Flying Other People's Planes

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

What are customs regarding trading flights in the stunt community?  Seems like there would be significant benefits from feeling how other planes react and getting an opinion of your own rig.

Obviously, the risk is that a crash would happen.  That would be bad in my case, as I have exactly one stunter and have not built anything in 25 years or so.  I do have a couple of other planes in flying condition, but they are old Sterling kits that mush and hinge, not really suitable for competition.

Peter

[Tom Vieira]

this was often discussed when I flew RC helicopters.

if someone was new to the hobby, it was always "nope".  you pretty much gotta buy your way in.  it is what it is.

if it was someone you knew could fly, it was largely up to you.  however, there's always the risk of a dumb thumb, and heli crashes are grotesquely expensive.  the unspoken rule was if you dumped it, you are obligated to buy the part to fix it, or a new kit/radio/engine etc if it was that bad.  depending on what was being flown, that could have easily been a $500 oops even for a smaller ship, and over $3k for larger ones.  but, you always heard stories of guys who would dump it, say "sorry" and just walk away.

personally, I was out flying a friend's TREX500 in Long Island while there on business about 8 years ago.  We were out having fun, and on the 3rd or 4th flight I just completely dumb thumbed it in to the dirt and rolled it up in to a ball.  It was bad....  First thing I did after we did the postmortem was order him a new kit/combo (Align loves their combo packages....!).  I busted the carbon side plates, stripped each collective servo, bent the torque tube tail, cracked the canopy, smoked the rotor blade grips, just about every part that could take damage did, including a now nice and puffy lipo (those were 6s 2200's).  all said and done, about $1k for that.  he was adamant that I didn't need to get him a new one, or buy the parts, but, it was the right thing to do (and BOY OH BOY did my wife at the time flip out when i told her!!!!!).

personally, I wouldn't ask to fly any of the guys I fly with if I could fly their stuff.  But, that's also because I can barely bring my stuff home in one piece from week to week    on the other hand, they are more than welcome to fly any of my stuff!!!!

[Brett Buck]

What are customs regarding trading flights in the stunt community?  Seems like there would be significant benefits from feeling how other planes react and getting an opinion of your own rig.

Obviously, the risk is that a crash would happen.  That would be bad in my case, as I have exactly one stunter and have not built anything in 25 years or so.  I do have a couple of other planes in flying condition, but they are old Sterling kits that mush and hinge, not really suitable for competition.

   It depends. David, Ted, Jim, Phil, and I have flown each other's airplanes many times and I have flown a few of Paul's, like the B-17, at least on of Bobby's airplanes. In those cases, they were usually swapped flights. But, you do it with people you trust. No offense, but I am not going to let you or other relatively low-time pilot, say, fly my good airplane just to see how it flies, because if something does go wrong, we both feel bad about it, you probably worse than me.

   I have occasionally declined to fly other people's airplanes in some circumstances, but only in unusual circumstances, like one airplane I wanted to fly, but didn't want to, the night before the Walker flyoff, which I subsequently won. I did offer to do it afterward, but he wasn't around.

      If you did fly one of the nationally-competitive airplanes, you would find it absurdly easy to fly, you move the controls and it does something very predictable, far better than almost any trainer from the dark ages, and far easier than most other people's regular airplanes.

      Having said all that, I and most of the other alleged "hot-shots" fly other people's airplanes all the time, to give them some idea how close it is to "right", or to assist in getting it "right". We have entire weekend-long events for that several times a year, and it is not at all unusual to do this during a regular flying session. This helps to fix your airplane without having to risk someone's NATs or WC* airplane with a low-time pilot. This is generally a very worthwhile experience for everyone, and I can tell you right now that most people's airplanes range from "difficult" to "impossible", and also that many people are FAR, FAR better pilots than they think they are, because they can manage recognizable maneuvers with their appallingly bad airplanes.

     But, I also have been maintaining and optimizing the Skyray 35/20FP combination just so other people can fly it, literally anyone. And it's better than almost everyone else's airplane, it does nothing unexpected, turns adequately, and it's easily repairable. The next best thing to flying with a bunch of hotshots is to build one yourself, following the directions for construction and engine setup are followed to the letter, it will fly as well as mine does.

     And, I have done the ultimate and crashed someone else's airplane, big hotshot. I offered and actually did rebuild the airplane for the guy, had it back to him two weeks later.

