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Author Topic: Movable tailplane? That is the question.  (Read 7855 times)

Offline John Carrodus

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Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« on: October 18, 2021, 03:31:26 PM »
I'm building a hybrid Spitfire semi scale stunt CL model for an LA 40. The wing is from an old Austrailian ( slightly oval) Calamity Jane with fuz and tail designed by me. I have just finished reading the material on Stunthanger re tailplane leading edges, trailing edges, flat/airfoiled/etc etc. My head aches and I'm more confused than ever. It seems to me there are so many apples being compared to pears, oranges, onions and turnips - so many moving parts and variables. Size of tail, shape of tail, section of tail, moment, elevator % size, range of movement, leverage/loading etc etc etc!!!

It occurs to me ? has anyone ever tried a complete moving tailplane? If so, does it work?
Just asking?
 Another idea that might be worth exploring is a swept leading edge to the elevator. This may introduce another sequential force that messes with CG amongst other things - for better or worse?



Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2021, 04:04:55 PM »
Short answer;

Yes.

They aren't used today by the top fliers and I guessing that they are to sensitive.... or to hard to get adjusted.

We use them on RC gliders a lot. Easy to trim because you have a TX to work with while flying.

Good luck, Jerry

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2021, 04:07:24 PM »
  We have been there, done that and moved on. There was one classic design which the names and designer escapes me, who tried it and eventually used the wing and fuselage for another design that he published. You may find some fairly recent discussions but you may have to use the correct t5erm in a search like "all flying tail" or " stabilator"  something similar.  A full flying tail was used a lot of R/C sailplanes but we are talking about a whole 'nother matter and elevators that didn't need to move very much but were more effective it trimming pitch attituded during the glide.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2021, 04:33:55 PM »
I'm building a hybrid Spitfire semi scale stunt CL model for an LA 40. The wing is from an old Austrailian ( slightly oval) Calamity Jane with fuz and tail designed by me. I have just finished reading the material on Stunthanger re tailplane leading edges, trailing edges, flat/airfoiled/etc etc. My head aches and I'm more confused than ever. It seems to me there are so many apples being compared to pears, oranges, onions and turnips - so many moving parts and variables. Size of tail, shape of tail, section of tail, moment, elevator % size, range of movement, leverage/loading etc etc etc!!!

It occurs to me ? has anyone ever tried a complete moving tailplane? If so, does it work?
Just asking?
 Another idea that might be worth exploring is a swept leading edge to the elevator. This may introduce another sequential force that messes with CG amongst other things - for better or worse?
There was a plane back in the 60's, I think it was called Pegasus, that had a flying stab.  I think the reason that they aren't popular is that they require a twin boom (supported on both sides) to work properly.  I have built a Jet style patterned after the F-14 with a 3" wide aft fuselage and a flying stab.  Turned really tight but it was hard to fly.  Hunted everywhere, even in loops.  Never tried one again. 

Ken
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2021, 04:50:58 PM »
Quote
has anyone ever tried a complete moving tailplane?   

Yes, they were tried years ago.  Found to be a bit tricky.

However, Tom McClain built an F-104 with a removable "flying stab" and after some mods and playing around, got it to work pretty well.  Maybe he'll see this and chime in.  I'm not aware of any others in the modern era that built flying stab stunt ships that worked.

Offline Trostle

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2021, 05:11:58 PM »

 has anyone ever tried a complete moving tailplane? If so, does it work?


It has been tried.  The consensus is that the all flying stabilizer offers no advantage for our control line stunt models.  Those that have tried it, myself included albeit many years ago, is that the model does not "groove".  Yes, they are used in RC sailplanes and full scale aviation.  Their use in RC is for some other reason that what is needed for a CL stunt ship.  For full scale aviation, they offer a smaller tail plane for less drag which offers more fuel efficiency.  Drag is not a paramount design factor for our CL stunt ships.

If the all flying stabilizers offered any benefit for CL stunt, perceived or real, everyone would be using them, including the top flyers.

This subject comes up every couple of years on any one of these forums with the same conclusion.

Keith

Offline Tom McClain

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2021, 05:42:25 PM »
Yes, they were tried years ago.  Found to be a bit tricky.

However, Tom McClain built an F-104 with a removable "flying stab" and after some mods and playing around, got it to work pretty well.  Maybe he'll see this and chime in.  I'm not aware of any others in the modern era that built flying stab stunt ships that worked.

Yes I tried a full flying tail on my profile semiscale NF-104 Red Baron stunt ship and got it to work but it had flutter tendencies so I went back with a standard fixed horizontal tail with elevator.

The trick is to find the proper hinge point to prevent the surface from locking up or down, center of pressure or aerodynamic center is the key, and the right hinge line for ease of surface movement.  Then flutter is another worry that may be cured with bob weights like regular aircraft use.  Rod Pharis used a full flying tail with his I-Beamer back in the early 60s.. Bob Hunt wrote about Rod's stunt ship in his series on I-beam ships in Flying Models.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 09:18:19 AM by Tom McClain »
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Offline John Carrodus

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2021, 11:38:36 PM »
Many thanks guys.
I appreciate your time and effort in replying.
Sounds like a duckfart idea, but hey I had to ask.
I might try one on a small model with dampers to stop flutter.
I will not tell any jokes but as Will Rogers said, "Observe the Government and merely report the facts!"
I will report bck.
Regards to all
John.

