model plane construction in Asia

[Kevin M. Smith]

I didn't think I'd ever buy an ARC or ARF until I looked at my work schedule for the next year and realized that if I ever had a chance to fly a C/L plan in the near term, I'd have to buy something built up - and do I want to spend several months building a  practice plan that I might want to risk ?

After opening the box of the new Oriental ARC Kit I purchased from the local hobby dealer, I must say that I am pretty impressed with the construction and wood quality of the wing ("d-tube") and fuse.. I'm not the greatest builder (and I've built my share of profile stunters and R/C gliders), but I would have to admit, I don't think I could have done as good of a job. I'm sure some of you guys could to better (especially with models that would be too expensive to have factory built) , but I certainly couldn't.

So, the question.  Do we have any info on the construction techniques used the factories over there ?  I know they are going to be building a production line instead of a "one-off"  - but it would be interesting to know some of the techniques they have learned from building so many models of all types.  Are there any photos or factory tour info out there ?

[Paul Taylor]

Never heard of anyone touring the factories. My guess is someone sends them a proto type of construction and they copy as best they can. They are good at that. (Want to by a Rolex?)
I would question some of the glues and wood inside some of the stuff. Controls are another question mark. I have heard that some things have improved over the years. But ARFs have been coming from Asia for years, just look at any RC flight line. 

[Dan McEntee]

    Like a lot of things. there have been good and bad in the ARF endeavors by the various manufacturers. Wood selection can run the full range of good to bad. Covering materials vary. Hardware like bolts, screws, nuts and bell cranks are often substandard. Sometime wood substitution for hard woods like ply wood doublers isn't quite up to par. The companies that do it in China have come and gone also, and if I remember correctly there was difficulty recently finding a reliable one and caused some shortages. The stuff from Top Flite/Great Planes has been the most consistent over all, I would have to say. But I think the best ARF I ever bought for all around quality was the SIG Primary Force. I pretty much used everything in the kit, built it as per instructions, and it's still around after several hard years of flying. Others may agree and disagree, but that's my feelings.
   Good luck and have fun,
     Dan McEntee

[Tim Wescott]

    Like a lot of things. there have been good and bad in the ARF endeavors by the various manufacturers.

I have a number of acquaintances of various degrees of separation who have had stuff manufactured in the far east.  As far as I know, the whole ARF experience is, for the wholesaler, like buying any other thing out of China: they start by low-balling you on the price and telling you the quality will be high.  Then they try to pass off crap.  It's up to you, the wholesaler, to inspect what you get and refuse anything that's substandard.  By the time you get them educated as to just what you'll put up with, they've raised the price.

You can get good stuff made in China, but it takes a lot of work in the US to make it happen, and like anything else you have to pay for quality.

So if you get a good made-in-China ARF, it's because there's someone in a close-by timezone who's riding the Fractious Horse of Quality Control to make it happen.  And if you get a good quality made-in-China ARF from one place, that doesn't mean that they all are good quality.

I haven't heard any complaints about the Brodak ARFs -- they're good, aren't they?

[GGeezer]

I Have a local friend who, several years ago, decided he wanted to get into the ARF (R/C) selling game. He ordered a 1/2 container load of a variety of custom designed R/C models from a factory in China that specialized in the manufacture of ARF planes. While the quality of the materials and construction were acceptable, their attention to detail like control installations etc. was weak.
He took the opportunity to visit the factory and has many interesting stories to tell. Most of the parts are laser cut and the manufacturing (building) is done almost exclusively by women and girls working long shifts and living on the factory premises. CA is used for all construction.
He sold off the lot but decided not to do it anymore as there wasn't near the profit in the business that there first appeared to be... and too many problems.

[Randy Cuberly]

I've had several ARFS from Brodak and two from Top Flite.
The only one I could really reccommend to anyone is the SV11 from Brodak.  I think this "kit" was actually engineered by Randy Smith, most certainly the design is.
The wood, including the hardwood, was excellent.  There was a slight problem with the alignment of the spar holders between the two wing halves but it was easily fixed by some sanding on the spar connectors that went into the slots.  The bellcrank and leadouts were OK and quite serviceable.  The control horns were junk and I replaced them with Tom Morris horns, carbon push rods, and ball links.  I also added 1/16 aluminum pieces on top of the motor mounts where the engine bolted down.  The screws were probably serviceable but metric and I didn't want to mess with them so I replaced all of them with UNF-2B machine screws (socket head grade 8 only).
The only other thing that became a problem was the covering material...It's the worst stuff that can be imagined...it kept coming loose and shrinking in odd places while stretching in others.  Most of the trim crap came off after the first flight.
The airplane on the other hand flew very, very well.  I put an OS 55AX with a venturi and an extra head gasket in it (this thing is a power house, but very manageable) and the combination seemed to be perfect. Great combination with a 13-4 APC.
It did take about an ounce of tail weight to compensate for the 14 ounce engine but once the CG was where it belonged it was great.  Even the old ARF Hater hisself, RJ Whitely, commented after flying it that it was a very good flying airplane.
This is the airplane that I gave to Chip Hyde so he could continue practicing after he crashed his raggedy Nobler.
None of the other ARFS I've had went together as easy, or flew a well as this one.

