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Author Topic: My perfect kit!  (Read 3635 times)

steven yampolsky

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My perfect kit!
« on: June 08, 2012, 09:46:02 AM »
I would like to start a discussion of what a perfect kit should be. Before I list my wish list, I would like to give you some of my background:

I am a relatively new arrival on the stunt scene. I've been flying as a kid but I would not call that kind of flying "stunt". I decided to learn pattern in March of 2003 so that's my "stunt" birthday. I moved all the way from beginner to expert class and won contests in each class. Over the years I have had an opportunity to build models from kits AND from scratch.

I own/built contemporary style kits produced by Dare Designs, Brodak, RSM and Sir Walter Umland. The kits are all great but ALL lacked one thing or another. By contemporary I mean that they are all using modern kit format(laser cut, prebent hardware, good control systems if included, CAD drawn plans, etc). I have also found them all lacking some elements so I would like to list what I would consider "Modern Complete kit":

1) Laser cut everything. ribs, formers, weight boxes, adjustment hatches. Most importantly, kits should include plywood jig parts. UHP kits had it right!
2) Mold everything that can be molded: top, bottom blocks, leading edges, parts of cowl, etc. The days of carving top and bottom block are over! Top and bottom blocks should be molded. Kits should come with lasercut plywood formers that can be glued onto a straight piece of plywood, space between them filled with pink foam from Home Depot, foam shaped and wood molded over the buck. I don't expect the kit to include the buck, pink foam or moulded parts, just the plywood formers and balsa sheets to make the part.
3) Speaking of getting rid of carving blocks of wood. Kits should come with CF wheelpants, wingtips and engine cowls.
4) If design calls for fuse mounted LG, include CF landing gear. If using wire wing gear, the landing gear wire should come bre-bent.
5) Speaking of landing gear, let's stop the old hardwood block approach for wing mounted landing gear. They are heavy and useless. Keyed lucky boxes are so much lighter and easier to work with and they allow for easy LG removal. Lucky box parts should be lasercut.
6) Quality of kit wood has improved tremendously. Most kits come with super light wood and therein lies a problem. If a design calls for solid sheet flaps or elevators, the wood for those components should be stronger. Soft flaps twist a LOT. The basic premise, the kit should include appropriate type and density wood for each part.
7) Fuselage formers need to be stiff and NOT unidirectional. Most kits come with fuse formers out of a single sheet of balsa. Balsa is strong in only one direction: along the grain. They break easily if any kind of force is applied from another direction. To make it stiffer, the formers come solid of with very small lighning holse which can contribute to control pushrod rubbing on formers. A better way is to use plywood and cut out large lightning holes. I found that a 1/8 plywood(not light ply, the real stuff) former with cut out holes to 1/8 wall width will always come the same or lighter than equivalent balsa former while having 10x better stiffness.
8) Bob Hunt has it right: we should be using molded leading edges. I've molded leading edges on both built up and foam wings and leading edge consistency is amazing!
9) Hardware. The kit should include all hardware(wheels,screws,prebent wires, etc). If a kit is of a modern design, chances are, the designer used proper control geometry. If so, the kit should include full control system that uses CF tubes with inserts, adjustable neutral and elevator slider. If the kit is of a classic design, I would still prefer the kit included control hardware with modern geometry or at least point to a place where one can order the set specific to the kit. In other words, I want to call some place and ask for control systems for kit X.

What are your "wishes"?

Offline RandySmith

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2012, 10:25:27 AM »
and what are you willing to pay for this kit?
You have listed a very expensive to make kit
Randy

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2012, 10:26:57 AM »
Yea, it would certainly be expensive. With all that, I imagine you'd be looking at a 500 dollar bill or more.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2012, 10:42:15 AM »
What are your "wishes"?

My perfect kit:

A pile of creamy white light balsa, a smaller pile of tan strong balsa (C-grain, please), some dead-flat plywood sheets, several lengths of clean, shiny music wire of various sizes, two maple sticks, and a full size, rolled plan.

Better yet, all that but instead of a plan, a big blank sheet of paper and a pencil.
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Offline billbyles

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2012, 11:31:19 AM »
I would like to start a discussion of what a perfect kit should be. Before I list my wish list, I would like to give you some of my background:

I am a relatively new arrival on the stunt scene. I've been flying as a kid but I would not call that kind of flying "stunt". I decided to learn pattern in March of 2003 so that's my "stunt" birthday. I moved all the way from beginner to expert class and won contests in each class. Over the years I have had an opportunity to build models from kits AND from scratch.

