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Author Topic: Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!  (Read 1307 times)

Offline John Hammonds

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Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!
« on: April 19, 2013, 09:15:13 AM »
http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/04/how-nasa-brought-the-monstrous-f-1-moon-rocket-back-to-life/

Some of the figures quoted in this article are beyond my comprehension.  "55,000 horsepower just to run the F-1's fuel and oxidizer pumps". n~ As for the 32,000,000 hp developed by the F1 itself, my brain hurts.

I can't believe this has not got any coverage in the news, even in the "And Finally" section where they usually have some pointless article about the plight of the Axolotl or similar.

TTFN
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2013, 12:10:35 PM »
http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/04/how-nasa-brought-the-monstrous-f-1-moon-rocket-back-to-life/

Some of the figures quoted in this article are beyond my comprehension.  "55,000 horsepower just to run the F-1's fuel and oxidizer pumps". n~ As for the 32,000,000 hp developed by the F1 itself, my brain hurts.

     The article sort of lost me when they started talking about computers and how much better they could do it now. I suspect they will find out why that is not true if they ever get to a full-up test.

    Ultimately the success or failure of the resurrection project will be determined by how many blow-ups will be allowed before they pull the plug. The tendency will be to give up on the first failure.

    The existence and misuse of software and advanced computers are mostly the reason we can't and won't do anything risky or cheap.

    Brett

Offline John Hammonds

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Re: Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 12:24:46 PM »
Ultimately the success or failure of the resurrection project will be determined by how many blow-ups will be allowed before they pull the plug. The tendency will be to give up on the first failure.

I dunno, perhaps I'm not quite as cynical.  ;) Now, if your talking about the bean counters then you are probably correct but I would like to think people like these would have been just as successful in an environment where a "Stuff the cost, we gotta get to the moon before the Ruskies" mentality prevailed.

But time will tell I guess.

TTFN
John.
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Offline EddyR

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Re: Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2013, 12:49:32 PM »
The original F1 was around 30+ Million horsepower and there was five of them lit up for take off. I was at the Cape for a early launch and I was 5 miles away and it was scary. A friend Bill Dodge was one of the Lunar Lander  engineers and I was his escort. Rocket thrust doesn't relate well to  horsepower but Bill told me that 30 million was about right. Maybe Brett can update us.
Ed
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2013, 02:37:02 PM »
The original F1 was around 30+ Million horsepower and there was five of them lit up for take off. I was at the Cape for a early launch and I was 5 miles away and it was scary. A friend Bill Dodge was one of the Lunar Lander  engineers and I was his escort. Rocket thrust doesn't relate well to  horsepower but Bill told me that 30 million was about right. Maybe Brett can update us.
Ed

   Horsepower is not a good way to measure it in this case, because the thrust is more-or-less constant but the velocity changes. Figure 1.5 million lb thrust (which is the early low rating, it eventually got up to 1.8 or so at sea level on the later models), and the first stage accelerates it to 7500 feet/sec. 1500000*7500 = 11.25 billion ft-lb/sec = 20.45 million HP for each engine at the end of the first stage burn.

   The reason that HP is not a good measure of a rocket engines performance is that if you just care about the engine itself, it's not representative. At liftoff the HP being generated is miniscule, and at cut-off it's 20.45 million HP, because the rocket velocity matters. If you just launched the first stage by itself, the final HP would probably be three times as high with exactly the same engine performance. Running on a test stand, the engine HP is *zero* regardless of the thrust.

  This gets into the extremely gross misunderstanding of what horsepower actually means among most people and is rampantly misapplied in stunt discussions. If nothing is moving there is NO work being done, and since horsepower is the rate at which work is done, if it's not moving there is NO horsepower.

   Rocket engines are rated by thrust and specific impulse. The thrust is obvious, it's how much force is applied at the mounts. The specific impulse (ISP) is how much momentum changes for a unit mass of propellant. The momentum is the thrust x time (figure lbF and seconds). also called the impulse, units of lbf-sec, and the propellant mass is lb, so if you ignore niceties of comparing force to mass, the units of ISP is seconds. It's a measure of fuel efficiency for a given thrust.

   A really good chemical engine like the upper stages of the Saturn V have an ISP of about 425 seconds. The first stage has a lower ISP of only 263 seconds. The difference is the fuel - the upper stages use liquid hydrogen and the first stage uses RP-1 (more-or-less ultrapure Kerosene). Both use liquid oxygen as the oxidizer.

   This seems like a mistake and that they could have made it work better by using liquid hydrogen in the first stage, too, and nearly doubled the performance. But that is not the case. Liquid hydrogen is very efficient in terms of mass but it's also not very dense. So to get enough of it, the tanks have to be very large AND have to have insulation, which weighs enough more than it offsets the fuel efficiency. All that Orange foam that they spray on the Shuttle external fuel tank (and that sheds, and ended up destroying Columbia) is because of the liquid hydrogen.

   Kerosene isn't as fuel efficient but it is dense and "space-efficient" so the tanks can be much smaller. For the upper stages it's a different story because they had progressively less dead-weight payload so the tank mass didn't matter as much. Still, the tank design and construction, particularly the second stage, were very difficult problems to solve and ended up being the limiting factor in the Saturn V development.

