Hard point handles

[Duke.Johnson]

My boys and I are looks to upgrade to hardpoint handles.  If you use them, will you post pictures of your handles?  We would like t see a few different handles to choose from.  Thanks ahead of time.

[Tim Wescott]

Here's what I'm using.  This handle means you'll have to have adjustable line clips, which you either buy (from RSM distribution) or you make with an adjustable line clip bender.  The adjustable line clip bender is something you either buy (from Lee's Machine shop), or make (if you're good -- I made one, but it's so rough I would only give it away to someone I didn't like).  You may be able to sweet-talk a friend into loaning you a bender if you don't want to buy or build one.

You want to be able to adjust both line length and spacing.  There are adjustable handles that do this using bolts on the handle, so that you don't need a variety of clips.

There's various handles and kits for sale.  None spring to my mind other than Brodak's, but I'm sure there's more out there.

[Howard Rush]

Mine looks like Tim's, only cruder.  It's a slab of brass with lightening holes, covered by balsa and carved to the shape of the Hot Rock handle we geezers used as kids and got used to.  I made it from scratch in about an hour.

[Duke.Johnson]

Thanks Tim and Howard. 
Tim- I'd like to see your clip bender,  are you going to be at the fun fly Friday?  We plan on coming down.

[Tim Wescott]

Duke, the biggest value to seeing a picture of my line clip bender would be to get an idea of just how ugly one can be and still work.

I just looked it up on Jim Lee's forum here -- it's the "Derek Moran" line clip bender, and he posts a picture:
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=6425.0

I just looked at that picture and made my own on my drill press.  It's way uglier, but it works. 

A good machinist will tell you that to get those pins as shown you need to use reamers and dowel pins -- and to do it in production, they'd be right.  But a size 'X' drill makes a hole that's a bit oversized, and size 'X' K&S music wire is usually a bit oversized, and if you're not too picky about exactly how hard you have to push, I've found that between 1/8" and 3/16", I get a press fit.  And if that doesn't work, there's always epoxy...

[Randy Cuberly]

Duke, the biggest value to seeing a picture of my line clip bender would be to get an idea of just how ugly one can be and still work.

I just looked it up on Jim Lee's forum here -- it's the "Derek Moran" line clip bender, and he posts a picture:
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=6425.0

I just looked at that picture and made my own on my drill press.  It's way uglier, but it works. 

A good machinist will tell you that to get those pins as shown you need to use reamers and dowel pins -- and to do it in production, they'd be right.  But a size 'X' drill makes a hole that's a bit oversized, and size 'X' K&S music wire is usually a bit oversized, and if you're not too picky about exactly how hard you have to push, I've found that between 1/8" and 3/16", I get a press fit.  And if that doesn't work, there's always epoxy...

Tim,
You sound just like an electrical engineer doing mechanical work...

Randy Cuberly

[Randy Cuberly]

Duke,
Do a search on this forum for Fancher Handles, and you'll find out more about hard point handles than you ever wanted to know!   

Randy Cuberly

PS:  Carl Shoup is the guy who makes the kits, but he's sometimes very hard to contact.

[Larry Renger]

There is an alternative, the Exponential Hard Point handle produced by RSM.

A regular handle loses line spacing as it is deflected in maneuvers.  Thus it is more sensitive around neutral, where you need it smooth and loses authority as you need the punch for hard corners.

This new design GAINS line spacing as it is deflected, so it is smooth at neutral and punchy for corners.  You can change the exponential function by lengthening or shortening the arms. Set the deflected spacing to your normal width, and see how smooth your model can be for level flight!

It does need varied length line clips to adjust the model centering.

[Dick Pacini]

Larry, that handle isn't listed on the RSM website under Handles and Lines.   Where did you find it?

[Larry Renger]

Weeeelllll, I sort of designed it.   

If you contact Eric directly, I am sure he can provide price information.  I know he has someone else do his website, and that guy is pretty busy most of the time.  I expect it will make the site listing eventually.

[Dave Denison]

Duke

Shown below are three handles, all very serviceable and easy to fabricate.  Hope this gives you some ideas.

Dave

[Randy Cuberly]

There is an alternative, the Exponential Hard Point handle produced by RSM.

A regular handle loses line spacing as it is deflected in maneuvers.  Thus it is more sensitive around neutral, where you need it smooth and loses authority as you need the punch for hard corners.

This new design GAINS line spacing as it is deflected, so it is smooth at neutral and punchy for corners.  You can change the exponential function by lengthening or shortening the arms. Set the deflected spacing to your normal width, and see how smooth your model can be for level flight!

It does need varied length line clips to adjust the model centering.

