Brodak ARC & ARF

[Mike Griffin]

This probably does not come as a surprise, but I just got off the phone with Brodak and I was told when the current supply of ARC and ARF's are gone, that is it. There will be no more.  They have very few left and mostly in electric but with a few glows left.

SIG told me several weeks ago when I talked with them, that Control Line kits would be going away as well.

I do not know of any other suppliers in the United States that will carry Control Line ARC or ARF's.  The prices of these on Ebay is already out of sight so I can just imagine the prices they will be asking for these now. 

CL kits are still available from Brodak and RSM but I am wondering how long this will last.  As long as balsa is still available, one can still build but I wonder how long this will last given the tremendous increase in the price. 

Mike

[doug coursey]

BRODAK AND RSM KITS ARE AVAILABLE BUT HAVE GONE UP ALMOST $100

[Steve Dwyer]

Mike,

Has Brodak decided to phase them out because the call has diminished? Did they say whether their supplier will continue to build for other distributors in and out of the USA? Makes you wonder where the Europeans buy them.

Steve

[Mike Griffin]

Mike,

Has Brodak decided to phase them out because the call has diminished? Did they say whether their supplier will continue to build for other distributors in and out of the USA? Makes you wonder where the Europeans buy them.

Steve

Hi Steve,

I honestly do not know, I did not get that deep into with her but she made it clear that when the present inventory is gone, that was it.  They are all made in China and it pains me anyway when I have to buy something that is made there but right now you do not have much choice when you buy anything.  I am sure China is not going to quit building them and I got the idea that this was a choice made by Brodak.   There are guys in my club that cannot build or do not know how to build and I have personally built and given several models to them for that very reason and ARFs are perfect for folks like that.  The RC market is primarily ARFs and most people I know who fly RC fly ARF's or those foamies. 

I called my balsa supplier today that I have always done business with when I was doing all my kits.  I am set up as a dealer and the wholesale price was almost $500.00 for what I needed for fill in.  I will not and cannot buy it at that price when 3 bags of groceries cost $300.00.  In my house, food comes before hobbies. 

I am very disheartened by what I am seeing and I can no longer justify the cost of staying in the hobby.  My wife and I live on fixed incomes and we had a discussion tonight about the cost of just meeting the necessities. 

I will make do with what I currently have on hand and when that is gone, that will be it.

Sorry Steve, did not mean to get off on a rant.  You guess is as good as mine what the future holds for us in the hobby,

Mike

[Colin McRae]

I had the same conversation with Brodak like a year ago. No more ARC & ARF once their current stock is gone. Because of that I picked up a P40 ARF while they had a few left. (BTW, nice flying model!!)

The real reason is $$ as usual. The models are bult in China and China's cost have increased. That is what Brodak has told me. Brodak would have to sell an ARF for like $400 to make a profit. No one is going to buy a model for that price.

Brodak will still have the same as kits, just not ARC or ARF.

[Brent Williams]

Materials and methods will have to be adapted if you want to keep the price point down. 
Bob Hunt has developed some great, fully competitive ships built with minimal balsa.  "Lost Sheeting" method.
Istvan Travnik builds complete competitive models from blue foam.
Building fun sport models can be accomplished many ways.  It is pretty unrealistic to expect a 20 point, front row ship using these lower cost methods, though.




 

[Dan McEntee]

   Getting quality ARFs and ARCs from China, consistently,  has always been a problem from I remember reading and in talking with people over the last 20 years or more. Even though they were made in China as cheaply as possible, it was still a competitive business in China, and ARF building companies came and went like the wind. I think that is why the SIG Primary Force never had another run and was never revisited because the ARF builder went out of business and SIG couldn't find a company that could match what they had on the first run. It's probably why Top Flite/Great Planes dropped the Tutor II after a short run and didn't do any more Noblers or Flite Streaks once the large first run was gone. John Brodak had mentioned the difficulties in finding and securing reliable ARF builder in the past also. Trips to China aren't cheap nor easy, especially if nothing fruitful comes out of them. And if you haven't been reading the newspapers or watching any news reports, things aren't exactly stable in China and haven't been for the last few years with the pandemic. I can understand why the family would not choose to continue offering them. ARFs and ARCs may have become a thing of the past.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Reptoid]