  The thrust and ISP also change as the external air pressure changes. You get the highest ISP if the pressure at the exit is the same as the atmospheric pressure. The engine outlet area determines the exit pressure, so in a vacuum you want a GIGANTIC (or really, infinitely large) exit. Engines designed for sea-level operation have small exit bells. Since the pressure during the first stage operation goes from sea level to essentially a vacuum, there is a compromise size that works best, and the thrust and ISP change as the flight goes up.

    Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2013, 03:30:24 PM »
I dunno, perhaps I'm not quite as cynical.  ;) Now, if your talking about the bean counters then you are probably correct but I would like to think people like these would have been just as successful in an environment where a "Stuff the cost, we gotta get to the moon before the Ruskies" mentality prevailed.

   It may have come across more cynical than intended. I assume that blowing up the hardware more than a few times is necessary, and that by somewhat arrogantly assuming that they can "do it better" because they have computers and modern manufacturing techniques, they are going to raise the odds of blowups. Particular when one of their definitions of "better" involves trying to shave the parts down to save weight as implied by the article. So whoever is funding this effort needs to tolerate a significant number of failures as a normal course of work. If, on the other hand, the first blow-up leads to an extensive failure investigation and analysis to prove the next one won't blow up, they will get stuck. The latter is what I see time after time.

  Brett

Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2013, 03:35:28 PM »
Gee, Brett, you talk like a rocket scientist! y1
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2013, 05:36:59 PM »
   It may have come across more cynical than intended. I assume that blowing up the hardware more than a few times is necessary, and that by somewhat arrogantly assuming that they can "do it better" because they have computers and modern manufacturing techniques, they are going to raise the odds of blowups. Particular when one of their definitions of "better" involves trying to shave the parts down to save weight as implied by the article. So whoever is funding this effort needs to tolerate a significant number of failures as a normal course of work. If, on the other hand, the first blow-up leads to an extensive failure investigation and analysis to prove the next one won't blow up, they will get stuck. The latter is what I see time after time.

I would expect that we can do it better now than we could 50 years ago!

And yes, blowups are to be expected, too -- computer simulation is all well and good, and done right will allow more progress between tests.  But if people aren't expecting times when there's going to be shattered, smoking remains lying around and some whiz-kid saying "oh, I didn't think of that" then they shouldn't be involved in development projects.

(And I don't mean that just about rocketry -- it's just that with rockets the shattered smoking remains are so in reality and not just metaphorically).
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 07:11:29 PM »
 Brett wrote:
"All that Orange foam that they spray on the Shuttle external fuel tank (and that sheds, and ended up destroying Columbia) is because of the liquid hydrogen." (Quote)


I had always assumed the he shedding stuff was ice that formed on the tanks due to rapid depressurization during launch. Wrong!

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Another "Nothing to do with Controlline" but WOW!
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2013, 08:29:15 PM »
Brett wrote:
"All that Orange foam that they spray on the Shuttle external fuel tank (and that sheds, and ended up destroying Columbia) is because of the liquid hydrogen." (Quote)


I had always assumed the he shedding stuff was ice that formed on the tanks due to rapid depressurization during launch. Wrong!

Ya' learn something every day!

  Lots of ice used to come off the Saturn V, as well as the shuttle. On the Saturns, the first stage was not insulated, the second stage was insulated on the outside (and painted white/black) and the third stage was insulated on the inside. Note that both for the Saturn, and for the Shuttle external tank, the tank was the body of the rocket - there's no separate body with a tank inside. The corrugated sections are the joiner between the tanks.  The upper stages of the Saturn had one big tank with a common bulkhead to define the liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen tanks.

     Most of what you see in slow-mo launch pictures is ice coming off the S-I stage LOX tank, since it was uninsulated.

    Ice forms on the outside of all of the tanks. The vibration of the launch dislodges it. The pressure in the tank is more-or-less constant at a relatively low pressure. In addition to surface ice, where there is external insulation, water from both rain and from condensation soaks into the insulation, and then freezes, making heavy and hard ice-impregnated foam. On the Saturn V, this insulation shed from the second stage at times, but there wasn't much important to hit as it fell away. The fins are close to cosmetic! The rocket was gyro-stabilized and controlled by moving the engines.

   On the shuttle, the orbiter hung off the side of the tank, and the ice and foam would hit the tiles and the leading edge RCC. It was a common occurance, even though the tiles and RCC were not specified to stand that sort of damage. What got Columbia was a chuck of ice-impregnated foam that happened to come off at just the worst time and just the worst place to knock a hole in the leading edge RCC panel. This is rock-hard solid carbon. Had it happened any earlier in the flight or later in the flight, the speed it hit would have been low, since the chunk has to fall off and then be slowed by aerodynamic drag, then have the orbiter hit it. At low speeds it isn't moving fast enough to cause damage, and at high altitude there's no air to slow it down so there is little relative motion.

   Once the hole got knocked in the leading edge, it was all over for the orbiter. There's no backup plan. There may have been a way to fix it with an emergency space walk - completely unplanned for - by filling bags of water, putting it in the hole, and letting it freeze, but no one knew that there was a hole to fix. The water would melt but it takes a while and it was conceivable that it would last long enough to get past the point of significant heating with the wing still attached. Launching a rescue mission - also unplanned - would be conceivable, too, but throwing together a shuttle stack in a few days or a week and launching it has serious risk associated with it, too.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 12:02:04 AM by Brett Buck »


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