     Brett

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

I think where I was coming from was "can you demonstrate that this plane flies adequately to hang on during overhead eights?"  Ultimately, after about three sessions of six flights each, I'm finding I can remember and complete the pattern.  I think about three more practice sessions before Brodaks would be enough.

[Tim Wescott]

     But, I also have been maintaining and optimizing the Skyray 35/20FP combination just so other people can fly it, literally anyone. And it's better than almost everyone else's airplane, it does nothing unexpected, turns adequately, and it's easily repairable. The next best thing to flying with a bunch of hotshots is to build one yourself, following the directions for construction and engine setup are followed to the letter, it will fly as well as mine does.

In case any beginners are reading -- this helped me a lot, back around eight years ago when I was starting out.  My first two planes were flapped, until Brett and others convinced me to go to the Skyray until I could actually fly a recognizable pattern.  It is way easier to get a flapless plane into trim -- there are fewer things to jigger with, and they don't change the performance as much.  Add in the fact that a Skyray will almost fly off of the building board and you're all set.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

You know, a SkyRay might be a decent build, though I can already fly the full pattern and have had three flapped planes already, all of them built by others.  I get the 19" stab, no rudder offset, big tips part.  About the only aspects of it that are concerning are the LG and the engine.  The single wheel might not be great for my stooge, and the engine requirement is a bit small.  I'd probably use a Fox 35, though I'd rather build a larger profile ship for my ST .46, more in the 550 square inch area.

Peter

[Dane Martin]

   
     But, I also have been maintaining and optimizing the Skyray 35/20FP combination just so other people can fly it, literally anyone. And it's better than almost everyone else's airplane, it does nothing unexpected, turns adequately, and it's easily repairable. The next best thing to flying with a bunch of hotshots is to build one yourself, following the directions for construction and engine setup are followed to the letter, it will fly as well as mine does.

     
     Brett

Peter, as one of the fellows Brett is talking about, I'd highly recommend this combo also. I actually flew his skyray in a contest, and flew MUCH better than my own planes I brought up. It was an eye opener at how controls should feel.
 Also, it is very very difficult to get people to fly your plane until they kinda know you. Maybe they need to trust your building? Not sure, but it took a while before someone would fly my planes.

[Jim Carter]

Peter, as one of the fellows Brett is talking about, I'd highly recommend this combo also. I actually flew his skyray in a contest, and flew MUCH better than my own planes I brought up. It was an eye opener at how controls should feel.
 Also, it is very very difficult to get people to fly your plane until they kinda know you. Maybe they need to trust your building? Not sure, but it took a while before someone would fly my planes.

  Heck, Bro Dane, I'll fly any of your planes .... if ya' ain't lookin'!!   

[Ken Culbertson]

Peter, as one of the fellows Brett is talking about, I'd highly recommend this combo also. I actually flew his skyray in a contest, and flew MUCH better than my own planes I brought up. It was an eye opener at how controls should feel.
 Also, it is very very difficult to get people to fly your plane until they kinda know you. Maybe they need to trust your building? Not sure, but it took a while before someone would fly my planes.

Good points.  It works both ways.  I am extremely nervous flying someone else's plane but not the least bit when they are flying mine.  A mechanical failure is about all that can cause a crash at the level of the group I fly with and that is going to happen regardless of who is at the handle.  I am not the best person in the world at trim and I tend to adapt quickly to a plane's quirks.  This is probably costing me big time.  There is no way you can see your plane in action from inside the circle.  Even video does not give you the same answers that seeing it fly in person does.  So, I am in the "let those you trust" fly your plane now and then camp, especially a new one.  Having said that I would never ask to fly someone elses plane or refuse if asked to do so if I felt the plane was safe.

Ken

[Dave Hull]

Other sports have similar issues when equipment gets loaned or borrowed. I was taught that if you borrowed someone's sailboat and it broke, you had to make it right. If that didn't seem fair--for example if many of the fittings or rigging features were corroded and it was going to let go sooner or later due to deferred maintenance--then don't borrow it at all.

I have crashed several racing planes that someone wanted me to test fly. Most were new, or newly rebuilt and had issues with the controls. The stab came off one plane. The bellcrank jammed on another. We won the NATs with one plane that was so tailheavy from a rebuild that I crashed on my first three attempts to take off.  That said, the etiquette among racers about flying someone else's plane is totally different. It is a team sport, which demands a different mindset.

