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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Pat Johnston on February 16, 2017, 04:42:09 PM
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Sometimes you wonder when you lost control. My partner (all modelers are) in Louisiana, Allen Perett talked me into setting up the ribs and formers for "Moitle". This is a super cute little biplane which was the first C/L model to fly inverted and do outside loops in 1944! The fuselage is stick and stringer style with the whole fuselage past the wings being sticks over formers. In otherwords, it is to be covered and all you see are the stringers, like old time Free Flight. Anyway, I am offering the whole rib set and formers for $35 plus postage. Not bad considering there are 38 main ribs and 32 half ribs and the formers have all the slots for the stringers. I'll paste on a shot of the formers and ribs so you can see what they look like. Excuse me for this crass comercial message, but this is one of my favorite planes and so dang cute it is hard to believe. Catch me at patsplans@yahoo.com.
Pat Johnston
Ancient History Stunt
Skunk Works
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OOPS! Almost forgot to paste on a PDF file of the cut sheet. This gives you an idea of what the parts look like. Better viewng with a PDF file.
Pat Johnston
Skunk Works
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A guy would want to fly that one carefully. No low inverted pullouts.
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Hey Pat, I see that you've it set up the fuse for jig build. Sweet.
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My friend ,Allan Perret put me on to this model. It is an old time stunt ship with excellent flying abilities. When we got Mr. Pat Johnson involved I knew we had a winner! I've ordered five kits for myself and several flying buddies. Please consider having at least one for yourself? I don't believe you will be disappointed. Regards to all, Blaine
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Are the plans by Don Hutchenson? I have a set of his plans, and wonder if these parts woud work with his plans? Don has built a couple of Moitle bipes and it is on my build list. His first appeared at VSC back in the early 90's I believe.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Hey Pat!
Looking at that beautiful laser cut set of ribs, I cannot help but recall those great days of print-wood balsa and a half a Gillette blue blade.... A tube of Ambroid, some straight pins, stolen from Mom's sewing basket, and in no time at all (three years) you had it all ready to go. Out at the school yard in a foot of snow with a sparker and a dead dry-cell. Barefooted.
That's the way it was when we were kids, and we liked it. Chewed the bark off trees, too.
Save a set for me,
dale g
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Moitle in the bones?
(http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29935.0;attach=118887;image)
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Right, Dan. Distictly was drawn using Don's plan to get the laser parts to fit. Should be complete compatibility between the laser parts and Don's plans.
Pat Johnston
Skunk Works
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Right, Dan. Distictly was drawn using Don's plan to get the laser parts to fit. Should be complete compatibility between the laser parts and Don's plans.
Pat Johnston
Skunk Works
OK, I'm in! I'll be contacting you soon!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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What are the dimensions Pat?
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Nice looking bipe!
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Here are the spec's. . . 38 1/8" span, equal wings, about 32 ounces RTF, 432 inches of wing area, 29-40 power. On that last part, I feel that a 40 is a bit large, but what the heck. The airfoil has almost a perfect elliptical front end with the high point 25% back, making it very efficient. The word is that this is a very good flying little plane. I'd believe it.
Dale, I'll catch you.
Pat Johnston
Skunk Works
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Here is Don Hutchinson's Moitle from the AMA Museum...
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I've mentioned elsewhere how well Don's second "Moitle" flew at the VSC, but, I left out its gliding ability. It glides very well, making soft landings very easy. I was afraid it might drop out of the air...again, no worries.
dg
Thank you, Pat
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Don Hutchinson holding his Moitle and I'm not sure what Bob Geiske is holding. Took this in Dallas a few years back.
Steve
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Chris Cox flew a Moitle around here about 15-20 years ago. He said it flew very well.
I recall seeing it fly at the Boeing Space Center west lot. Chris said that it met its demise when the engine quit in the OH8. Plane and lines fell on Chris, but he dodged the airplane and survived. Sounds like a perfect plane for a RO-Jett .40/pipe. S?P LL~ Steve
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Don Hutchinson holding his Moitle and I'm not sure what Bob Geiske is holding. Took this in Dallas a few years back.
Steve
With those teeny little flaps I'd say it's probably a Go Devil.
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Here's a picture of Roy DeCamera's Go-Devil for comparison. Unusual color combination, but I like it a lot...and Roy does spectacular finishes. FP-40, IIRC. H^^ Steve
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Does anyone know what engine the original Moitle used?