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2021, 07:38:43 PM »
Many thanks guys.
I appreciate your time and effort in replying.
Sounds like a duckfart idea, but hey I had to ask.
I might try one on a small model with dampers to stop flutter.
I will not tell any jokes but as Will Rogers said, "Observe the Government and merely report the facts!"
I will report bck.
Regards to all
John.


John, If you do this, put the pivot at 25% (back from the LE, just like a wing) and weight the
LE (with a wire or something) to balance horizontally without the push rod attached. This should keep it from any flutter. But don't blame me if it does flutter! LOL!

Good luck, Jerry
[PS: I'd move the stab a 1/4" up and down at the TE for a 40-60 size ship. Even that might be to much...

Offline Tom McClain

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2021, 08:40:11 PM »
Here is a picture of my full flying horizontal stabilizer on my semi-scale Lockheed NF-104 Red Baron Starfighter.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 05:08:22 PM by Tom McClain »
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2021, 09:56:47 PM »
The trouble with a full flying surface it seems to have been learned over many times is keeping it trimmed and light control force gradients. They tend to have little to no hinge moment which leads to difficulty for the meat servo trying to drive the vehicle. The full size aircraft use either hydraulic controls or antiservo tabs to provide trim and control feedback. Without an antiservo tab in the control system, the flying stab will just feather wherever whilly nilly relying on the meat servo for positioning. Whithout any tactile feedback the meat servo will have difficulty damping the system leading to periodic velocity vector oscillations (hunting), sometimes divergent. RC planes have a servo that closes loop on position and doesn't really need the tactile feedback to maintain the position and consequently trim. Aerodynamically they make sense even for the CL stunt models as they have fewer troubles with airflow separation in turns and such.

Mechanically an antiservo tab would be fairly easy to install and make work. For an example, look at one of the Piper Cherokee or Comanche aircraft. I'd venture a guess that goes something like this, had the guys experimenting with flying stabs incorporated a tab they'd have had a different result. Seems to me that a company here was bringing in a model using a flying stab and I asked the question of how they were managing to get get good control feedback. I never got a good answer for that. It may be that the operators just learned to deal with the light feel. Flaps do help with that aspect but I never got far in that conversation as I'm not certain the design had flaps.

Ultimately I wouldn't carte blanche dismiss the option of using a full flying stab. Besides incorporating an anti-servo tab system a good hinge would be in order. This is a place where judicial application of carbon fiber finds its way into my zone of reasonable consideration. The PA models I have flown all have fairly high control force gradients, primarily from the flaps and my intuition tells me that having a very low hinge moment at the tail in combination with high hinge moment at the flaps is not good as it is the more dominant pitch driver. Reducing the hinge moment on the flaps isn't a technically difficult thing to do and a few models I've seen are working in that direction and my next model will be working in that direction as well.
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2021, 10:14:29 PM »
The Zenith aircraft use a full flying tail for control and they use a high friction bearing to maintain "trim". It's actually a very clever device as it is a plastic bearing the nose wheel axel rides in and is tapered in a way that tends to center the pedals and therefore the tail. The Zenith tail is actually very small as well but has surprisingly good control authority. It also has very good cross wind capability because the full flying surface doesn't have a fixed portion which "catches the wind" in a cross wind. Being a full flying surface it can pivot and provide better lift in that circumstance.


 
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2021, 11:14:02 AM »
I wonder just what benefit would be derived from a flying stab.  The one I built was uncontrollable in level flight and had flutter in wind.  I will confess that the control loads were lighter which I attribute to the effect of using change in AOA vs the change in airfoil between the two types.  Logic says that both should perform exactly the same in level flight but they don't.  Mark, is there a reason most commercial and military aircraft have them but most aerobatic types don't?  The possibility of tighter corners is all I see but, how much tighter do we need before the pattern starts to look like a video game.

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2021, 12:18:11 PM »
I wonder just what benefit would be derived from a flying stab.  The one I built was uncontrollable in level flight and had flutter in wind. 

     That probably means the pivot was in the wrong place - too far aft. The pivot has to be ahead of the Cp, which for all practical purposes is no more than 25% of the chord. Absolutely everyone started out with that idea, they universally had the same problem. The tail has to be stable on its own. Everyone who got it to "work" went down the same path - start out way too aft,  have profound stability and "flutter" problems, then did something to move the CP back of the pivot forward, and then reduce the travel to maybe 3:1 with the flap.

    I am not much on "if no one is using it, it must be useless" type reasoning, but, *many, many* people have experimented with flying stabs, some "working" but the very minimal improvement in the drag seems to be greatly overcome by the numerous problems with structure, weight, and complexity. This has been discussed on and off since the early 70's and here multiple times - I don't want to belabor it by just rerunning the previous threads on the topic. But a bit of research might be time well spent.