I own/built contemporary style kits produced by Dare Designs, Brodak, RSM and Sir Walter Umland. The kits are all great but ALL lacked one thing or another. By contemporary I mean that they are all using modern kit format(laser cut, prebent hardware, good control systems if included, CAD drawn plans, etc). I have also found them all lacking some elements so I would like to list what I would consider "Modern Complete kit":

1) Laser cut everything. ribs, formers, weight boxes, adjustment hatches. Most importantly, kits should include plywood jig parts. UHP kits had it right!
2) Mold everything that can be molded: top, bottom blocks, leading edges, parts of cowl, etc. The days of carving top and bottom block are over! Top and bottom blocks should be molded. Kits should come with lasercut plywood formers that can be glued onto a straight piece of plywood, space between them filled with pink foam from Home Depot, foam shaped and wood molded over the buck. I don't expect the kit to include the buck, pink foam or moulded parts, just the plywood formers and balsa sheets to make the part.
3) Speaking of getting rid of carving blocks of wood. Kits should come with CF wheelpants, wingtips and engine cowls.
4) If design calls for fuse mounted LG, include CF landing gear. If using wire wing gear, the landing gear wire should come bre-bent.
5) Speaking of landing gear, let's stop the old hardwood block approach for wing mounted landing gear. They are heavy and useless. Keyed lucky boxes are so much lighter and easier to work with and they allow for easy LG removal. Lucky box parts should be lasercut.
6) Quality of kit wood has improved tremendously. Most kits come with super light wood and therein lies a problem. If a design calls for solid sheet flaps or elevators, the wood for those components should be stronger. Soft flaps twist a LOT. The basic premise, the kit should include appropriate type and density wood for each part.
7) Fuselage formers need to be stiff and NOT unidirectional. Most kits come with fuse formers out of a single sheet of balsa. Balsa is strong in only one direction: along the grain. They break easily if any kind of force is applied from another direction. To make it stiffer, the formers come solid of with very small lighning holse which can contribute to control pushrod rubbing on formers. A better way is to use plywood and cut out large lightning holes. I found that a 1/8 plywood(not light ply, the real stuff) former with cut out holes to 1/8 wall width will always come the same or lighter than equivalent balsa former while having 10x better stiffness.
8) Bob Hunt has it right: we should be using molded leading edges. I've molded leading edges on both built up and foam wings and leading edge consistency is amazing!
9) Hardware. The kit should include all hardware(wheels,screws,prebent wires, etc). If a kit is of a modern design, chances are, the designer used proper control geometry. If so, the kit should include full control system that uses CF tubes with inserts, adjustable neutral and elevator slider. If the kit is of a classic design, I would still prefer the kit included control hardware with modern geometry or at least point to a place where one can order the set specific to the kit. In other words, I want to call some place and ask for control systems for kit X.

What are your "wishes"?

Well, since your list indicates that you want the kit manufacturer to do everything for you then you should add to your list that the manufacturer should also send someone to your shop to build the airplane for you.
Bill Byles
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2012, 12:09:38 PM »
My perfect "kit" is a blank piece of drafting paper and a pencil.  That way, I get to select my own wood, my own ideas about stunt design, and my own favorite methods of construction.  The only drawback:  sometimes I get it wrong, and the plane doesn't fly well.  That's Life!

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Offline Bill Little

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2012, 12:13:13 PM »
I believe all that I would change to the kits currently available is to make sure the correct wood is used in areas like the stab/elev. and flaps.  Hardware, if provided, should be what we have come to expect: ball links, adjustable, etc..  All the parts are already laser cut, so there are no problems there.  Oh, yeah, I would add jig pieces like for the fuselage where needed.

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Dwayne

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2012, 12:57:53 PM »
My perfect kit:

A pile of creamy white light balsa, a smaller pile of tan strong balsa (C-grain, please), some dead-flat plywood sheets, several lengths of clean, shiny music wire of various sizes, two maple sticks, and a full size, rolled plan.

Better yet, all that but instead of a plan, a big blank sheet of paper and a pencil.

Sing it brother... y1 #^

Offline Dave Denison

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2012, 01:18:46 PM »
Well, since Christmas is coming early this year....  We have, in the posts above two very different concepts of "the Kit". Having worked within Orline Models in the 80's, doing just about every aspect of production.  Steven's "kit" in my opinion would not be viable to produce, by a cottage comp. or by the Chinese.  Would I like having that kit....YES (cost aside).