Bo Z.
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I'm loving this. Hey Pat, this might be the design that pays off your laser cutter. I have to give credit to Cliff "Bubby" Betz for introducing me to this design. When I visited with him last week he was building one from a plan he picked up at the AMA museum, which he bought after seeing Don Hutch's Moitle there. Soon as I saw all those notches in the formers I immediately thought of Pat for the laser work. And now only a little over a week later Pat has made it happen. Picture is 3 Torpedo's that club members will be using for power, 2 .29's and a .32, all 3 are glow versions.
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The plane that Bob Gieseke is holding is Don H's "Go-Devil Jr.", a Yates design, of course. The engine in Don's "Moitle" that I flew at the VSC was a spark ignition Torpedo 32. Inverted mounted sparker, ran beautifully!
The original back in the '40s had a Super Cyke 60.
dg
Edit: Of course, as Keith notes below, Go-Devils are Bob Palmers creation, not Yates.
dg
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I am still devastated over the loss of my Moittle. As mentioned by Steve Helmick, it was a wonderful flying airplane. Do not be fooled into thinking that because it was the first control line airplane to fly sustained inverted flight and to perform the up until the time "impossible" outside loop, it well not fly well. Moittle flew all manuevers with ease and precision. I could steer her through round loops, making small corrections where needed. Of about 5 or 6 contests entered, the only one lost was the one where the engine quit in the overhead.
The only two areas that were less than wonderful were take-offs and landings. With the balloon tires so far ahead of the wing leading edge, take-offs required a quick hop and immediate level off to climb attitude. The landings were, despite what Dale says above, something that emulated a kangaroo in heat...
My Moittle was covered in transparent yellow and red silk. I think the all up weight was between 32 - 34 ounces, no doubt one of the reasons it flew so darn well. I will search about for a picture and post if found. I hung on to the broken tail section for many years, as I could not bring myself to throwing it out. Some airplanes come with a soul, and Moittle most certainly did.
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Where can plans be had ??? Ed.
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I can see it now....every year, a dozen or so "Moitles" at the VSC, Mike wishing for the good ol' days....with all the Humongouses and Jamisons.
"Moitles" with three blade CF props and ROJett 40s. Electric "Moitles". Is that a monokoted ARF "Moitle" that Bart is flying?
and the beat goes on.....
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Chris,
I made only two takeoff and landings, both in the grass, so maybe I got lucky. It glided so well that when I held it off until all the lift was gone, it didn't have any energy left to bounce with. I'm glad someone else has had one of these on the lines, really remarkable.
dg
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Chris,
I made only two takeoff and landings, both in the grass, so maybe I got lucky. It glided so well that when I held it off until all the lift was gone, it didn't have any energy left to bounce with. I'm glad someone else has had one of these on the lines, really remarkable.
dg
Just looking at the gear location on the plans I could tell it would be "pogo stick on landing". So thinking about a couple of possible gear location modifications, both of which would move gear rearward. Would such a mod disqualify it from OTS ? What if I made the gear removable, it could be plugged into a socket one way with wheels as per design, or rotated 180° and plugged in moving gear back to LE ?
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Chris's Moitle was a real inspiration that many years ago. Unforgetable!
The first order of 12 sets of Moitle parts wiped out my 3/32" stock so I have ordered another 100 sheets. They will come in a week, so then I can be cutting them again. Really, when did I loose control??? I have been having a blast designing planes this fall and winter. What else is there to do when we've had this much snow on the ground? I'll send out a post on the two Magicians I've done lately. Teaser!
Pat Johnston
Design Studio
Skunk Works
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Allen,
Plugable gear is Perfect! Then it can be put in the stock position or swun back to be better for asphalt. Or even make up a removable set that looks just like the plans and build another set which bends back. Now you have a grass set and a hard surface set.
Pat
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The plane that Bob Gieseke is holding is Don H's "Go-Devil Jr.", a Yates design, of course.
dg
Hi Dale,
I know this thread is about the Moitle. Then, the picture showed up showing the Go Devil. Several publications and listening to Bob Palmer on several occasions indicate that the Go Devil was designed by Bob Palmer.
Keith
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Just looking at the gear location on the plans I could tell it would be "pogo stick on landing". So thinking about a couple of possible gear location modifications, both of which would move gear rearward. Would such a mod disqualify it from OTS ? What if I made the gear removable, it could be plugged into a socket one way with wheels as per design, or rotated 180° and plugged in moving gear back to LE ?
