Model Airplane News . 1976 .

[M Spencer]

RIGHT ,

Centuries back I recall ( we presume ) a small G A of the Hallmark in M. A. N. , which would have to be 76 or the 6 months preceeding .

as I recall  it had 60 , in. For the SPAN .

as its stated as variously 56 , 58 & 50 ! ( a typo for 60 ?? ) in other mags with picture , WE are trying to obtain The G A ,
as presumeably the chap had a RULER or Tape Measure .

WHY ,

" Gene Schaffer built a modified version , took it to the F.A.I.s in Europe, placed high and greatly contributed to bringing home the team championship "

Getting on to half way down on the right , there . Below.



Going from proportions , angles etc etc , and translateing them over the drg below ( now full size ) to many things match
to be entirely coincedance . Despite other ' Interpretations ' of things . 



THUS , as the M.A.N. sketch is dimensioned , Im asking anyone who has  these about that time , to have a look and
see if they can locate it .

Particularly the wing & tailplane span , hinge to hinge ? , and nose length . are of concern. even if you cant computerise the picture .
also exact length of that Big Art ST 46 type muffler would be of much use .

Angles of dangles etc & soforth transcripe from this to that . Regards . Matt Spencer .



Is Bill Simons still right side up , and accessable ? .

[wwwarbird]

 The above query(?) might as well be in Chinese. 

[Dave Harmon]

The above query(?) might as well be in Chinese. 

I turned my monitor upside down and it didn't read any better so I thought it was just me spazzing out.
I had to read something else just to verify I was not fading to black.....

[Brett Buck]

RIGHT ,

Centuries back I recall ( we presume ) a small G A of the Hallmark in M. A. N. , which would have to be 76 or the 6 months preceeding .

as I recall  it had 60 , in. For the SPAN .

as its stated as variously 56 , 58 & 50 ! ( a typo for 60 ?? ) in other mags with picture , WE are trying to obtain The G A ,
as presumeably the chap had a RULER or Tape Measure .

WHY ,

" Gene Schaffer built a modified version , took it to the F.A.I.s in Europe, placed high and greatly contributed to bringing home the team championship "

Getting on to half way down on the right , there . Below.


Going from proportions , angles etc etc , and translateing them over the drg below ( now full size ) to many things match
to be entirely coincedance . Despite other ' Interpretations ' of things . 


THUS , as the M.A.N. sketch is dimensioned , Im asking anyone who has  these about that time , to have a look and
see if they can locate it .

Particularly the wing & tailplane span , hinge to hinge ? , and nose length . are of concern. even if you cant computerise the picture .
also exact length of that Big Art ST 46 type muffler would be of much use .

Angles of dangles etc & soforth transcripe from this to that . Regards . Matt Spencer .

Is Bill Simons still right side up , and accessable ? .

   Matt, honestly, and with no malice, you really need to be a little less, er, creative with your posts, because I (and apparently everyone else) cannot make even a little bit of sense out of it. If you have heard the term "too clever by half", it appears - again, not trying to be insulting - your posts seems to be "too clever by a factor of 1000". We may all seem very dull and ordinary for you, but if you want to communicate, something is going to have to change, and it's not going to be the rest of us developing a decryptor to figure it out.

     By the way, I lied a bit above, think what you refer to as a " G A " means a "general arrangement" drawing, and perhaps the rest means you want a dimensioned drawing of the Hallmark. I think that was published in Stunt News and full-size plans may be available from PAMPA products. Bobby Hunt would know, I think he was behind the publication.

   If that is not what you meant, then sorry, but I cannot figure it out otherwise.

     Brett

[Chris McMillin]

Matt,
Three years ago the Japanese flyer Hiki built and flew a Hallmark at VSC so he should have everything you want for it. Perhaps if you contacted Kaz Manato he could put you in touch or have information himself?
Chris...

RIGHT ,

Centuries back I recall ( we presume ) a small G A of the Hallmark in M. A. N. , which would have to be 76 or the 6 months preceeding .

as I recall  it had 60 , in. For the SPAN .

as its stated as variously 56 , 58 & 50 ! ( a typo for 60 ?? ) in other mags with picture , WE are trying to obtain The G A ,
as presumeably the chap had a RULER or Tape Measure .

WHY ,

" Gene Schaffer built a modified version , took it to the F.A.I.s in Europe, placed high and greatly contributed to bringing home the team championship "

Getting on to half way down on the right , there . Below.



Going from proportions , angles etc etc , and translateing them over the drg below ( now full size ) to many things match
to be entirely coincedance . Despite other ' Interpretations ' of things . 