  Today we have so much diversification in the market to chose from....but each of us has a very particular idea of what we want that kit to be. My shop is set up so I can go from drawing plans to a complete scratch build, not everyone can to that.  We are soooo fortunate to have Lazer supplied parts and partial kits, allowing quick and easy building.

  Sad that the Japanese are not doing the quality semi- built kits they did so well in the 80's.   Walter and Eric and a few others are giving all of us the chance to craft very fine planes.        It can only get better.

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2012, 01:54:53 PM »
Well, all of my "kits" start life as a pile of balsa, some hardware, some various exotic materials and a 36"x54" piece of blank velum.
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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2012, 02:55:45 PM »
I buy the same "kits" Randy P. does, but they don't include the velum.  It's more exciting and rewarding to me that way. <=
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steven yampolsky

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2012, 03:18:37 PM »
and what are you willing to pay for this kit?
You have listed a very expensive to make kit
Randy


With exception of CF bits, I fail to see how any of my other "wishes" increase kit costs. Even with CF, one should be able to get a set of LG and wheelpants about $50(Brodak sells Vector 40 wheelpants for $15 retail)

steven yampolsky

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2012, 03:22:51 PM »
Well, since your list indicates that you want the kit manufacturer to do everything for you then you should add to your list that the manufacturer should also send someone to your shop to build the airplane for you.

Scratch builders need not participate in this discussion. They do not appreciate the value of a real kit. I scratch build about half of my airplanes but I'm keeping my scratch build experiences out of it.


steven yampolsky

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2012, 03:29:43 PM »
Well, since Christmas is coming early this year....  We have, in the posts above two very different concepts of "the Kit". Having worked within Orline Models in the 80's, doing just about every aspect of production.  Steven's "kit" in my opinion would not be viable to produce, by a cottage comp. or by the Chinese.  Would I like having that kit....YES (cost aside).

I don't think that what I "wished" for is so far removed from current crop of kits. If you were to take a look at the new kits coming from RSM, Brodak and especially Walter Umland, you might be surprised to find majority of my items are pretty much all there. Mr. Umland manages to produce premium kits for a hefty price(~$200) which includes pretty much everything I mentioned. Considering that Walter's kit sell out VERY quickly, I would venture a statement that a my dream kit is a financially viable possibility.

Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2012, 03:51:40 PM »
From the modern kits I've built or have seen they are light years ahead of the vintage kits. Laser cutting has been a God send to kit builders but... It is NOT without faults. They usally lie with the CAD file not being proof-read or checked for accuracy against the plans and vice-versa. On the Brodak Corsair Bellcrank is spelled BELLCKANCK not only on the plans but also the CAD file for the laser cut part - Trivial, but easily corrected had it been edited first.
Some kits have quality issues with the wood itself. Sport planes don't need contest grade wood, but premium kits you expect it.
The wood in Walt Umland's kit of his RM Imperial is excellent.
I do like the hardware Brodak supplies as it comes pre-packaged off the shelf, ready to install, not all mixed up in an unsorted bag.
In today's world I think short kits of premium stunters would sell better than full kits. Most of you competitors have a stash of contest wood and hardware anyway.
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Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2012, 04:02:14 PM »
You have a list of unrealistic expectations. Do you think that any cottage kit maker is going to do any prefabricating and expect to make anything for it. Heaven help the guy if he had a runaway success and had to quit his job just to get out a hundred kits. 90% of the modellers I know, for a variety of reasons, are tighter then a bulls butt in a blizzard. Most accessories are personnel to the individual and most in a kit are never used. Even on high end stuff there are preferences too. The pros don't buy kits and most average modeller do not spring for high end kits. That said I agree with you that Walt Umland probably makes some of the finest kits available but perfection or the persuit of it is not cheap. I can assume that most of his output can be considered limited edition kits and owned by a select few that appreciate high quality.
If you feel that your ideal of a perfect kit should be available I'd surely buy one from you but I don't want to pay over $250/300 for it and it had better be perfect. And even more important it should be available within 30 days of announcing it's availability. Then it really would be perfect.
Dennis

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2012, 04:51:48 PM »
Talk to Tom Morris. He might do this. Get on the waiting list. Probably a year or two wait.

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2012, 05:43:36 PM »
Yea, it would certainly be expensive. With all that, I imagine you'd be looking at a 500 dollar bill or more.

At least Randy....and that is conservative

Mike

steven yampolsky

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2012, 06:02:56 PM »
Well, all of my "kits" start life as a pile of balsa, some hardware, some various exotic materials and a 36"x54" piece of blank velum.