Oh boy, here we go again. On this one, the rules for OTS are fairly clear. This is not my "opinion". From the PAMPA OTS rules:
"Landing gear must exit in the same location as the original design. It shall not be relocated to provide for perceived advantages in ground handling. ... A contest director may disqualify a model that does not comply with the intent of these guidelines."
"Drop-off landing gear will not be permitted. (Note: where drop-off gear was a feature of the original design, contestants should preserve the appearance and location of the original gear, but must disable its drop-off function for competition.)"
So, to address a critical (but vocal) minority who chooses to not understand the term "intent of these guidelines" or "the spirit of the event", it might be possible to find an Event Director or Contest Director or contest planning to allow changes to the above rules for a specific contest and forgo the "intent of these guidelines".
I have seen a Ringmaster disqualified from an OTS contest because it had a lengthened tail wheel strut so the thing would set level on the ground. It could made remarkably good landings.
Keith
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Oh boy, here we go again. On this one, the rules for OTS are fairly clear. This is not my "opinion". From the PAMPA OTS rules:
"Landing gear must exit in the same location as the original design. It shall not be relocated to provide for perceived advantages in ground handling. ... A contest director may disqualify a model that does not comply with the intent of these guidelines."
"Drop-off landing gear will not be permitted. (Note: where drop-off gear was a feature of the original design, contestants should preserve the appearance and location of the original gear, but must disable its drop-off function for competition.)"
So, to address a critical (but vocal) minority who chooses to not understand the term "intent of these guidelines" or "the spirit of the event", it might be possible to find an Event Director or Contest Director or contest planning to allow changes to the above rules for a specific contest and forgo the "intent of these guidelines".
I have seen a Ringmaster disqualified from an OTS contest because it had a lengthened tail wheel strut so the thing would set level on the ground. It could made remarkably good landings.
Keith
OK, understand all that. One more question, is it allowable to make the tail surfaces with built up structures to save weight ?
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As long as you can't see the change. GO READ THE RULES... VD~ VD~ VD~ HB~>
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The plane that Bob Gieseke is holding is Don H's "Go-Devil Jr.", a Yates design, of course. The engine in Don's "Moitle" that I flew at
The original back in the '40s had a Super Cyke 60.
dg
Thanks, Dale - I have a brand new Super Cyke just waiting to be run in and mounted on a Moitle!
Bob Z.
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Bob,
I sure wish I hadn't mistakenly said the Go-Devil was a Yates design. It's Bob Palmer's, of course.
With your command of the condenser vs. the transistor spark ignition system, the Super Cyke should be a perfect match for the "Moitle".
dg
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More on the Moitle! I still have a copy of the plans that I drew up in 1993. I plan to get them into PDF format tomorrow, after that, anybody that wants one just provide me an E-mail address. For more research, get a copy of the Francis Reynolds article from the June 1946 Air Trails. AMA has it if no other source available. You will see the tiny drawing from which the plans evolved. I also was in contact with Francis and he sent me some sketches of bulkheads and a linen bakelite cowling he made. He also signed off on the plans before I built one. No, Francis was not from New Jersey as I first thought, the name Moitle came from the nose art on a B-17!
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" . . . Electric "Moitles" . . . "and the beat goes on..."
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God forbid!!! n1
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The more I look at the Moitle, the more I like it. My parts are on order. ;D
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i really love the vintage look! anybody have a print of the plan to show here? curious with the design!
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More on the Moitle! I still have a copy of the plans that I drew up in 1993. I plan to get them into PDF format tomorrow, after that, anybody that wants one just provide me an E-mail address. For more research, get a copy of the Francis Reynolds article from the June 1946 Air Trails. AMA has it if no other source available. You will see the tiny drawing from which the plans evolved. I also was in contact with Francis and he sent me some sketches of bulkheads and a linen bakelite cowling he made. He also signed off on the plans before I built one. No, Francis was not from New Jersey as I first thought, the name Moitle came from the nose art on a B-17!
Check your email.
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I got carried away again. This Moitle madness is intoxicating. I drew a full set of plans with notes. Now they are for anyone to look at and feel free to download and make copies. They are a PDF file so the printers will like that for their plotters. I will attach them and again, feel free to make your own copies if you like. BTW, this is plan #199. Azzalotofdrawings!