THUS , as the M.A.N. sketch is dimensioned , Im asking anyone who has  these about that time , to have a look and
see if they can locate it .

Particularly the wing & tailplane span , hinge to hinge ? , and nose length . are of concern. even if you cant computerise the picture .
also exact length of that Big Art ST 46 type muffler would be of much use .

Angles of dangles etc & soforth transcripe from this to that . Regards . Matt Spencer .



Is Bill Simons still right side up , and accessable ? .

[Serge_Krauss]

I love reading Bob's stuff; what a great writer/editor and contributor to the CL legacy. Thanks, Bob for the color and the history. I also like Matt's posts, but then I don't have to understand everything. Ha! Matt has produced some of the most interesting models and nibbles at the extremes of design, as well as enjoying the scale aspects. He's brought enjoyment along with occasional frustration.

SK

[Brett Buck]

I love reading Bob's stuff; what a great writer/editor and contributor to the CL legacy. Thanks, Bob for the color and the history. I also like Matt's posts, but then I don't have to understand everything. Ha! Matt has produced some of the most interesting models and nibbles at the extremes of design, as well as enjoying the scale aspects. He's brought enjoyment along with occasional frustration.

    There are a large number of "interesting" people in modeling. To be honest, based on real-life interactions and phone calls with modelers over the last 45 years (rocketry and CL stunt), I am a bit surprised that we don't have more problem communicating. It's very clear that being articulate and being worth paying attention to are two different things - we have plenty of people who clearly aren't masters of the English language who are definitely worth listening to, and a few (mercifully) who are perfectly competent in communication, but when you examine the content, you wish there was an IQ test you had to pass to talk on a phone or type things into the internet. Matt is an extreme example of the former, clearly very interesting but very difficult to decipher.

    And, just as a general observation, the sort of low-level technical communication we usually have here is definitely a skill and an art. Many people tend to try to be Michelangelo and sometimes forget or give the skill part short shrift. Recall that perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. The guys who are really exceptional magazine writers (Hunt and Dirty Dan are particular standouts, Al Rabe and Ted Fancher in the same ballpark) usually manage to convey their point AND make it interesting. But it if also very clear that being really good at model airplanes doesn't guarantee you are a good communicator.

    Brett

[john e. holliday]

Yes Matt is one of the unique ones in model aviation.  Yes Mat I will get started on your plane one of these years.  Also Bobby I want to be first on the list for your book when it is done.   I my self do not communicate too well at times and have up set a few people.  Imagine guys if we moved to the southern hemisphere like New Zealand and/or Australia would those people under stand some of our speech?   Any Matt keep it coming and you too Bobby as I do read it all.

[Gary Dowler]

   Matt, honestly, and with no malice, you really need to be a little less, er, creative with your posts, because I (and apparently everyone else) cannot make even a little bit of sense out of it. If you have heard the term "too clever by half", it appears - again, not trying to be insulting - your posts seems to be "too clever by a factor of 1000". We may all seem very dull and ordinary for you, but if you want to communicate, something is going to have to change, and it's not going to be the rest of us developing a decryptor to figure it out.

     By the way, I lied a bit above, think what you refer to as a " G A " means a "general arrangement" drawing, and perhaps the rest means you want a dimensioned drawing of the Hallmark. I think that was published in Stunt News and full-size plans may be available from PAMPA products. Bobby Hunt would know, I think he was behind the publication.

   If that is not what you meant, then sorry, but I cannot figure it out otherwise.

     Brett

Wow, I thought it was just me and some mental impairment that was keeping me from understanding a word of that post. I guess it wasn't just me..... whew, I feel better now!! Lol

[Steve Thompson]

I like Matt's contributions here, particularly the pictures he comes up with.

I have never failed to understand him.  You just gotta channel your inner Yoda.

[Robert Zambelli]

Bob Hunt Wrote: "Gene flew the Hallmark in the 1977 Team Trails in Fort Gillem, GA the next year. He missed making the team that year. Little did any of us know that Gene’s last flight at that contest was the last time he would ever fly. Gene deserved a better fate in CL Stunt than the one he got. I have never seen a better “stick man” than Gene…".

I met Gene in 1974 as I recall, but never saw him again.
He was an incredible flyer.
What happened? Why was the Fort Gillem flight his last?
What "fate" did he get?

Bob Z.