     Brett

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2021, 01:05:25 PM »
This has been normal for combat airplanes for 60 years.  Just hinge it at the leading edge and call it a stabilator....I think it could work in stunt but I can’t see any purpose other than doing something different- and yes it’s been done with wing flaps- aka Guillowtine.

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Offline John Carrodus

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2021, 04:56:26 PM »
Mark Wood and Tom McLain
I'm now more interested and inspired to give it a crack.
I think there are multiple opportunities to experiment with, tail layouts and couplings of forces to augment stability devises, eg flaps with leading tips to assist leverage at the tail etc etc.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2021, 05:34:36 PM »
     That probably means the pivot was in the wrong place - too far aft. The pivot has to be ahead of the Cp, which for all practical purposes is no more than 25% of the chord. Absolutely everyone started out with that idea, they universally had the same problem. The tail has to be stable on its own. Everyone who got it to "work" went down the same path - start out way too aft,  have profound stability and "flutter" problems, then did something to move the CP back of the pivot forward, and then reduce the travel to maybe 3:1 with the flap.

    I am not much on "if no one is using it, it must be useless" type reasoning, but, *many, many* people have experimented with flying stabs, some "working" but the very minimal improvement in the drag seems to be greatly overcome by the numerous problems with structure, weight, and complexity. This has been discussed on and off since the early 70's and here multiple times - I don't want to belabor it by just rerunning the previous threads on the topic. But a bit of research might be time well spent.

     Brett
It was well in front of the CP when I gave up on the idea.  I used them exclusively on sailplanes but they don't have to lock out of a corner at 5' either! LL~

Ken
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2021, 05:39:16 PM »
This has been normal for combat airplanes for 60 years.  Just hinge it at the leading edge and call it a stabilator....I think it could work in stunt but I can’t see any purpose other than doing something different- and yes it’s been done with wing flaps- aka Guillowtine.

Dave
If I remember right the Pegasus had it hinged at the LE but it was twin boom so that was a no brainer.  I have wondered why combat doesn't move it back about a 1/2" to ease the handle pressure a bit.  It has been a long time since I flew combat but I do remember how hard they pulled.

Ken
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2021, 07:28:30 PM »
I'd think the counter balance would work against the pilot quickly changing direction at high speed, making a competing feedback to return to neutral and making neutral far more sensitive and undefined at the handle.  That is probably why those who have tried this on a stunt plane aren't thrilled with it-displaying a hunting feel.  As the combat setup goes,  the stab will always seek level due the the airstream.  A decent combat ship will lay dead level without the pilot looking at the airplane.  It seems natural to think a stabilator on a stunt ship will snap back to level once a turn is negotiated.  The size of the airplane and stabilator doesn't seem to feed back enough pressure to be a bother.  A stunter might, but then it's flying at half the airspeed.  Properly locating the CG might be more important with a stabilator working in conjunction with wing flaps.  I guess building a profile to experiment with wouldn't be too hard if someone wanted to learn how this works.  Finding a good solid bushing from which to hinge a stabilator would be the first place to start unless you built a twin boomer.  Perhaps a well-mounted set of wheel collars on the sides would do....

Dave
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Offline Tom McClain

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2021, 08:00:33 PM »
Some more pictures of my profile Darryl Grenamyer RB-104 Starfighter. It had a removable horizontal tail to test the full flying tail.  I used 4 Dubro hinges to provide strength and flexibility.  I beta tested by building a rig to mount out the passenger window of my car to find the right hinge line to provide proper restoration stability. First test had the hinge line back at the aerodynamic center and it locked in both deflection directions. Moved the hinge line forward to 30% of the geometric root chord. It worked well but had some minor flutter. 25% of the geometric root chord is probably better for the stunt Starfighter.

It would be enlightening to see where Lockheed put the hinge on the real Starfighter.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 07:05:28 AM by Tom McClain »
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2021, 01:05:28 AM »
Mark, is there a reason most commercial and military aircraft have them but most aerobatic types don't? 

Supersonic airplanes usually have them.   Commercial jets usually don't: they have stabilizers that move slowly with a jackscrew for trim. They have normal elevators.  The L-1011 had a stabilator with an antibalance tab that worked to give a little extra up control, as I remember.  I did something similar for the airplane that eventually became the 787.  It was a stabilator with an antibalance tab that was faired to the stab except for full up or full down.  It was fun working out a mechanism to do that.  The chief engineer was skeptical (sceptical, actually.  He was an Englishman.) of electronics, so he wanted a mechanical solution.  It gave a smaller tail, hence less drag, but wasn't worth the bother. 

Brett and Dave have the solution for stunt stabilators: keep the hinge line way forward of 1/4 of the distance from the LE of the mean aerodynamic chord.  The farther forward, the more hinge moment, but I wouldn't worry too much about hinge moment.  You gotta go out of your way to make a stunt plane control surface flutter, although I've done it.  Just have a reasonably stiff pushrod, tall control horns to minimize wiggle, no big weights at the back of the control surface, and the aforementioned forward hinge location.  Damping can avoid flutter, but it could make your stunt plane hard to fly. 