    So, Are none of you aware of what's been going on in China over the last few years? Do you watch the news at all? There is a very big reason you can't buy any model engine that was made in Hong Kong anymore (Magnum, ASP, GMS, Evolution and others) There were always problems and headaches involved with dealing with China. Just ask anyone who was an importer of Chinese made products. Items made to speck like ARF's/ARC's were even more problematic because of Government policies that don't allow you to communicate directly with the builders. You have to go through an agent (extra$$$) and he/she may or may not have any related knowledge about your product.
    As for Europe, not sure how many ARF/ARC's were sold there recently. Maybe a member from England/Germany/ France/etc. could chime in. A lot of F2B models (ready to finish, ready to paint, ready to fly, and turn key) are made in Ukraine, as are most of the competition engines for F2A, F2B, F2D, F1C, F1J, etc. Some were/are made in Russia but right now there are some shipping receiving issues between here and there.

[Craig Beswick]

Gee Reptoid that was helpful. To what end was your post? Oh, to lecture people about what? Thanks ya flop!

If anyone wants pre made planes they are available from Japan. PM me and I will let you know where. They aren't cheap but if you want a pre made plane they are available and not at Ukraine, Russian or Europen prices!

Like everything in the world, prices have gone up. The fact the US has been shielded from the increases is problematic withing itself. The hobby costs what it does, it is your choice to be involved or not. Simply a matter of moving with the times.

For those of us not in the US, prices have been prohibitive for 3-4 years. I chose to be involved and pay what it costs, others may not. But I'm not sure what attacking people and their choices is all about?

Craig Beswick.

[Perry Rose]

Back in the seventies pre built planes were from Africa, Zimpro models in Zimbabwe, Germany had more than one builder, and Korea's Fun Key  models to name a few. Then China put all out of business. How many remember  models built with hot glue?

[peabody]

Two major issues with ARF/ARCs, as I recall John saying
1) The shipping. Costs are huge and growing, and very unreliable delivery times, unless a further HUGE premium is paid.
2) Large quantities are in the containers, requiring a substantion cash outlay prior to the awful shipping issues.

That said, I wager that a young, financially stable guy could acquire the rights to the Brodak import line very reasonably. I wager that Vector, SV 11, P-40 and Ringmaster ARFs could be viable. An issue that Brodak had was that they were ordered in color choices. I think all white ARFs would solve the color inventory issue and that "trim kits" could be created locally.

The market is far from saturated.

Have fun!

[Scott Richlen]

What is amazing about this is why would anyone want to buy anything from China?  Your money does not go to the worker-slaves to benefit them.  It goes to the CCP and their military.  We are funding an enemy who makes no bones about how they'd desroy us given the chance.  Granted our media likes to dish out "happy talk" 24-7, but it is easy enough to understand what is happening unless you are in denial.

Good grief!  If this were 1940 you'd be complaining about the costs of German imports and hey! don't they have all those special worker-re-education camps where they can make stuff at low cost?  Those socialists, they really know how to get things done!

[Kafin Noe’man]

That said, I wager that a young, financially stable guy could acquire the rights to the Brodak import line very reasonably. I wager that Vector, SV 11, P-40 and Ringmaster ARFs could be viable. An issue that Brodak had was that they were ordered in color choices. I think all white ARFs would solve the color inventory issue and that "trim kits" could be created locally.

The market is far from saturated.

Have fun!

That’s a really good idea. Another thing to consider is making it into 2-part-wing panel so the packaging will be smaller thus the shipping can be more affordable and reasonable for us who live outside of the States.

[Teodorico Terry]

I believe that part of the problem is the price point; many are not willing to pay what it truly costs to have a well built ARF given the small market that C/L represents compared to R/C.  I did buy one of the last T-Rex's offered by Brodak knowing full well that it would need some work.  The first step was to remove the covering and this is what I found:

1) Decent hardware in general. The lead out terminations at the bellcrank were questionable, the wires had to make an almost 90 degree bend between the brass sleeve and where they were crimped.  Easy fix, re-bent the sleeves into a teardrop shape.
2) Hot glue used extensively, the flaps will need to be redone completely, nothing can be saved. The gaps in the joints were pretty awful.
3) The wing was reasonably light but the wood used on it was pretty light, hopefully the spars will hold. I ended up adding 1/16 shear webbing up to a point just past the landing gear mounting blocks. One of the panels had been partially crushed by the weight of the other one sitting on it but I was able to save it.
4) The landing gear mounts seemed to be mounted properly; I added epoxy mostly for peace of mind.
5) No major issues with the fuselage although it feels a little heavy.  Debating if I want to use it and just "hole out" some of the 1/4 ply (two 1/8" layers glued together) or build a new fuselage. I am going electric so I knew ahead of time that some changes would be necessary.