You're too advanced. My latest concoction started life as a chicken scratch on a 8x11. all it had was dimensions and arms. the rest was free hand from memory. That said, my next build is RSM's Derringer. This is one beautiful design and the kit is very complete and nicely done.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2012, 09:12:32 PM »

With exception of CF bits, I fail to see how any of my other "wishes" increase kit costs. Even with CF, one should be able to get a set of LG and wheelpants about $50(Brodak sells Vector 40 wheelpants for $15 retail)


Brodak Vector wheel pants are much cheaper China made glass, I cannot even buy both for 50 dollars, so tell me  where I can buy them cheaper than that
?????

And the list you put in ...does... make the kit much more expensive,
People cannot make kits and sell them at a loss , there has to be a little profit.

Randy

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2012, 09:39:17 PM »
Funny you should ask!
I'm in the process of building what I consider the perfect kit right now.  It's one of Walter Umlands kits for the "Collossus".  
The wood selection is nearly perfect and each piece was obviously selected for it's particular function.  Most unusual is the fact that it is all perfectly straight.
The fuselage top and bottom are blocks that have to be carved and that's the way I prefer it because I like to carve blocks and happen to be very good at it.
This airplane is a large I-Beamer and the parts to build the I-beam were perfectly cut and fit together so well that alignment was almost automatic.
It came with Tom Morris control system including adjustable control horns and ball links and a 4 inch bellcrank with flexible leadouts pre-attached and bushed, exactly the way I do them myself.  The plans are full size and very well done.  It came with an excellent instruction booklet that I actually found very useful, and I usually just throw these things away.  It has prebent landing gear and the workmanship in the bending is astounding compared to what I'm accoustomed to in most kits.
The wheel pants are not Carbon fiber but very nicely lazer cut laminations for balsa carved pants (as they should be).
This was a fairly expensive kit probably in the neighborhood of $250.00 but I confess I bought it several years ago and don't remember the precise cost...just that it was more expensive than the average Bear!!  I'm sure a lot of that extra cost is due to the fact that there is a lot of wood of very high quality and the complete Tom Morris control system (which I always use anyway).
I build about 50-50 from scratch and from kits and this is the best engineered kit I've seen in my very long (60 years) history of building Model Airplanes.
Given the choice of making the rule I would choose this as the guideline for kits to conform to the BOM and my personal choice for the BEST ever!

Randy Cuberly
PS: Engine is a RO Jett 61 RE with muffler.
Randy Cuberly
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Offline builditright

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2012, 12:44:40 AM »

Thank you Randy (and all others) for the kind words,
I hope you're enjoying the build Randy.

Here's the prototype all framed up
Thank you and God Bless
Walter
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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2012, 10:20:47 PM »
I would have to agree on the correct geometry on the horns - really annoying not having it furnished and even more so when it shows it on the plans in the kit and you only get a 90degree horn which is useless.

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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 06:24:54 AM »
I kringe a bit when I read some of these things.  Having done this for nearly 50 years as well as designed and manufactured these things it's pretty easy to spot 'marketing science' which is based more on a sales gimmick than functional reality.  90 degree horns were the norm since forever and still on all my machines today.  Since control travel on any decent airplane is seldom past 12-15 degrees, canting the control arm a few degrees off center makes no noticable difference in the air at the handle.  A moot point- hardly 'useless'.

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 08:50:00 AM »
Scratch builders need not participate in this discussion. They do not appreciate the value of a real kit. I scratch build about half of my airplanes but I'm keeping my scratch build experiences out of it.

"Scratch builders need not participate in this discussion. They do not appreciate the value of a real kit."

"They do not appreciate the value of a real kit."

Steven,

It's probably your "scratch building experience" which taught you the value of a real kit. Or the lack of value.

How much scratch building experience do you have?

Charles
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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 03:48:24 PM »
I kringe a bit when I read some of these things.  Having done this for nearly 50 years as well as designed and manufactured these things it's pretty easy to spot 'marketing science' which is based more on a sales gimmick than functional reality.  90 degree horns were the norm since forever and still on all my machines today.  Since control travel on any decent airplane is seldom past 12-15 degrees, canting the control arm a few degrees off center makes no noticable difference in the air at the handle.  A moot point- hardly 'useless'.

Dave

and you fly at the top level?

People still use fox 35s too - but doesnt mean they are the best thing for the event.   I would like to see how many world champ winning planes have 90 degree horns I would hazard a guess as to probably zero in the last 10 years


« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 06:25:24 PM by Wynn Robins »
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steven yampolsky

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2012, 04:11:09 PM »
It's probably your "scratch building experience" which taught you the value of a real kit. Or the lack of value.