First test had the hinge line back at the aerodynamic center and it locked in both deflection directions. Moved the hinge line forward to 30%. It worked well but had some minor flutter. 25% is probably better.

You mean the geometric center?  The aerodynamic center of a subsonic wing or tail is approximately 25% of the mean aerodynamic chord.  Thereby hangs a tale, and it is pertinent to control line combat.  People intuit that the aerodynamic center of stuff they strap onto the top of their vehicles is in the middle of the stuff: sheets of plywood, mattresses, etc.  This results not usually in flutter, but another aeroelastic phenomenon called static divergence.  How does this relate to combat?  The late Dick Salter was a combat flier who worked for the Washington state transportation department.  He had a standing order with the guys who cleaned the freeways for sheets of foam that had succumbed to static divergence.  He cut combat planes from the free foam.   
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2021, 01:09:36 AM »
I have wondered why combat doesn't move it back about a 1/2" to ease the handle pressure a bit. 

We did.  I copied that idea from Phil Cartier.  It worked dandy. 
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Offline Tom McClain

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2021, 07:18:58 AM »
Howard, you are correct. I corrected my post to indicate geometric root chord.
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2021, 08:42:48 AM »
Mark Wood and Tom McLain
I'm now more interested and inspired to give it a crack.
I think there are multiple opportunities to experiment with, tail layouts and couplings of forces to augment stability devises, eg flaps with leading tips to assist leverage at the tail etc etc.

This is the arena of Howard to provide the most help with. Having said that a couple pieces need to be correctly understood which I see lacking in most folks discussions. The primary one is the mean aerodynamic center of the surface. I see a lot of individuals using the average of two chords and calling it the MAC which isn't quite correct. There are lots of places and techniques to find the MAC which can be easily found on the internet. The easiest design methodology would be to simply taper the surface around the 1/4 chord line. That is also the location of where a hinge would be located. Any hinge used for this has to be as slop free as possible.

An anti servo tab or servo tab can be made in a way that its response is tunable. My 4/4 Laser used a servo tab to help reduce hinge moment and stick force gradient. The servo tab moves opposite of the control surface so as the surface moves up the tab moves downward creating a lifting force. The control horn for it had several holes for the linkage attachment and thereby creating a variable amount of "help". The same could be used for an all flying tailplane but with the linkage arranged to move with the surface motion in order to create an opposing lift force. The stick (handle moment) force gradient in this arrangement is a function of the size of the tab and its ratio of movement to the control surface movement. The larger the surface or greater the movement the greater the stick force gradient is.

Flutter in control systems come from a number of sources. Number one is that the surface behaves like a spring mass system and will oscillate based on the weight of the mass and stiffness of the spring. The general cure for this is to balance the surface on it's hinge line. Flutter occurs when the weight of the surface is aft of the hinge line and a displacement causes a restoring force from the lift created by the surface which tries to return the surface. If the control linkage is not stiff enough to prevent this the surface returns and the energy causes it to pass neutral where it continues until the lift force arrests the motion. That stopping force is now in the opposite direction causing the repeat to occur. Moving the CG of the surface to the hinge line removes the driving mass and stops the cycle. Moving the mass in front of the hinge line creates a naturally damping static system.

For a full flying system on a model this may or may not be important, as Howard says, IF the control system is stiff enough which often is for models. However, if'n it were me and I'm "that geek", I'd balance the surface. It shouldn't take much lead in the LE to balance a light control.

I'm on the fence regarding the value of using a full flying stab. I have no doubt that anyone so inclined to put forth the effort with the above knowledge can make a successful model. The primary advantage is the reduction of things like airflow separation around the forward stabilizer section and resulting departure of linear lift slope of the control. I do know that the large deflections we use drive the models in to that realm. If I keep talking and thinking about it, I may talk myself in to it after a couple more models.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2021, 09:01:43 AM »
The easiest design methodology would be to simply taper the surface around the 1/4 chord line. That is also the location of where a hinge would be located.

if you want the plane to "hunt".

The servo tab moves opposite of the control surface so as the surface moves up the tab moves downward creating a lifting force.

Like this?
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2021, 09:14:29 AM »
Like this?
Any chance you have a shot of how "Like this" is rigged?  I can see how a "Rabe" type horn attached to the fuselage might work.  I am starting to believe that "If it has been tried", it was by you! LL~

Ken
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2021, 09:50:00 AM »
  Mark, is there a reason most commercial and military aircraft have them but most aerobatic types don't?  The possibility of tighter corners is all I see but, how much tighter do we need before the pattern starts to look like a video game.

Ken

Sorry in advance about being so long winded but this answer is complex.

Howard answered the first question I'll attempt to "answer" the second to which I preface with I don't know. My first response is regarding the loads and history. Loads on aerobatic airplanes can get quite high and design criteria reach 20 G's. This means the a flying stab would have to survive a fairly high load given the Part 23 doublet design parameter for controls. That's a pretty substantial requirement which would drive a fairly heavy attachment. This is why you see lots of these airplanes with wire braced tails. A cantilevered design can be heavy without a thick airfoil. That's a structural consideration.