[Fredvon4]

Not intending to bust Matt Spencer out but I will

I had written something in a thread on a engine I had... He PMed me and I am old enough to NOT remember my "IN passing post" about the engine

His quirky unique writing style totally flummoxed me

eventually we got it sorted and it was actually funny in a sick kind of way

Some days, if the topic interest me I try hard to decipher what Matt said.... other times ... like some other posters here on SH.  I just move to the next topic

[FLOYD CARTER]

The original post was written by someone who had been promoted to ADMIRAL!  This is a slightly higher rank than Uncle Sam ever bestowed on me.  I must assume that anyone having Admiral rank would have something important to say.

[wwwarbird]

   Matt, honestly, and with no malice, you really need to be a little less, er, creative with your posts, because I (and apparently everyone else) cannot make even a little bit of sense out of it. If you have heard the term "too clever by half", it appears - again, not trying to be insulting - your posts seems to be "too clever by a factor of 1000". We may all seem very dull and ordinary for you, but if you want to communicate, something is going to have to change, and it's not going to be the rest of us developing a decryptor to figure it out.

 Thank you Brett, well put and something I've also tried to convey to Matt before. Matt's posts always appear interesting but all I can ever do is enjoy the photos, very rarely being able to make any sense of the rest.

[M Spencer]

Right, well then . Where were we . . . .

YES , the ' Little Sketch / General Arangement , dimensioned Drg. is what I am after / wish to VIEW .

The Scorpio There has a 11 1/2 - Root , 9 1/2 Tip Chord ( Mainplane not inc flaps )

The Remark quoted , re Schaffer / Scorpio Variant = Hallmark , depending on taken literally - or more broadly . . .

Using about TEN differant pictures of the Hallmark , pencils , rules , grids etc . . . essentially
throw onn a 3/4 top block fwd , aft of canopy the rear deck as dead on ( minus dorsal fillet )
The Rudder is the exact same height , lower sides angle matches through to engine bay , etc etc .

as an aside , B ill seems to have slipped with the template / dimension at the wing root ,
giving about 1/32 drop / assymetry - on the templates And Fuse Side View .
But as it was drawn from a template ? or with a curve , it dials back in , once figured .
Also the root template matches the fuse side , not the C/L . In Plan .
Then if the TE was 1/4 not 3/8 , the plan matches templates .
With 6 & 8 inch to spar from rear , and 3 in spar to L E . bar on the curve the 3 in is inner edges .
As He shows 3" sheet . You'd probly need the plan in front of you to follow this .

As for ' getting to com-plicated 

BUT , , The Idea is to get a EXACT plan . If Simons Statement is correct ,
from here , as from Bob's Articals / Writeings , Simons & Schaefer were good mates / buddies , at the Time  -
Joint / Cross Development seem not unusual or unlikely . Such as Shareing Drawings .

AS STATED , give the Scopio Drg a does of Twink , throw the canopy at T E , Round The Rudder , and it matches .
Whereas the PAMPA one seems decidedly out . half the rudder hight , canopy off etc .

Apparently the ORIGINAL AEROPLANE ( Hallmark ) Still Exists , but havnt got a reply from aledged Holder of it .

THUS any FACTUAL information , such as are those wing letters std 2 1/4 in tall , or 2 1/2 . or 2 ,
using prportions angles etc , base dimensions can be figured . particularly as most got to 1/2" redilly , 1/4 more rarely , 1/8 more so still .
So ' things start to emerge ' archeologically    once a few things are established .

==================================================================================

Id aleways been under the impresion it was 60 span , 60 Oz. the max a ST 46 would comfortably carry .
( Tho mine doesnt mind 65 Oz and 64 span , in the wind it does . or wont . )

SO The Drawing I recall would save a awfull lot of conjecture .

Bob ( Hunt ) Do you carry notebooks , or have labled templates - tho presuming the name came AFTER construction

the likelyhood of the template having Hallmark postscribed would mean notable attention to order . 
no offence intended .

Theres a few personal recollections with individuals ' leaping out of the ethers ' in ' the dream time ' back then regarding this plane ,

hence the inclination to do one ' Authentic .'
                                              ------------

As the Sketch in M A N is the only reasonably dimensioned eveidance im aware of available , Ve Vish to get to zee bottom of zee case ! 

 

p.s. will try post a photo of the amended plan tomorrow, but the camera seems to go over the 1000 pixle thing . and controls not
 Voice ACTIVATED .

[M Spencer]

The Differances  from this pampa plan Built Version should be obvious to the untrained eye .



Theres a replicer MV up the road , and Egli Vin . But M V was M V , not somones shed . Vincents are another story .
many parts ommisions and distortions in regard to this .



I worked for the was Kiwi H R D Vincent importer . Who went to the trouble of two weeks to 2 am building this engine .
After having personally had the Heads , Cams , Mag & Carbs built under his beady eye in England .
the chap who checked the points & tappets , did not ' tune the engine ' or did he .