Randy Cuberly

[Brett Buck]

rtunity to visit the factory and has many interesting stories to tell. Most of the parts are laser cut and the manufacturing (building) is done almost exclusively by women and girls working long shifts and living on the factory premises. CA is used for all construction.

  I think all of those that I have worked on are made with some sort of pink hot-melt glue. In some cases this is OK, but I have seen people peel the motor mounts out with little effort and no wood damage.

    Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

  I think all of those that I have worked on are made with some sort of pink hot-melt glue. In some cases this is OK, but I have seen people peel the motor mounts out with little effort and no wood damage.

    Brett

Yeah Brett,
I've seen that in the earlier Brodak ARFS and theTop Flite ones.  The SV11 was CA with the mounts actually glued in with Epoxy.  A couple of the R/C ARFS I've seen were much better construction than the average CL one.

Randy Cuberly

[Brett Buck]

Yeah Brett,
I've seen that in the earlier Brodak ARFS and theTop Flite ones.  The SV11 was CA with the mounts actually glued in with Epoxy.  A couple of the R/C ARFS I've seen were much better construction than the average CL one.

Randy Cuberly

  People tell me that the first batch of any of several of the various ARFs was better than the subsequent batches. I have no doubt that they could make them to any required level of quality, it's just a matter of how much they would cost. These are, generally, the same people that make both iPhones, and the stuff you find in gumball machines. The MO in this case seems to be make the prototypes and maybe the first half-container nicely, then sneak down the quality on subsequent shipments and hope the importer doesn't notice. I would expect Brodak to be aware of that and inspect accordingly. Top Flite seemed to let the second batch of Nobler ARFs through without any inspection at all, the later ones were extremely flawed, at least those I saw, and took a lot more work to get them right. Still, you managed to not spend 3 months building it, a few weeks to fix it doesn't seem all that far out of reason.

   Brett

p.s. by the way, the places where the pink stuff was properly applied at full temperature are actually quite tough. The issue seems to be where it was applied and then cooled some before assembly. I hate hot-melt in general but the few times I use it the temperature seems critical. Done correctly, the "extra-strong" type is incredibly tough and almost impossible to remove. Not very stiff but extremely tenacious .

[Dan McEntee]

   I had the engine mount on a Top Flite Score rip out in flight. Between vibration and fuel soaking, the hot melt glue let go on one side and the whole nose peeled off to the right. Thankfully the engine didn't hit anybody. The construction was all tab and slot, and these all let go, and just the fuselage side was broken. I peeled all the old glue off with my finger tips. I repaired everything with epoxy and added in a few re-enforcements, and repaired the right wing leading edge where the prop took a bite out of it. One thing I have noticed flying it since then is I now feel some typical engine vibration at the handle that I never did before. I take that as a sign of how loose and sloppy the nose was before. The hot melt glue might work OK for balsa to balsa joints but I don't think iot can really penetrate ply wood and hard woods. The T-Rex from Brodak is a good example of varying quality. I never got one, but I have heard of some serious quality issues with some and others that fell together, and if I remember correctly, John had to find another ARF factory after that.
  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

The hot melt glue might work OK for balsa to balsa joints but I don't think iot can really penetrate ply wood and hard woods.

    Clearly I haven't tested the pink stuff, since you can't get it normally. The motor mounts are a good example of a situation where you might end up running a long bead and having it cool off before assembly.

    As indifferently and as random workmanship you are likely to get from 10-year-old girls in, effectively, a sweatshop, it doesn't surprise me that it is unreliable. Its *fast* which I suppose is a requirement to get them delivered for the roughly $20 a copy they get for them (including delivery). Hot Stuff would be as fast but is so prone to running that you would likely have significant damage loss when you glued it into the jig.

      The kind you can get for hot-melt glue guns has very impressive adhesion to even non-porous surfaces if it remains hot until assembly. It's worthless if you let it cool off first.

      It's somewhat of a shame because there's no reason that you couldn't build them reliably. Make no mistake, they could build them very nicely if the price was right.

     Brett

[Howard Rush]

Make no mistake, they could build them very nicely if the price was right.

But not without somebody knowledgeable here negotiating the design requirements, a fact unappreciated by importers large as well as small.