In terms of performance of maneuvers is another and let's limit this to airplanes like Lasers and Extra types not MiGs and F22's as these have different criteria in the maneuver envelopes. The typical aerobatic airplane flies a number of maneuvers such as combinations of loops, roll and gyroscopic maneuvers. For loops a full flying stab would work out just fine. When we consider the gyroscopic set of maneuvers like, spins, snap rolls and Lamchevaks the full flying stab would work for some but not all.

Lets think about the main benefit of a using a full flying stab in turning flight "circular airflow". When we think of turning flight in the coeficientized realm of CA the think of the zero lift line and its relationship with the oncoming airflow. For a stabilizer elevator combination there is a finite limit as to how much the ZLL can change while there is no such limit for a full flying stab. This in turn means that turning radius is limited by the maximum lift, resulting from the increased AOA of the ZLL in a maneuver. A full flying stabilizer, on the hand, can move to wherever it needs to maintain a lower AOA. Consider the Cobra maneuver made famous by the Sukoi SU 26 where the stabilizer flying the entire time and the airplane is controllable.

For the performer the situation is different. The gyroscopic maneuvers rely on a couple of elements including stalled surfaces and propeller precession. In the spin the wing stalls and a yawing motion creates a differential AOA as result of the vertical velocity component and differential horizontal component which in turn results in an increase in drag on the slower moving wing and the faster moving wing. This feeds back causing the rotation to increase and the snip develops. Contrary to average opinion rudder input is not required to cause an airplane to spin. I demonstrate this to all of my CFI candidates taking my spin course.  Depending on direction of motion and direction of the propeller rotation the precession of the propeller may aggravate or damp this tendency.

Flat spins occur when a number factors come in to play such as mass distribution, propeller precession and the amount of blanketing of the tail or AOA of the tail resulting from the rate of rotation. It's intuitive that there is a point in the rotation rate that will drive the AOA of the tail past stall. At that point the rotation increases significantly. Flat spins may or may not be recoverable. That's why we wear parachutes.

So, all of that is the foundation of knowledge needed to discuss the other gyroscopic maneuver the aerobatic show planes do, the Lamchevak and its cousins. The Lamchevak is a crazy ride and involves a complex interaction of the propeller and rates of rotation about the pitch roll and yaw axis'. The bottom line is that we drive the airplane in to a position where the precession of the propeller causes a pitch and yaw rate sufficient to stall both the vertical and horizontal stabilizers. Flying the Lamchevak you can actually feel the tail stall as the airplane absolutely take off in its rotation rate. Take notice of how the performances position the maneuver, tehy point it up 30 ish degrees and it tumblers over a ballistic ark.

So, the key to the "advanced" gyroscopic maneuvers is being able to exceed the critical AOA of the horizontal stab. Substituting a flying stab would more than likely, maybe, prevent the onset of increased rotation brought on by the surface stalling. Therefore, my conjecture is, the full flying tail isn't desirable. I could be wrong but it's a tough analysis to perform and not likely worth the level of effort to build and test as the current fleet of cool @ss airplanes are doing a good job of tumbling across the sky.
 
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2021, 09:50:35 AM »

Like this?

Zackly like that. Very cool.
Life is good AMA 1488
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2021, 10:15:06 AM »
if you want the plane to "hunt".


True, with a 1/4 chord hinge the stab would fly neutral unfixed by controls and have zero hinge moment and stick force gradient. The context, however, is important. In context the discussion is using an anti-servo tab which would provide centering and hinge moment which "should" keep the surface from moving causing hunting.

Case in point, Piper Cherokees don't hunt and have trucklike control forces. They're hinged at 25%.
Life is good AMA 1488
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Offline John Carrodus

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2021, 02:53:00 PM »
Howard
I'd like to back up Ken. What is the mechanics of your antiservo tab on your flaps? More details please ..if your
're prepared to share? Many thanks in advance. ( I guess the purpose on flaps is to reduce the control loads at the handle?) 

Offline Trostle

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2021, 03:41:19 PM »

The servo tab moves opposite of the control surface so as the surface moves up the tab moves downward creating a lifting force.


At first, I did not know what you were talking about when you mentioned servo tabs and anti servo tabs.  Then, Howard showed me the light.  I am familiar with the term "boost tabs" and their use in full scale aviation, light planes to modern jet transports.  (The B-29 used boost tabs to move all of its control surfaces - ailerons, rudder, elevators - no hydraulic or electric boost.)  Here is one application of boost tabs on a flap.  These are placed toward the outboard portion of the flap so that all of the control force to move the flap does not come from the root where the flap horn is buried.

(I apologize for helping to take this off topic.)