To Claim He Did was Absurd, and an insult to Perry . still had the 50 Q M Hydroplane motor , and another we overhauled
in a stock wideline Dommie with deep red wine & cream 60s custom paint , back in 81 .

Matt,
Three years ago the Japanese flyer Hiki built and flew a Hallmark at VSC so he should have everything you want for it. Perhaps if you contacted Kaz Manato he could put you in touch or have information himself?
Chris...

Thanks .Yep , think He is over here for the Nats , Mar/April .

However I do not believe the current PAMPA plan actually represents the model in the photograph acurately !  ( Duck for cover Icon . )

Theyre welcome to this , when done .( from full size Scorpio plan . Yep Gemini is predecesor . but tossed it -wont digress There . )

Yep G. A. in the Colonies has usually refered to General Arrangement . except perhaps to Botanists  & Paleontologists .

Yep John , Figured where That Drg. ( Mine ) is Out .  Doing one at 65 for the ST 66/76 . The Fuse is ' on the shelf '
all jigged staraight while the epoxy cures . Released on my return.
The Sides are scored TE to Tail LE .  VERTICAL* for the inch or so above  . Gonna throw awl the stiff stuff in as shown for Sailing Weather .
* The Formers Sides are parrallel / Vertical there . sorta like a T/R Crutch . Above the Wing Ceterline .


SO ANYONE WITH ANY PHOTOGRAPHS OF ANYWHERE ON / OF the HALLMARK , or Authenticated Documentary Data , please lemme know .

Willseeifthe picture willgoontomorrow . 

from a anonymous source .

Guys like Scott (?) Elliot, Bill Hummel, Windy and a few others worked on the Hallmark plan from Schaffer's drawings and his existing model

So Where is it , And What Info .

Needs to be Specific to Hallmark , or where is the Genuine Aeroplane , please .

[Joseph Daly]

Bob,
i just love to read your stories about Gene, Billy, and yourself. For me it really helps understand the history of stunt and how it has evolved over time. I cant wait till your book comes out!
I was looking through some pictures I got from Andy Lee and of course there is a picture of the Hallmark and Gene's Genesis.

Thanks for all that you do!
Joe 

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello. Many Thanks to Bob Hunt and Matt Spencer for the interesting read.
I have more to learn then most about the history of stunt flying but it sure is a rich history!

Got me looking back and enjoyed this old but relevant post too :
https://stunthanger.com/smf/as-time-goes-bye/lets-talk-about-gene-schaffer-today-photos-by-les-mcdonald/msg468056/#msg468056

When a teenager I built Bob' Genesis with a ST40S (and destroyed 3 flights latter!) and have built many models since inspired by Matt's Stunt twins and semi scale stunt models .

Thanks Again Gerald 

[M Spencer]

Er,

Dorsals Eradicated , Lower block Flat under moved Fwd . Fin Hight Matches .

[M Spencer]

um,

Cord is drawn as 11 1/2 & 9 1/2 , hinge to hinge 16 .

Im thinking it may be 11 , 9, & 16 1/2 .

Looks like his ruler slipped down 1/32 ( last thing, late at night ? ) on the Airfoil & Template ,
Same Curve & neutralising , I Think , gets it how intended .
Plus I dont think three inck block tips are the go , when 1/2 or 3/4 sheet end caps would do the trick .

Thats Where its at , just now . The Camera decided to work today  No Mention of the operator, thank you . 

[M Spencer]

The original post was written by someone who had been promoted to ADMIRAL!  This is a slightly higher rank than Uncle Sam ever bestowed on me.  I must assume that anyone having Admiral rank would have something important to say.

And THIS is CANBERRA . ( Theyre on a Visit to You , at this Moment . ) .



Sunrise, sunset , sweetly crow the harmonious tones of the dulcette Cockatoos. 

[M Spencer]

Thanks V Much Joseph , Joe! . Mr Daly .



Can get the Flap Ratio pretty Much , from THIS , and maybe the rear deck X Section at the cockpit . One more notch on the belt . 

[M Spencer]

 :)I KNOW !

Its THIS BIG . 



50/50 Drg. was in this one . If its not it must be in another . 
Could even be Model Builder, etc, etc . But recal seeing in loaner magazine baack in 76 . So one above'as unlikely . 

[Tom Niebuhr]

That is great news thanks to John Duncan. Haven't seen him in many moons. Please say hello.

It will be nice to see accurate plans for the Stunt Machine and the Hallmark