So the model did require some work and in my view, in its original form, it was unflyable or it would not have lasted long.  This is not really acceptable. One of the club members gifted me a Brodak Clown ARF and its quality was not the greatest either. I think that I paid about $250 for the T-Rex plus maybe another $30-$50 dollars in shipping. It was not a complete waste since I think that I will be able to use most of it, but as an ARF, it was unacceptable.  Now, if someone could produce an ARF of good quality such as those made by Extreme Flight, AJ Aircraft, SebArt or even Horizon (not the foamies) I would have been willing to pay $400-$500 for it.  I realize that this price might be beyond the reach of some but it is comparable to what you would spend if you were to buy a kit, covering material and hardware without accounting for your time.

There might be a market for ARF's at a higher price point but I think that in the case of those sold by Brodak the problem may have been the quality of the product rather than its price.

[Reptoid]

Gee Reptoid that was helpful. To what end was your post? Oh, to lecture people about what? Thanks ya flop!

If anyone wants pre made planes they are available from Japan. PM me and I will let you know where. They aren't cheap but if you want a pre made plane they are available and not at Ukraine, Russian or Europen prices!

Like everything in the world, prices have gone up. The fact the US has been shielded from the increases is problematic withing itself. The hobby costs what it does, it is your choice to be involved or not. Simply a matter of moving with the times.

For those of us not in the US, prices have been prohibitive for 3-4 years. I chose to be involved and pay what it costs, others may not. But I'm not sure what attacking people and their choices is all about?

Craig Beswick.

Not sure how you interpreted my post as "attacking" people or "lecturing" them. I was merely pointing out the problems associated with being an importer of Chinese made goods in todays World since the people posting seemed to be bewildered that Brodak is discontinuing ARC/ARF's.

[Bill Morell]

When I read about all the things that one has to do to these supposedly ready to fly planes it intrigues me as to why don't you just build your own? It appears that they are putting in as much work trying to make them viable. Doesn't make much sense to me but then again nothing else does in this world does either.

[Ken Culbertson]

I agree that there is still a market for the ARF in the USA.  The price is the issue.  It costs a lot of money to make equipment for mass production which I don't think any sane person would invest in making CL ARF's.  Having said that, the jigs, etc., that we all use to make our PA ships can make just about anything and there is a growing number of them becoming available as more of us retire from building.   The European ARF's are pretty much cottage industries but they have a ready market with F2B.  We have no such market because of the BOM rule.  As much as I love this hobby, I would start such a company if I were 40 years younger and there was no BOM rule.  The market for the European style ARF is the competition flier and the $2,000 - $4,000 price tag is quite reasonable for a NATs quality plane and theirs are very much NATs quality.  There is another market that could be explored to keep us in the air.  The used plane market.  There are enough high quality planes hanging in garages and shops to outfit every serious flier in the country with two or three planes, but they are fully protected by the BOM.

I had not intended to go on an anti BOM rant but it appears I have anyway.  I fear that dropping it would tear too much at the fabric of our event, and as a traditionalist I oppose dropping it, but I also fear that not dropping it might jeopardize the future of the sport in the US.

Ken

[Teodorico Terry]

I had forgotten to mention the BOM rule, thank you for the reminder Ken.  I do realize that for many of the local contests the BOM rule is waived; either not considered at all or the pilot is allowed to fly sans any of the 20 points. I imagine that the motivation is to help promote the sport and encourage participation.  To me it is a clear indication that things have to change.