Pat Johnston
ACAD Mania
Skunk Works
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Pat,
I see you have drawn in regular pinned hinges. Did the original have cloth hinges? Or those brass triangular ones?
Thanks, Jerry
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Not clue. but I suspect they were cloth. Could be anything from that era.
Pat
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More on the Moitle! I still have a copy of the plans that I drew up in 1993. I plan to get them into PDF format tomorrow, after that, anybody that wants one just provide me an E-mail address. For more research, get a copy of the Francis Reynolds article from the June 1946 Air Trails. AMA has it if no other source available. You will see the tiny drawing from which the plans evolved. I also was in contact with Francis and he sent me some sketches of bulkheads and a linen bakelite cowling he made. He also signed off on the plans before I built one. No, Francis was not from New Jersey as I first thought, the name Moitle came from the nose art on a B-17!
thanks a lot for the plans Don and Pat Johnston! very kind form both of you
one question: what would happen if the lines and bellcrank are inside the bottom wing? not worried with original design here, just a curiosity regarding flight condition
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thanks a lot for the plans Don and Pat Johnston! very kind form both of you
one question: what would happen if the lines and bellcrank are inside the bottom wing? not worried with original design here, just a curiosity regarding flight condition
Excessive right roll, outboard wing low. The cg will always seek a point on the flying line's extension.
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Excessive right roll, outboard wing low. The cg will always seek a point on the flying line's extension.
thanks for the reply
outside weight would overcome that?
similar thing if i install the bellcrank on the bottom of a J3 fuselage?
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thanks for the reply
outside weight would overcome that?
similar thing if i install the bellcrank on the bottom of a J3 fuselage?
Yes, but you would need ton of weight on the wheels (not good). Ideal is LO guide aligned with vertical CG, as indicated on plan. See note on plan about not making LO guide position permanent until right elevation is found.. You do that by hanging from lines or flight testing.. J3--Bellcrank location has no effect on this, only thing that matters is location of LO guide with respect to CG, both vertically and fore/aft.
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I managed to find a couple of pictures of my Moitle. My daughter, Brenda, was about 8 years old at the time. She will turn 30 later this month!
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Side view.
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Great looking plane Chris, thanks for the pics.
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Chris,
That's the plane that inspired me. So cool. Holler if you want a short kit. I now have ACAD plans for it.
Would you believe that I just delivered 8 Moitle kits to the PO this AM? That makes a total of 20 out to modelers. Do we need a special event for Moitles at the VSC? If you had ten entries that would be a hoot. I suppose this is the worlds first original stunt plane, or so it would seem.
I have had a kick getting these kits into the builder's hands and look forward to seeing how the builds go. Perhaps the builders can put on some photos here so we can see the progress. All good fun.
Pat Johnston
Skunk Works
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I managed to find a couple of pictures of my Moitle. My daughter, Brenda, was about 8 years old at the time. She will turn 30 later this month!
Dude, your kinda old huh,, LL~
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And look who's talking. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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And look who's talking. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Hey now, I am usually one of the youngest guys at local contests,,
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Right, Mark. Just a kid at most of these contests. Danged duffers!
Pat
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Watching the mailbox for my Moitle. ;D
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I have Tom Morris Old Time Stunt drawings, and on the Moitle plan it shows a 12"X12" prop for the Cyke. Seems a little extreme to me, but hey, you never know. I have been running a 12"X8" on my Boxcar Chief, and it works really well. A 12"-6" worked OK, but the 12"-8" pulls much better. May have to try a 12-12 just to see how it works. Spitfires and Orwicks work well with 13-6 wood props or 12-6 APC's. I have one great running Cyke, I might have to think about the Moitle. You might have to modify the firewall to mount the ignition goodies through the front. Unless you mount them permanently in the fuse. I am sure it would fly better on a light weight glo, but where would be the fun of that?
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Jim-
I think the 12/12 was a misprint. I also noticed it in the text of the Air trails article about flying stunt with an airplane that can turn both ways. Else where in the article I think he called for 6 or 8 pitch. The heading spread across two pages of the large size format from 1946 showing various maneuvers that he had done with the Moitle. There was also a small side view of the model plus the dimensions of the wings and that is what I drew the plans from, after consulting with Mr.Reynolds and getting some bulkhead patterns from him, He also endorsed the plans when I finished them. The article came from June 1946 Air Trails and can be gotten from AMA library. This is what got me into the stunt game all those years ago!