Very interesting...looks like a very clever design Larry.
I tried a couple of exponential function bellcranks back in the 1980's but could never get used to the different feel...at least not for stunt.  I tried one in a combat ship and it seemed much more successful there.  At the time I thought it was probably because combat simply has less precise requirements, but was never sure.  I gave up fiddeling with the things because I dismissed it as too much trouble for what seemed to be very little return.
I used one of the Fancher round belcranks and liked the feel of that a lot but never felt confident that the leadouts would reliably stay in the groove on the crank without using guides that increased the control drag and resulted in the controls not being as free as wanted, hence gave up on that too. 

This handle pictured has four screws at the front...can I assume that those provide adjustment of the exponential range or do they adjust sensitivity?

Randy Cuberly

[Steve Helmick]

I found a picture of my TED handles (my choice) that I put together from kits from Carl Schoup. I got rid of a lot of balsa (i.e., sanded a lot away) and gave them two coats of Zap Finishing Epoxy, sanded between. The grip tape is fishing rod stuff from BPS, but tennis racquet handle tape works. The handles came out at 60g. each, just over 2 oz. I like 'um a lot, because I could carve them to fit my hand. There is a Large and a Small size kit. $25 each or 5 kits for $100, last I heard.

Also posting a picture of the official Derek Moran clip making jig from Jim Lee Machine (see vendor's section). You should need a range from stock (Sullivan or Brodak) to about + 1/4". Don't waste effort and wire to make larger ones than that.

Be sure to bind your leadouts and lines with copper wire, NO crimping. I like to put heat shrink tubing over the bindings, but often forget. Some guys color code their lines and leadouts...but IMO, that's likely to lead to reversed line hookup due to relying on color codes too much. Making one line about 3" longer than the other (leadouts also) is a much better plan. A simple stick with a couple of finish nails is a good jig to repeat the offset consistently.  Steve 

[Brett Buck]

I tried a couple of exponential function bellcranks back in the 1980's but could never get used to the different feel...at least not for stunt. 

   One thing I have learned over the years is that "soft around neutral" is the last thing you want in a stunt plane. And by "learned", I mean "got beaten into my thick skull by watching Paul Walker". At least on full-sized stunt planes. Too soft and you can never start and stop the corners well enough. You can make them track just fine without slowing the controls down, but you have to be able to generate most of the deflection you need right away, as quickly as possible.

   In some cases, like 1/2As and very short-coupled planes you might need it, but in general it will make everything look nice and smooth but will be very difficult to generate enough pop in and out of the corners.

     Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

  One thing I have learned over the years is that "soft around neutral" is the last thing you want in a stunt plane. And by "learned", I mean "got beaten into my thick skull by watching Paul Walker". At least on full-sized stunt planes. Too soft and you can never start and stop the corners well enough. You can make them track just fine without slowing the controls down, but you have to be able to generate most of the deflection you need right away, as quickly as possible.

   In some cases, like 1/2As and very short-coupled planes you might need it, but in general it will make everything look nice and smooth but will be very difficult to generate enough pop in and out of the corners.

     Brett

Yeah, I totally agree Brett.  In my post I suppose that's what I really meant by saying it was not precise enough for stunt...I'm just a lot lazier in typing than you   y1LL~

Randy Cuberly

[Brett Buck]

Yeah, I totally agree Brett.  In my post I suppose that's what I really meant by saying it was not precise enough for stunt...I'm just a lot lazier in typing than you   y1LL~

Randy Cuberly

  BTW, the corollary is that many times, "hops" in and out of corners are caused by the controls being too slow (either just around neutral or just generally too slow) and/or excessively forward CGs. The problem is that it takes too much effort and hand motion to get a decent corner radius, which makes it take too long, so you overshoot. Sadly, a common response to this is for the pilot to pile on more nose weight or slow the controls down!  This is not the only cause of hops but it's a very common one.

   Brett

[RandySmith]

 BTW, the corollary is that many times, "hops" in and out of corners are caused by the controls being too slow (either just around neutral or just generally too slow) and/or excessively forward CGs. The problem is that it takes too much effort and hand motion to get a decent corner radius, which makes it take too long, so you overshoot. Sadly, a common response to this is for the pilot to pile on more nose weight or slow the controls down!  This is not the only cause of hops but it's a very common one.

   Brett

Great Point Brett, and the above is also the cause of many 2 inch pull outs...or  even lower  sadly, Especially when the wind picks up

Randy

[tom brightbill]

Duke, you can also get them from Tom Morris.  (Looks like Tim's.)

[Larry Renger]

Well, all I can say is that the exponential function has been wonderful for me, and my scores have beene improving since using it. I guess it is a function of getting used to it. The first impression is that the model isn't responsive, but you just have to learn to work with the different feel.

There have been a couple of models where I had to reduce the expo by shortening the links, but these were 1/2 a models with too small bellcranks. You need to learn how to tune in the total system, bellcrank size, pushrod link location on bellcrank and horn, line spacing at the handle, expo level and CG for a particular model design.