Keith


Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2021, 07:43:15 AM »
Around 20 years ago, I built a semi-scale stunt model of my PA-28-151 Cherokee Warrior.
The model would have as many features of the full-scale plane as possible including a dihedral wing with multiple taper, wing root cuffs, throttle control, functioning marker lights, wheel brakes and a full-flying tail (stabilator).
The tail was to pivot on a ¼ inch carbon fiber rod turning in two precision sealed ball bearings. The bearings were mounted in a rolled fiberglass tube attached to the airframe.
Going with a suggestion from Bill Netzeband, I set the pivot point 25% back from the stabilator lead edge.
The plane flew quite well, turned like a combat plane but was too sensitive. Closing the handle spacing to 2 ½ inches solved the sensitivity problem.
HOWEVER, on the occasional instance when the lines became slack, the plane went into a rather wild pitch oscillation, fortunately always correcting itself.
I surmised that the problem might be due to the pivot location so I reduced the stabilator chord from the lead edge such that the pivot was now at approximately 18.75%.
After the modification, the plane became much less sensitive and the oscillation was gone.
Although I won a few trophies in Fun Scale, I really built the plane just for fun. Powered by a SAITO 30, I can throttle it back to idle, do a touch-and-go or use the brakes for a full stop landing.
After approximately 1,100 flights, the engine has never been out of the plane, the valves were adjusted once, (after break-in) and the glow plug has never been changed. 1 1/2 ounces of fuel is sufficient for the pattern.

JUST PLAIN FUN!!!!!

Bob Z.


Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2021, 10:39:25 AM »
The Zenith aircraft use a full flying tail for control and they use a high friction bearing to maintain "trim". It's actually a very clever device as it is a plastic bearing the nose wheel axel rides in and is tapered in a way that tends to center the pedals and therefore the tail. The Zenith tail is actually very small as well but has surprisingly good control authority. It also has very good cross wind capability because the full flying surface doesn't have a fixed portion which "catches the wind" in a cross wind. Being a full flying surface it can pivot and provide better lift in that circumstance.


 

Did you ever fly one?

Although not a PP, I have a bit of stick time on the original CH250.
The rudder controls were basically "don't touch" in flight. Terrible feel on the pedals versus control deflection.
Most guys building them opted for the fin/rudder modification.
MAAC 8177

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2021, 01:26:40 PM »
Did you ever fly one?

Although not a PP, I have a bit of stick time on the original CH250.
The rudder controls were basically "don't touch" in flight. Terrible feel on the pedals versus control deflection.
Most guys building them opted for the fin/rudder modification.

I actually have quite a bit of time in the 601 and have a product that I make for them. It’s a secondary canopy latch. Honestly the pedal feel of the Zenith airplanes are a bit annoying due primarily to the centering block but I got used to it. I have never flown the CH250 but I’ve flown the high wing 701 and 750 planes and the Robin DR250 and 2160 which are other Chris Heinz airplanes. I haven’t had the opportunity to do an A-B test between models with and without the full flying tail however, I’m guessing that the cross performance is measurably different as the flying tail impressed me with its performance in both he 601 and 701/750 models. I know the little flying tail and it’s two small bolts is worthy of nervousness which takes time to resolve. My point was primarily as an example.
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2021, 01:31:36 PM »
At first, I did not know what you were talking about when you mentioned servo tabs and anti servo tabs.  Then, Howard showed me the light.  I am familiar with the term "boost tabs" and their use in full scale aviation, light planes to modern jet transports.  (The B-29 used boost tabs to move all of its control surfaces - ailerons, rudder, elevators - no hydraulic or electric boost.)  Here is one application of boost tabs on a flap.  These are placed toward the outboard portion of the flap so that all of the control force to move the flap does not come from the root where the flap horn is buried.

(I apologize for helping to take this off topic.)

Keith
.

It’’s good to point that out. My use of servo tab is more generic and booster tab is the correct nomenclature. I will promote the notion of thinking how to project the concept and not keeping nomenclature perfect. A servo tab does the actual flying of the surface while the balance tab solely provides centering and control pressure.

I don’t think that is off topic Keith rather it is positive input.
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Offline dale gleason

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2021, 02:51:05 PM »
Here's a pic of the best stabilator stunt plane I ever saw, both in appearance and performance. One of many, many outside-the box  designs by Bill Wilson.

dg

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2021, 10:58:06 AM »
Around 20 years ago, I built a semi-scale stunt model of my PA-28-151 Cherokee Warrior.
The model would have as many features of the full-scale plane as possible including a dihedral wing with multiple taper, wing root cuffs, throttle control, functioning marker lights, wheel brakes and a full-flying tail (stabilator).
The tail was to pivot on a ¼ inch carbon fiber rod turning in two precision sealed ball bearings. The bearings were mounted in a rolled fiberglass tube attached to the airframe.
Going with a suggestion from Bill Netzeband, I set the pivot point 25% back from the stabilator lead edge.
The plane flew quite well, turned like a combat plane but was too sensitive. Closing the handle spacing to 2 ½ inches solved the sensitivity problem.
HOWEVER, on the occasional instance when the lines became slack, the plane went into a rather wild pitch oscillation, fortunately always correcting itself.
I surmised that the problem might be due to the pivot location so I reduced the stabilator chord from the lead edge such that the pivot was now at approximately 18.75%.
After the modification, the plane became much less sensitive and the oscillation was gone.
Although I won a few trophies in Fun Scale, I really built the plane just for fun. Powered by a SAITO 30, I can throttle it back to idle, do a touch-and-go or use the brakes for a full stop landing.
After approximately 1,100 flights, the engine has never been out of the plane, the valves were adjusted once, (after break-in) and the glow plug has never been changed. 1 1/2 ounces of fuel is sufficient for the pattern.