If R/C pattern (which I fly as well) had a BOM rule I am certain that participation would be next to none; they even waive the weight limit and in some respects the size limit for the Sportsman class to encourage participation. There is also a fairly active used plane market which allows new pilots to get some pretty nice equipment at reasonable prices.  More importantly, they can get their hands on a model that is properly set-up which makes the learning process easier.  Top fliers need to have those skills but they take time to develop; having access to properly set-up models might shorten the learning curve. If you think about it having a new pilot trying to learn the sequence while flying a model he or she built which may not be properly set-up makes the whole process more difficult. Let them learn how to fly and if they catch the bug they will learn the other skills they need in time.  Ken's point about used models is a good one.

I also realize that some purists will say that without the appearance points we will not be able to differentiate the top flyers because their scores will be nearly identical; to that I would say that maybe it is time to update the sequence...

[Dan McEntee]

I had forgotten to mention the BOM rule, thank you for the reminder Ken.  I do realize that for many of the local contests the BOM rule is waived; either not considered at all or the pilot is allowed to fly sans any of the 20 points. I imagine that the motivation is to help promote the sport and encourage participation.  To me it is a clear indication that things have to change.

If R/C pattern (which I fly as well) had a BOM rule I am certain that participation would be next to none; they even waive the weight limit and in some respects the size limit for the Sportsman class to encourage participation. There is also a fairly active used plane market which allows new pilots to get some pretty nice equipment at reasonable prices.  More importantly, they can get their hands on a model that is properly set-up which makes the learning process easier.  Top fliers need to have those skills but they take time to develop; having access to properly set-up models might shorten the learning curve. If you think about it having a new pilot trying to learn the sequence while flying a model he or she built which may not be properly set-up makes the whole process more difficult. Let them learn how to fly and if they catch the bug they will learn the other skills they need in time.  Ken's point about used models is a good one.

I also realize that some purists will say that without the appearance points we will not be able to differentiate the top flyers because their scores will be nearly identical; to that I would say that maybe it is time to update the sequence...

       My job and life if general kept me pretty busy during my working years and advancing age, and I practiced the "buy and fly" method of participating in the hobby. I also liked the aspect of rescuing models that may have other wise ended up in the trash and giving them some life. I did pretty well with that at contests around the midwest also. Having said that, the BOM rule needs to ne preserved. As you stated the BOM rule only affects ONE contest a year and for ONE class, and from talking with people at contests and gatherings over the last 30 years, I don't think the BOM prevents anyone from entering the NATS that really wants to. The BOM is not enforced for Intermediate and Advanced classes at the NATS, which is where I think anyone that wanted to fly would be entering anyway. I do not believe a Chinese ARF or ARC would be what anyone that is trying to make the top 20 in the Open class at the NATS would use for that purpose. That falls into the realm of the higher end ARFs that maybe one or two people in the country would be willing lay out the cash for two or three of these models. That has been hashed around endlessly and I believe that ship has sailed. Eliminating the BOM rule for ONE class at ONE contest won't create a stampede of new people into the hobby and I think that has been proven in the other disciplines. People that actually want to try C/L stunt aren't necessarily going to fly competition. The occasional new comer that I have interacted with in recent times and in other parts of the country bear that out. If they look into the commitment of time and money that it would require to be competitive in the open class, that is enough by itself to discourage them from going in that direction. It takes most of us decades of practice and development to get to a level where we might have a shot at cracking the Top 20 and if some one was flying ARFs for that long, they would either do what it takes to make that next step and build their models for it, or they just won't enter Open Class and the NATS.  Most just want to have a little fun when the urge strikes them, and we might only see them once or twice a year.  CLPA at the NATS is iconic, to use an over used cliché. It's a time honored tradition of modeling.  It stands alone amongst all the other disciplines. If you really want to have your name on that Walker Cup, you know what you have to do in order to achieve that.  Ask any of those people that do have their name on it if they would have it any other way.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Paul Wescott]

Gee Reptoid that was helpful. To what end was your post? Oh, to lecture people about what? Thanks ya flop!

If anyone wants pre made planes they are available from Japan. PM me and I will let you know where.

Craig Beswick.

Where are the Japanese ARF’s?  Why is it such a big secret that you didn’t post it here for the BENEFIT of all of us?  “Thanks Ya Flop!”

