiated at that time.

Based on the Soule calculations, a proposal was initiated at that time and accepted by the Contest Board that defined the clover with 42o diameter loops, that they were to all be tangent to each other, that the bottoms were to be tangent to the 4-6 foot altitude, that the top two loops were to be tangent to the vertical plane through the center of the circle and that the center of the maneuver was to be a constant 42o elevation.  The proposal was adopted at that time (around 2005 or 2006) and has remained essentially unchanged until this year.

(A few years later, the FAI changed their rules which essentially adopted our AMA rules change made to our four leaf clover.)

It was after the FAI adopted our change to the clover that Keith Renecle of South Africa generated his 3-dimensional simulations of what the whole pattern looked like on the hemisphere where our pattern is flown.  It quickly became apparent that something was wrong with the description of the clover.  The real problem was the specification that the center of the maneuver was defined by the constant 42o elevation.  With this constant elevation, either the loops could not be round or they could not all be tangent to each other and still meet the loops' tangency requirements at the top and bottom of the maneuver.  Over the years, there was considerable discussion in Europe on this dichotomy.   Those discussions eventually led the FAI to change their description of the clover several years ago which eliminated the constant 42o elevation through the center of the circle.

Soule later modified his study to show that the path through the center of the maneuver could not be at a constant 42o elevation but would be on the great circle path on a plane at 45o through the center of the circle and that the tangent points between the top and bottom loops would be at the 42o elevation, just as shown in the Renecle simulation.

I generated a proposal to the Contest Board about 3 years ago to initiate the change so that the maneuver could be flown as described.  That initial basic proposal was withdrawn because it had errors.  A revised proposal was submitted more than a year ago and was posted on the AMA web site for most of last year.  This proposal was the subject of many comments on this Stunt Hangar forum for several years.  This change eliminates the constant 42o elevation through the center of the circle which made it impossible to fly the maneuver as it was then described.  With the "upright" and "inverted" flight paths through the center of the maneuver, all of the tangency and round loop requirements can be met.  The upright and inverted flight paths through the center of the maneuver are no longer required to be at a constant elevation but rather they are actually on a great circle path on a plane that is at 45o from the center of the circle.  These are great circle paths, just as are the vertical paths through the center of the circle.  Rather than writing that 45o elevated plane into the rule book, the wording explains that the paths be upright and inverted through the center of the circle and does not even suggest that those paths are to be at a constant elevation.  This proposal was approved last Winter at the close of the last rule change cycle and is now in the 2022-2023 rule book.

The new FAI rule allows the entry to be either from normal level flight or at the "center" of the maneuver.  We did not allow for this option because to properly maintain the tangency requirement, the model cannot be in level flight at the initiation of the maneuver for the option to start the maneuver at the "center" of the maneuver.  Instead, it would need to be on a path on that 45o plane through the center of the circle.  There was also some discussion by a few board members on how the entry should be defined.  One option was to have the start from the normal flight level with a sharp turn (as if putting a stem on the maneuver).  Instead, it was decided to put the judging start and stop points to be at the 45o elevation which also happens to be crossover point for the vertical and inverted flight paths through the center of the circle which is also the very center of the clover.  The initial turn to a vertical flight path is not defined by the new rule book.  The way the rule is written, the pilot has a choice as to how to establish the vertical path at the start of the maneuver.  In addition, the new rule also allows the pilot to recover from the maneuver before flying through the top of the circle directly into the wind when there is a severe wind. 

Another way to explain the need to change the rule is that until this change, the prior rule that required all loops to be round, that they all be tangent to each other, that the bottom two loops be tangent to the normal level flight path, that the top two loops be tangent to the vertical plane through the center of the circle, AND that the horizontal flight path through the center of the circle was to be a constant altitude (albeit the earlier 45o, then the 38o or the more recent 42o), the maneuver could not be flown.  In other words, it was impossible to fly a perfect maneuver because it was impossible to do as the description was flawed.  I do not think a maneuver description should be so faulty that it would be impossible to perform.  The real problem with any of the previous attempts to define the four leaf clover was the requirement for a constant elevation flight path through the middle of the maneuver.  Or, it would be possible to leave the constant elevation requirement in, but then eliminate the requirements that the loops be round and the same size.  If that choice were to have been made, the maneuver would no longer be symmetrical.

One more thing.  The previous description for the clover required one 360o loop and three 270o loops.  Now, the clover appears as four 270o loops which, in my conservative unbiased opinion, gives a more symmetrical appearance.

Note to Derek:  This proposal was on the AMA website for over two years.  There has been discussion on this matter on this Stunt Hangar for longer than that.  Also, for the record, the final vote on this proposal was completed in September of last year, before you became a member of the Contest Board.  The vote among the 11 Board members was 10 for, 1 against the proposal.

(One note about Pete Soule.  He is/was well known in the Team Race community and was on the US F2C team several times.  He wrote the "Round and Round" control line column for Model Airplane News for several years.  He has written or co-authored several technical papers regarding control line airplanes.  He is a genuine rocket scientist.)

Keith Trostle
Chairman
AMA Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board






« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 10:04:36 AM by Trostle »

Offline dave siegler

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Re: My thoughts on the New Clover
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2022, 09:56:42 AM »
So I am putting together a newsletter article for my club, not looking for a controversy. 

Is there a way to see the old rule proposal changes for research?  I can only see the latest ones.
 

Dave Siegler
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