JUST PLAIN FUN!!!!!

Bob Z.

Here's some interesting aspects to understand with all of this. The trajectory of the airplane when the lines are slack are the realm of what is known as stick free stability. Any of the flying tails on a model that is released from the confines of the handle will fly in trail behind the pivot when the pivot is at the surface CP or forward and provide no trim resulting in the trajectory of the airplane going in some random direction. An airplane with an unlinked stabilator will have no stability regardless of hinge point, the only thing moving the hinge point does is change the hinge moment and flutter characteristics. A stabililator hinged and balanced at the CP  generally won't flutter and will have zero hinge moment, not carte blanche but close enough. So, examples of bad behavior are the result of this interaction and why a servo tab of some type is key to real success.

Have a look at Keith's linkage model.  The linkage driving the tab is fixed to the wing and not the surface. The linkage in a stabilator is connected to a point inside the fuselage and is typically adjustable which is how trim is derived. Adjusting the linkage one way or the other will change the AOA the stabilator where it will want to fly and consequently trim the airplane for speed. Full size airplanes have to demonstrate stick free stability which is to say the airplane has to fly with no constraint of the controls by the pilot. This is accomplished on a stabilator by the anti servo tab which is connected to the tab like Keith's model with the exception that the ground for the linkage would be on top of the wing rather than the bottom side opposite to the horn on the surface. The result would be that this would provide hinge moment and centering (trim). Stick free stability.

One of the down sides of a stabilator is it has lots of gain as a control element. A small change in AOA has big impact in the overall pitching moment of the aircraft. This is the "makes the airplane really sensitive" part.  So reduced travel is a part of the requirements. It's intuitive that a stabilizer/ elevator combination has decreasing gain (lift change per degree of control deflection) as the ratio of elevator chord to surface chord decreases. Make the elevator smaller, the less authority it has and less sensitive to control input. This also means that any control system play has a greater impact on the airplane with a stabilator. I don't think a tab would change this aspect much.

The hinge location is of interest and there are a couple reasons stabilators are hinged and balanced at the 25% MAC point. First is flutter and second is control moments. The main driving force of flutter in a surface of any kind including wings is the interaction between the lift, CG and stiffness of the surface. Moving the hinge away from this location creates an increase potential for flutter. 

Think of lift as a spring which has a function F=ky where y is the displacement of the mass which give the spring constant k= F/y.  The frequency of a simple harmonic oscillator is f=1/(2*pi)*sqrt(k/m) in words, the frequency equals the square root of the spring constant divided by the mass divided by 2 times pi.  In the case of a control surface or stabilitor the y displacement is equal to the sine of the AOA times the displacement of the CP from the pivot (hinge line). Since this term is zero when there is no displacement of the CP from the pivot the frequency is zero. Move the CP away from the pivot line, change the hinge point in relation to the MAC, and this becomes non zero increasing the potential for flutter. Of course this is a very simplified example but illustrates why we would want the hinge line of a flying stab at the 25% MAC point. A similar thing happens with displacement of the mass from the hinge line albeit we would have to derive that interaction using the mass moments of inertia which are a more difficult derivation. The end result is we want both the aerodynamic and mass distributions to center around the pivot point in order to reduce the probability of flutter.

There is reason why a model might wish to have the pivot point away from the CP and that is a simple method of creating a control force gradient. Move the hinge forward from the CP and the hinge moment increases. Along with this comes the potential for flutter. As we can see from the above there are two driving elements in flutter and one can be addressed which is the mass distribution. For the example of the surface fluttering when the hinge was moved from 25% MAC to 18% MAC the flutter might have been cured by balancing the surface about the hinge line. That would have been my first step.


Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Trostle

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2021, 11:34:58 AM »

Have a look at Keith's linkage model. 


The boost tabs shown in the pictures are based on an article published some time ago in Model Airplane News.  The title of the article is "Labor-Saving Devices for) Overworked Servos" by Carl Risteen.  It is in a book with the title "Radio Control How To's. Volume 2), published in 1994. The article shows several ways to reduce forces to move control surfaces, including these so-called "boost tabs".  The size of the boost tabs, like for a flap is suggested to be between 4% and 10% of the flap area with the length to be 1/3 to 1/2 the span of the control surface and the chord to be 15 to 25% of the chord of the control surface.

The boost tab shown in the pictures above is aboaut 7% of the flap area.  I do not have enough flight experience with this model to know if they help or not by flying with the things actuated and then flying with them being fixed to the flaps.  At least, I am certain that they do not hurt.

(As a side note, Model Airplane News published several of these "How To" books in the 90's.   They have at least these two "How To" volumes, another on "Building Techniques", another on "Finishing and Detailing" (140 pages each), and two more 65 page volumes of their modeling tips that appeared as one page ideas from their magazine.  You would have to go through years of magazines to gather this material.  All are worthwhile additions to you model library.)