With all that said, there is no question why the "pros" stick with specific "numbers". To get a Nats competitive new configuration would take a lifetime of testing and experimentation. ( George Aldrich and Bob Palmer managed it, but times were simpler then. The bar is WAY higher now).

On the other hand I love getting good performance out of wierd designs, and beating the conventional boys (in advanced, not a prayer to do that in expert).

As far as quickly starting maneuvers is concerned, I judge at most of our contests, and even the Expert flyers suck at hitting the original entry point in consecutive maneuvers. Usually 5 to 10 foot error for the second and third loop bottoms. And none of them are flying an exponential handle, so that isn't the problem.

Brett, why don't you come on down to the Knights' Joust and show it how it is to be done? Love to have you show up! Bring the whole NW crew with you and wipe us out. We'd love to suffer. Some BBQ  tri tip just might be your real reward.  (Ask Bob Hunt) I have learned at the foot of the master, Warren Walker, zen master of the grill.

[Joseph Lijoi]

So you guys are telling me that I cannot use the overhang adjustmet to adjust for small line length differences, like 1/8th of an inch?  If I can do this what is the limit.   

[Larry Renger]

In answer to Randy c's question, the front screws are stops to prevent the links from traveling inward, the rear screws are the pivots.

Question for the assembled multitude is: Why is it that I can do lovely square corners if the expo function is supposedly "too slow" to start maneuvers?

My answer is that you need to fly an expo handle for a while before you get the hang of it. When you do, you'll love it.  Of course if you have spent a lifetime getting to be a Nats level expert, why would you screw up
your game changeing over? For the less experienced pilot, it could be worth making the change early on.

I have let (arm twisted) a couple of expert flyers try the handle, and it is clear that the extra slow neutral response (read that as SMOOTH) reduced their confidence that the model would kick into high gear when needed. It really does have a different feel.

One said the model was noseheavy (it isn't), the other wouldn't trust it to try squares, despite seeing me do them just fine.

So, what is the advantage? I score better takeoff, landing and inverted scores and smoother round maneuvers while retaining the ability to do good, hard corners. For me, expo is what I need.

[Steve Helmick]

So you guys are telling me that I cannot use the overhang adjustmet to adjust for small line length differences, like 1/8th of an inch?  If I can do this what is the limit.   

Some folks do adjust inside/outside response with overhang at the handle, but it seems more logical to fix whatever is wrong with the airplane. Correcting, vs. masking the problem.  Steve

[Joseph Lijoi]

Some folks do adjust inside/outside response with overhang at the handle, but it seems more logical to fix whatever is wrong with the airplane. Correcting, vs. masking the problem.  Steve

Sorry i wasn't talking about trimming, I was talking about gettig a neutral adjustment.  Like a line clip 1mm (040in) inch shorter to make up for line length difference seems a bit extreme.  Enlighten me.

[Larry Renger]

In an ideal world, a line between the attachment holes on a handle is exactly perpendicular to the lines. How far off this can be tolerated is a very individual thing. I find that I need to be very picky about it.

Note that some prefer their hand not to be exactly vertical,but they should still use a handle that has the lines attached as above, and compensate with handle shape. The wire type handles often have the capability for adjusting the cross-bar. The TED handle ca do this with the sliding metal pieces, but you should still use varied line links to level the plane.

[Brett Buck]

In answer to Randy c's question, the front screws are stops to prevent the links from traveling inward, the rear screws are the pivots.

Question for the assembled multitude is: Why is it that I can do lovely square corners if the expo function is supposedly "too slow" to start maneuvers?

   "Lovely" and "accurate enough to compete with David and Paul" are two different things. Recall that at the entry and exit of every corner, and the intersection of the round loops, and even the round loop entry and exit ALL require infinite acceleration to perform.

     Brett

[Howard Rush]

I think that the handle is a much better place for the exponential function than the bellcrank-- less line spring effect.

[Reptoid]

  "Lovely" and "accurate enough to compete with David and Paul" are two different things. Recall that at the entry and exit of every corner, and the intersection of the round loops, and even the round loop entry and exit ALL require infinite acceleration to perform.

     Brett

Interesting statement coming from an engineer. In my 40+ years in engineering (EE, Mechanical, and Systems) I learned several lessons in wisdom from engineers far more talented than I.
If you like being correct more often than incorrect:
Do not use the term "Never"
Do not use the term "always"
Do not assume "your way is the only way"
and In the real world with gravity and atmosphere, there is no such thing as "infinite acceleration"

Note also that with the above handle design, you could: Set the spacing at neutral (instead of max deflection) to the same as your current handle which would then give you the same feel around neutral but more aggressive movement during deflection, i.e. closer to infinite

I also think 99% of the people on Stunthanger are probably not losing sleep stressing about how they're going to beat Paul or David

[Larry Renger]

BTW, my 500+ flight (my all time best) at the Golden state Championships was using the expo handle. Oh yes, the judges were Dave Fitzgerald and Bob Whitely. Good enough?