Paul W

[Ken Culbertson]

    Dan McEntee

Dan, I did not want to take up server space by duplicating your post so here goes:

I agree with you 100% as to the NATs and the Iconic nature of it.  It is not so much the BOM itself as it is the loss of the 20 points at the local level.   Maybe I see things differently since my own situation makes building extremely difficult, yet I need those points to be competitive.   If I had a vote in the decision to drop the Realism and Originality points way back when I would have voted against it and opted instead for better definitions for those categories.  I think the quality and variety of our competition planes has suffered from the change.   No argument, the Chinese ARF's are a waste of time for competition past advanced, but the European ones are probably superior to half of the planes that we fly and I agree with Paul, where are the Japanese ones I hear about.  I wish there was some way I could get my left brain to stop consulting with my right one so that I could be on one side or the other on this issue but until then ... damn.

One thing that I do think is that when it comes to the NATs the decision should be made by those that attend.  I hope to get back there, it is on my bucket list to be the oldest Rookie of the Year in Open, but until then - what they want should rule.

Ken

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Like Dan, I've used "buy and fly" a lot.  This has allowed me to practice and compete.  However, some comments about the Brodak ARF experience.

The leadouts are a trip.  The Pathfinder I've used for seasons, following seasons by its former owner, did break one leadout when I first took ownership.  To my good fortune, it was quickly repaired.  The P-40 I bought last season, not so much.

When the P-40 leadout problem surfaced, both broke at once, creating a free flight situation.  I now know how to identify the problematic leadout swaging.  At a minimum, I'd advise a pull test every flight day.

I have a Vector ARF with a Brodak 40. It needs the warped flaps replaced and the leadouts replaced.  I may sell it off for 100 USD to a party interested in doing that work, should I find someone.

Also, I've got a NIB Strega ARF, a well as NIB small case ST 60 to go with it.  May sell that locally or ship it; have not decided.  Got other projects that have a lot of promise (completed, but aging, stunters, as well as a commissioned new build in the works.)

best,

Peter

[Joe Ed Pederson]

SIG told me several weeks ago when I talked with them, that Control Line kits would be going away as well.

 

Mike

I figured that was coming, so I bought a Sig Super Chipmunk from Central Hobbies in Billings, Montana.  The price was still at $134.95 (plus $45 shipping).  I had bought Sig CL kits in the last few years and the wood quality was either really good or really bad.  As luck would have it, I'm going to have to replace all the sheet wood and at today's contest balsa prices that will be about $65.00.  Plus, I knew I would have to replace the plastic wheel pants, and cowling. 

Why bother, you might ask?  Well, it's not a good reason, but it is a reason.  I bought a Sig Super Chipmunk kit in High School and never finished it.  I just like the looks of the plane. 

I like building my own models so the BOM doesn't bother me.  I probably will never get more than 10 appearance points, but I like building my own models and I have learned to loathe salvaging poorly built models and models that don't have weight boxes, adjustable leadouts, and and adjustable rudders and are overweight.

When it comes to ARCs and ARFs on the level of quality that Brodak sold, an ageless general aviation joke comes to mind,  "What does it take to make a million dollars in general aviation?  Answer: Start with two million."  Even with Chinese slave labor or Vietnamese labor charges, I doubt any young man could make $100,000 unless he started with $200,000.  If there was a profit to be made in ARCs and ARFs, I'm sure Brodak would still be contracting to have them made.  I still wouldn't buy one because of the lack of quality controls so evident in ARF's (motor mounts in Noblers, and leadout failures in Brodak models).

If I build my own I can make it right the first time.

Joe Ed Pederson

[Dan McEntee]

Dan, I did not want to take up server space by duplicating your post so here goes:

I agree with you 100% as to the NATs and the Iconic nature of it.  It is not so much the BOM itself as it is the loss of the 20 points at the local level.   
Ken

  To me, giving up appearance points was just an incentive to learn to fly just a little bit better to make up for it. That's only 2 points a trick, very reachable goal for anyone unless you are scoring 620 or something like that!! At the Paducah contest several years back, I had to fly a profile model in Expert,( a well worn Sakitumi with no flaps, OS .46LA ),  against Kenny Stevens, Tom Dixon, Eric Taylor  and several other heavy hitters from the south and southeast that I can't remember right now. My best flight was 560. I knew it was a good flight and we were flying in front of NATS quality judges There were 16 entered in Expert that day. My score was good for 13th place , but I was only 13 points off the podium! Appearance points for me would have made a big difference, but that finish against that crowd was more than acceptable to me. Got some nice comments from some of them and showed that the Judges were not biased against the model. This is what probably 90% of the general rank and file that fly stunt look for, just to get a good, satisfying showing and maybe beat some one you had not before. A trophy to show for it would be nice, but the memory is worth more.