Keith

Offline John Carrodus

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2021, 03:14:58 PM »
Great stuff guys!!
The more I read here the more I realise I know diddly squat about bugger all! Thanks in particular Mark to you head wrapability on the subject! You always put up an enlightening thesis accompanied with the numbers to support what you're on about. Robert I love your Big Yellow model - bold living proof for a fully flying tailplane - with what? How many, 1100 flights? It would be interesting to convert that to KM! Thanks Trostle for going to the trouble to make a working plywood
demo of how the antiservo stuff does it's thing. Very clear. Anyone who thinks this stuff is just a bunch of old farts playing with bricks on a string couldn't be more wrong! (and probably are in many other aspects of their lives-Ha.)
Cheers Guys.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2021, 07:45:04 PM »
Great stuff guys!!


Interesting dialog anyway.
Life is good AMA 1488
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Offline Dave Harmon

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2021, 09:19:02 PM »
Take a look at the BJ Craft stunt model sold by Okie Air Model Products.
This is a precision mfgd model with flying stab.
I have seen it up close on the bench and it is very cleverly done.
i was a bit skeptical about the stab attachment and how the stab mechanicals was designed.
I shouldn't have been wondering about it.

I've never flown this airplane but I have several BJ Craft F3A Pattern airplanes...one with the flying stab.
On the R/C airplanes....the flying stab feels more locked in and in general flys better/precise than conventional stab/elevator setups.
I have about 500 flights on it and the mechanical setup of the flying stab is very simple and strong.
BJ Park is the designer and mfgr of all these models...he is the Korean F3A Champion and is a very clever designer.
I've been flying his designs for at least 10 years now and I'm very satisfied with all of them.

Offline Charles Hofacker

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2021, 09:04:59 PM »
...I have just finished reading the material on Stunthanger re tailplane leading edges, trailing edges, flat/airfoiled/etc etc. My head aches and I'm more confused than ever. It seems to me there are so many apples being compared to pears, oranges, onions and turnips - so many moving parts and variables. Size of tail, shape of tail, section of tail, moment, elevator % size, range of movement, leverage/loading etc etc etc!!!...

Speaking of tail planes I was looking for something to build for an electric motor I have squirreled away and stumbled onto George Aldrich's "Peacemaker".  It looks really good.  Published in "Model Airplane News" April, 1960. I noticed now the plans show a stab/elevator that has sharp leading and trailing edges. Reported by many to be a really good flyer. I'd like to think Mr. Aldrich was way ahead of his time  y1  I'm going to build one with the sharp L.E. and T.E. on the stabilizer/elevator as shown on the plans.  Did any of y'all ever build a Peacemaker with a with a sharp L.E. and T.E. on the stab/elevator? How did it fly?

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2021, 10:06:20 PM »
Speaking of tail planes I was looking for something to build for an electric motor I have squirreled away and stumbled onto George Aldrich's "Peacemaker".  It looks really good.  Published in "Model Airplane News" April, 1960. I noticed now the plans show a stab/elevator that has sharp leading and trailing edges. Reported by many to be a really good flyer. I'd like to think Mr. Aldrich was way ahead of his time  y1  I'm going to build one with the sharp L.E. and T.E. on the stabilizer/elevator as shown on the plans.  Did any of y'all ever build a Peacemaker with a with a sharp L.E. and T.E. on the stab/elevator? How did it fly?
Most of the designs by George Aldrich had "sharp" LE and TE on the stab/elevator, most notable being the Nobler.  I hear it flew well.

Ken
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Online kevin king

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2021, 12:43:11 AM »
Life is too short to try and re invent the wheel. I would go with whats already proven.

Offline Charles Hofacker

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2021, 06:29:35 AM »
Life is too short to try and re invent the wheel. I would go with whats already proven.
But, I do like to learn by doing  :)!

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2021, 08:44:10 AM »
Life is too short to try and re invent the wheel. I would go with whats already proven.

If that were absolute we would still be riding in stone wheel carts pulled by oxen. Some of us live to make a better wheel. That's how Ferrari's happen.
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Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2021, 03:14:59 PM »
If that were absolute we would still be riding in stone wheel carts pulled by oxen. Some of us live to make a better wheel. That's how Ferrari's happen.

Hi. Mark - not sure I understand the Ferrari analogy!

Bob Z.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2021, 04:38:00 PM »
Robert is familiar with the Ferrari.

Sorry, I never answered the request for linkage pictures.  Mine are like Keiths, but maybe with taller control horns.  I settled on holes 1" above the hinge lines.  That makes the tabs stay parallel with the wing.

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Offline John Carrodus

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2021, 12:14:34 PM »
Howard.
Many thanks for your reply /posting piccies. Much appreciated. I notice what looks like some kind if turbulator ?? devices on the fus above and below the flap? Is that to aid airflow around - what I guess tends to get pretty messy when the flaps are working hard. ( Trade secrets will be handled with discretion  LL~)
Kind regards
John

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Movable tailplane? That is the question.
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2021, 01:08:50 PM »
Those are vortex generators. I couldn’t feel any effect from them.  I might try them there again after seeing Mark’s video.
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