[Tim Wescott]

Duke, here's another handle I have in my collection of plans.  I'm not sure I'd use it, but since this thread seems to have drifted off of your original subject I thought I'd contribute something.

You may also just try doing a search when you have some spare time -- there's a lot of different handle designs out there.  As long as it holds lines apart and you can grab it, someone's gone and made a handle out of it (I've flown 1/2-A with string tied to a stick, in a pinch).

[Brett Buck]

Interesting statement coming from an engineer. In my 40+ years in engineering (EE, Mechanical, and Systems) I learned several lessons in wisdom from engineers far more talented than I.
If you like being correct more often than incorrect:
Do not use the term "Never"
Do not use the term "always"
Do not assume "your way is the only way"

   I didn't say any of that. I offer my not inconsiderable competition experience for what it is worth. If someone doesn't agree or doesn't want to do it, no skin off my nose. I certainly am concerned about the recent tendency to dismiss the vast amount of information available in favor of folklore  and "let's randomly try things and hope we hit on something because thinking is for ivory-tower eggheads" because it seems like turning back the clock, but I am well aware that people many times prefer this to something that is actually helpful.

and In the real world with gravity and atmosphere, there is no such thing as "infinite acceleration"

Note also that with the above handle design, you could: Set the spacing at neutral (instead of max deflection) to the same as your current handle which would then give you the same feel around neutral but more aggressive movement during deflection, i.e. closer to infinite

I also think 99% of the people on Stunthanger are probably not losing sleep stressing about how they're going to beat Paul or David

  What is going on around here lately?  Bob's other post declared open season, I guess.

     I am well aware that you cannot have infinite acceleration. However, that it what is required. For example, when going from level flight to a round loop, you have to change from a straight line to a curve of constant radius in a time of *zero*. Those who best approximate that without screwing anything else up tend to win a lot of contests, which is presumably still the goal. If one wants to improve their results, then it stands to reason that one might want to, first, be aware of that, and second, know how other people with more success have solved it.

    One of the big improvements in accuracy over the recent years (two decades or so) is that people have recognized things like this and designed and trimmed accordingly. It was the topic of conversation over the weekend, as a matter of fact. Do as you wish, of course.

     Brett

[Tim Wescott]

Here.  I've expounded (bloviated, perhaps) upon Don and Brett's comments in a thread that has nothing to do with a newbie finding a good handle:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=31942.0

[Duke.Johnson]

Here.  I've expounded (bloviated, perhaps) upon Don and Brett's comments in a thread that has nothing to do with a newbie finding a good handle:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=31942.0

Thanks Tim, I have enough info for me.  I've been watching for something new throught he debates.  Hope to see you Friday.

[Balsa Butcher]

No one has mentioned the Kaz Minato handle - available in hard point or cable. IMHO the Cadillac (or Lexus for those under 50) of handles currently available. Check with Randy Smith for availability, pricing and sizes. 

[Steve Helmick]

Sorry i wasn't talking about trimming, I was talking about gettig a neutral adjustment.  Like a line clip 1mm (040in) inch shorter to make up for line length difference seems a bit extreme.  Enlighten me.

Most the guys I know lock their TED handles up solid at minimum overhang (whatever clears their fingers), and uses clips to adjust for line length or leadout length errors...one clip, at the handle. All the rest of the clips are stock items. 

Another post here said something about clips in 1mm (.03937") lengths. This probably refers to "Hello Kitty" clips from Randy Aero. The Derek Moran clip making fixture makes 'em in 1/16" increments, tho if you wanted to modify it a little, it would be easy to make them in smaller increments, or if you wanted to metricate, you could certainly make your own from a 1mm pitch metric bolt/nut.

Somebody brought that up in another thread awhile back, but D. Dirt suggested that they'd never be able to tell the difference, and I expect he's probably correct. But I can tell you that a 1/16" adjustment in handle neutral made a huge improvement in the takeoffs of my SV-11. Pete and Mike suggested adjusting neutral long before I actually made the change....my bad.    Steve

[Howard Rush]

Mr. Lee put a pin on the other side of the nut in mine, so I have 1/32" increments. 

[Derek Barry]

No one has mentioned the Kaz Minato handle - available in hard point or cable. IMHO the Cadillac (or Lexus for those under 50) of handles currently available. Check with Randy Smith for availability, pricing and sizes. 

Yep, I use both of Kaz's handles, the hard point on braided lines and the cable handle on solids. They are the best handles I have ever used.

Derek

[Joseph Lijoi]

Mr. Lee put a pin on the other side of the nut in mine, so I have 1/32" increments. 

Yikes!