I have mostly turned down offers to fly sport or stunt planes. Like Brett's Skyray. I did fly Larry Renger's 1/2A stunter and as noted often happens, it was an eye opener. The controls were like flying a large stunter. You steered it thru every turn. No flick and furious. I flew a 60 powered Avanti and that was another interesting experience. And I have flown a few beginner's planes, some of which were truly awful. Like get ready to run because it comes in on you upwind awful. So now I mostly help with bench trim if asked and decline on "sharing a ride."

So my philosophy has become:  If you can't replace it, you can't afford to fly it. Whether that is financially or at the cost of a friendship. If it's the "best plane they ever built," you know you can't afford to pick up their handle....except to carry it onto the circle for them. People shouldn't be offended if you turn down their kind offer. Sometimes you just can't afford it.

Dave

[Dane Martin]

  Heck, Bro Dane, I'll fly any of your planes .... if ya' ain't lookin'!!   

And I yours, my good man. Lol

[Brett Buck]

You know, a SkyRay might be a decent build, though I can already fly the full pattern and have had three flapped planes already, all of them built by others.  I get the 19" stab, no rudder offset, big tips part.  About the only aspects of it that are concerning are the LG and the engine.  The single wheel might not be great for my stooge, and the engine requirement is a bit small.  I'd probably use a Fox 35, though I'd rather build a larger profile ship for my ST .46, more in the 550 square inch area.

Peter

   What does a "19" stab" mean? My stab is exactly the original length and dimensions. My elevator is a little bigger than stock.

   The normal directions assume the use of a two-wheel gear, SIG "Phaser" or equivelent, any "profile" aluminum gear will work.

    The engine (20/25FP-ABC or 25LA) is *the most critical factor of all*. DO NOT, repeat DO NOT, use a Fox 35 or any ancient equivalent, this is far and away the most important factor in the performance. Put a Fox/McCoy/Johnson on it and it flies like any other vintage trainer, i.e. poorly. The engine is far more important than the airplane. I have flown the Skyray 35 extensively with a Fox before I found the 20FP - it's night and day, the performance is vastly better with a 20, since it has more power and uses a more effective propellor.

    Brett


     

[Dan Berry]

My brother. Clayton, told me about flying a guys front-line plane.
Would've been about 12 years ago. They were flying in Clay's front yard circle.
Clay planted it. As in ….. not to be repaired.
I don't remember whose plane it was nor the resolution.
I'm pretty certain that I don't ever want to be in that position.

[Doug Burright]

A FOX 35 is a great engine! Many- countless number of airplanes were designed to fly with a FOX 35, and McCoy 35 engines. A person's inability to properly operate the vintage engines, and make them perform as required to fly the airplanes,  is not the fault of the engine! Many modelers' earliest successes were with FOX 35 and McCoy 35 engines.
I'm certain that these workhorse engines will be viable long after the plating on the inside of foreign- made engines peels off, and the windings in electric motors burn up.
Keep your old engines on your planes- they were made to fly!

[goozgog]

  Sometimes I want another opinion or to watch
the plane from outside the circle and I only let
massively experienced people fly my stuff.
I do it quiet often and I learn a lot.

   If you let someone fly your  "A" airplane
that means you trust them as you trust yourself.
I always try to make it clear that the decision is
mine and so are the consequences.
If they doink the plane , it's all on me.

Cheers! - K.

 

[Matt Colan]

Very few people fly my planes, but I think that’s more of a function of I don’t get to fly very often at this point because of where I live. If/when I do let others fly my planes, like others have said, it’s a matter of trust in them being able to fly the airplane safely. when I’m trimming a new airplane with Joe, or he’s trimming an airplane, we’ll routinely fly each other’s airplanes to see if we can see stuff on the outside of the circle or feel what we’re complaining about at the handle and work together to try to fix the issue. It’s very fun and we always come away learning something about our airplanes and get them flying better. Our planes usually end up trimming out to fly exactly like each other’s airplanes in the end

[Brett Buck]

A FOX 35 is a great engine! Many- countless number of airplanes were designed to fly with a FOX 35, and McCoy 35 engines. A person's inability to properly operate the vintage engines, and make them perform as required to fly the airplanes,  is not the fault of the engine! Many modelers' earliest successes were with FOX 35 and McCoy 35 engines.
I'm certain that these workhorse engines will be viable long after the plating on the inside of foreign- made engines peels off, and the windings in electric motors burn up.
Keep your old engines on your planes- they were made to fly!