How much scratch building experience do you have?

I find it that devout scratch builders do no have the experiences of new kits and therefore cannot appreciate the difference of experience and enjoyment one gets from building scratch versus kit building.

Indeed, we live in the golden age of kit building. ARF's may have the spotlight(for better or worse) but modern kits, in my opinion are the foundation of the golden age of stunt. Well, kits and purpose built stunt engines such as PA's and RoJett's.

My building experience is such that roughly about half of my plane building "career" was from building scratch. Three out of my last five models were built from scratch so I think I have adequate experience in scratch building.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2012, 04:02:40 PM »
and you fly at the top level?

People still use fox 35s too - but doesnt mean they are the best thing for the event.   I would like to see how many world champ winning planes have 90 degree horns I would hazard a guess as to probably zero in the last 10 years

You sure that's good or bad? http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=19875.0 
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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2012, 04:09:07 PM »
You sure that's good or bad? http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=19875.0 

by 90 degree I mean what you have shown as a Vertical horn.....its 90degrees to the flap horn......
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline RandySmith

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2012, 04:12:23 PM »
and you fly at the top level?

People still use fox 35s too - but doesnt mean they are the best thing for the event.   I would like to see how many world champ winning planes have 90 degree horns I would hazard a guess as to probably zero in the last 10 years




I would love to see how many world winners could tell the difference in the 2 types of controls setup, Fly both and tell you which is which !?

Randy

Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2012, 04:30:28 PM »
I would love to see how many world winners could tell the difference in the 2 types of controls setup, Fly both and tell you which is which !?

Randy

yeah that would be interesting Randy = would be hard to get models exactly the same with only the controls being different though - unless you made it easy to drop in and out..

things develop for reasons......that was my point.
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2012, 04:31:23 PM »
This is an interesting thread.  Beyond the basic question of whether there is a reason for kits to consist of the same sort of stuff they did 60 years ago, I can think of two issues offhand:

1. Most stunt plane kits I've seen (and that's not a whole lot) do not consider the path of the leadouts for the full range of bellcrank movement and leadout positions.  You have to relocate the holes in the ribs, add cutouts in the spar, and add sticks to support the spar and ribs where the mislocated holes and the new holes combine to make cutouts that are too big.  Even without CAD, it's a simple exercise to get this right.  

2. My interest in Classic airplanes is to see the planes I saw in the old days.  Most folks must see Classic as just another contemporary event.  Otherwise, they wouldn't tolerate the inaccuracies in kits and plans purporting to be of old airplanes.  There is something to be said for reproducing, for example, the Nobler that George Aldrich actually flew, rather than the kit Noblers I saw in the days of yore, but many kits and plans represent neither.  
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2012, 04:40:24 PM »
things develop for reasons......that was my point.

My points are, I think:

1. Few develop these things for the right reasons.

2. Few do the analysis to get their control systems to do what they want them to, even if they know what they want them to do.

3. You can vary other control system parameters and get the same effect from 90-degree control horns by either your or my definition.
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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2012, 05:02:40 PM »
fair - I dont have the skills of analytics that you have - obviously.  we neophites can see basic reasoning behind things - I am such a neophite and very basic......but I call a spade a F*n Spade...


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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2012, 06:48:40 PM »
I'll send you the Excel spreadsheet if you want it.  It might tell you if that spade is really a spade. 



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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2012, 08:44:23 PM »
 " there is no spoon"   kind of thing right?
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steven yampolsky

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Re: My perfect kit!
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2012, 06:54:38 AM »
There is something to be said for reproducing, for example, the Nobler that George Aldrich actually flew, rather than the kit Noblers I saw in the days of yore, but many kits and plans represent neither.  

Howard,

You probably already know this: Brodak's Nobler kit is the exact replica of the original model. Here's what Mr. Aldrich wrote about the kit:

"This Brodak Kit is of the Original Nobler. When preparing for the first time Vintage Stunt Championship in 1988, I pulled out the remnants of my Original Model that had crashed due to a broken line. Faced with a 500 piece jigsaw puzzle, I abandoned the idea of restoring it. Cleaning off my drawing table, I sat down and drew the first plans of the Original Model.

When I drew the plan for the M.A.N. Article my '51 Plymouth INTERNATS, winning Original was still in Detroit. When I did the Top Flight Kit Drawing in 1956. This model was stored at my parents home four hundred miles away. The drawing used for the Brodak Kit is an accurate duplicaiton of the Original Nobler to the nearest .001. This version was the best flying model I ever had. I hope it gives you as much pleasure as mine did."


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