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Bill Morell]

I'm still blown away by people actually buying these knowing they are buying a defective product.

[Dennis Moritz]

Brodak ARFs were revolutionary in effect. Cheaper than a kit build. Twenty or so years ago when they first hit, contest boom (amounted to that in our small world). Marginally built profiles were replaced by full bodied stunters. Yep. Flawed in many ways. Leadouts, covering that lifted, and so forth. Nevertheless these planes flew competitively for many who could not build a decent flying alternative. That era is over. If we represented a wider market we'd have replacement ARFs same as RC, not made of balsa.

 

[Dennis Moritz]

Brodak ARFs were revolutionary. Cheaper than a kit build. Twenty or so years ago when they first hit, contests boom (amounted to that in our small world). Marginally built profiles were replaced by full bodied stunters. Yep. Flawed in many ways. Leadouts, covering that lifted, and so forth. Nevertheless these planes flew competitively for many who could not build a decent flying alternative. That era is over. If we represented a wider market we'd have replacement ARFs same as RC, not made of balsa.

[Dwayne Donnelly]

I'm still blown away by people actually buying these knowing they are buying a defective product.

If you live in a apartment, don't have a workshop, to busy with life to build or for whatever reason you can't build your own model arfs  are great.  They definitely have their place.  They will be missed.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

And the loose covering is par for the course.  At least that is not as spectacular as a leadout failure or the departure of the nose forward of the wing.

[Colin McRae]

I'm still blown away by people actually buying these knowing they are buying a defective product.

Bill, I don't think one size fits all. I purchased a Brodak profile P40 ARF last year and my model has been fine. Covering good, lead outs good, etc. I consider myself still a rookie builder and did not have a larger 40 size model, and wanted to get one and get it in the air quickly. It served it's purpose. So, to say ARF's are bad is not necessarily true. My Brodak P40, and at my flying skill level, has been fine.

But there is one thing to note. I have seen YouTube videos where the Brodak P40 ARF came with a warped fuselage. Before I purchased, I called Brodak to explain what I have seen and asked them to open the box and ensure the one they send me does not have a warped fuselage or warped wing. They said sure and the model that I received had no defects. Brodak has been great to work with. Excellent customer service far as I am concerned.

On the other hand, I also have a Top Flite Nobler ARF still in its box that I got for $50. It has a terrible looking bell crank and lead outs and will certainly need upgrade work. Plus, modelers recommend also beefing up the motor mounts. But I could not resist at $50. It will be a good model some day when I get around to putting it together.

[Ken Culbertson]

Bill, I don't think one size fits all. I purchased a Brodak profile P40 ARF last year and my model has been fine. Covering good, lead outs good, etc. I consider myself still a rookie builder and did not have a larger 40 size model, and wanted to get one and get it in the air quickly. It served it's purpose. So, to say ARF's are bad is not necessarily true. My Brodak P40, and at my flying skill level, has been fine.

But there is one thing to note. I have seen YouTube videos where the Brodak P40 ARF came with a warped fuselage. Before I purchased, I called Brodak to explain what I have seen and asked them to open the box and ensure the one they send me does not have a warped fuselage or warped wing. They said sure and the model that I received had no defects. Brodak has been great to work with. Excellent customer service far as I am concerned.

On the other hand, I also have a Top Flite Nobler ARF still in its box that I got for $50. It has a terrible looking bell crank and lead outs and will certainly need upgrade work. Plus, modelers recommend also beefing up the motor mounts. But I could not resist at $50. It will be a good model some day when I get around to putting it together.

If the bellcrank in it is only terrible, you have one of the good ones.  Beef up the motor mounts and replace the controls.  They fly great.

Ken