  So, when you flew your Skyray 35 back-to-back with a Fox 35, and a 20FP or 25LA, what were your results?

    Brett

[Jim Hoffman]

A few simple guidelines I follow when flying somebody else’s airplane.

•   Before the flight
     o   Discuss the purpose of the flight– often it is a trim thing.
     o   Ask the owner if the plane has any peculiar characteristics you ought to know about.
     o   Ask the owner if there is any flight characteristic they want your opinion on.
     o   Have an understanding of how long the motor will run and it’s shut down characteristics.

•   Fly it conservatively. 
     o   Start with a few lazy eights to get the feel of the turn and tension.
     o   Do not start with a reverse wingover. Consider skipping it altogether.
     o   If you want to see how it corners and turns, fine.  Fly high bottoms.
     o   Hourglass - Fly the overhead corners gently – some planes don’t like hard corners here.
     o   Gentlest landing you can muster.

[Doug Burright]

  So, when you flew your Skyray 35 back-to-back with a Fox 35, and a 20FP or 25LA, what were your results?

    Brett

I am confident that the old engines are plenty adequate for the airplanes, and did not infer that I swapped them out for new engines. Rather, I like seeing and hearing American Muscle on our airplanes. My American engines perform quite well! I'm not trying to begin a quarrel, just stating what I believe the facts are.

[Brett Buck]

I am confident that the old engines are plenty adequate for the airplanes, and did not infer that I swapped them out for new engines. Rather, I like seeing and hearing American Muscle on our airplanes. My American engines perform quite well! I'm not trying to begin a quarrel, just stating what I believe the facts are.

   We are not shooting for "adequate", we are shooting for "superior". Until you have actually tried them both and compared, you really wouldn't know one way or the other.

   I would note that the vast, vast majority of my competition flights in the last 20 years (which have been pretty successful) have been with American-made engines. Not because they are American-made, but because they are superior to the alternatives.  This has *nothing whatsoever* to do with where it comes from.

     Brett

[Doug Burright]

Far out! So, now it might be which engines are readily available to the pilot: first- time, or experienced, and the price that they are willing to pay for one.

 I like my old engines, and they have superior performance for my ability to pilot them. Also, what foreign engines are eligible for Old Time Stunt? And isn't the spirit of OTS to relive the days of yore?

This conversation is going in a curious direction.

[Fredvon4]

Doug

Nostalgia-- or Effective, repeatable, muffled, fun machine?

No one disputes FOX .35 is not an ADEQUATE and truly nostalgic power plant

But if one was suggesting the BEST combination for RingMaster, Twister, Sky Ray, RST, NOBLER....ETC ETC

OS FP 20, ABN, 2030 MUFFLER, 3~4 OZ HAYES TANK, APC 9X4...SETUP EXACT OR close to BBTU...(factory stock!...zero mods)

Nothing in this thread demanded the Fox 35 be defended  IMO

[rob biddle]

 It's an interesting topic, flying other people's planes can be very enlightening to say the least.

 I found when I was learning the pattern that having the more experienced guys fly my current  plane (at the time) helped immensely with sorting basic trim issues and boosted my confidence in the model to the point where I was able to attempt to fly enlarged versions of the manouvres and know that if I was smooth on the handle the plane would make some crude version of the required shape and come back alive. That was a big step forward at the time, allowing me to get through the pattern in a couple of months.

 A few years ago I was offered a flight on a mates vintage (ots) model. When the plane was airborne I quickly realised that I had to ride the up line a  fair bit to maintain level flight.

 I decided to feel the model out with some lazy 8's and as soon as it went inverted it just took off into a wingover that I barely recovered. the fin missed the ground by about two inches on return to inverted flight and I was having to pull the handle back at nearly 30 degrees to hold it flat and level.

 Suffice it to say I eased it back over to upright flight, ran the tank out and hoped there was a spare pair of underwear in the car!

 I discussed it with the owner afterwards and he didn't seem to think that there was anything really wrong with it. Actually he had been reasonably successful with the model in competition.

 I said "Man if you think there's nothing wrong with that, when you get onto a well trimmed plane you're gonna be unbeatable" haha!