Author Topic: Thoughts on a new class above expert, the masters (Read 3355 times)

Greg Howie · « **on:** August 22, 2009, 03:19:42 PM »

I was wondering in there would be any insterst in having one more class for the competitions . For argument sake lets call it the masters class. This class would be created so all the constants that most people would never be able to beat could fly in there own class. I know that this wouldn't work at a local level. But say at the VSC or brodaks you don't stand a chance of breaking in to the top 10 at all. The best most can do is 20Th place . I think these guys need there own class to compeat in , lets bump them up to the masters so many stand a chance of doing better than last place . I mean what is the motivation to be in the top class at this point .

Thanks again

Bill Morell · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2009, 04:21:33 PM »

Beating a dead horse. This has been discussed many times. Do a search on here or SSW.

RC Storick · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2009, 06:57:58 PM »

Quote from: stringjobs on August 22, 2009, 03:19:42 PM

I was wondering in there would be any insterst in having one more class for the competitions . For argument sake lets call it the masters class. This class would be created so all the constants that most people would never be able to beat could fly in there own class. I know that this wouldn't work at a local level. But say at the VSC or brodaks you don't stand a chance of breaking in to the top 10 at all. The best most can do is 20Th place . I think these guys need there own class to compeat in , lets bump them up to the masters so many stand a chance of doing better than last place . I mean what is the motivation to be in the top class at this point .

Thanks again

Actually we should go back to the way the event was designed. Jr,Sr.Open. In the society were everyones a winner how do you know who won if there are no loosers. In Little league where everyone gets a trophy who really won?

Mike Keville · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2009, 07:12:32 PM »

Quote from: Robert Storick on August 22, 2009, 06:57:58 PM

In Little league where everyone gets a trophy who really won?

===============================================================

Bingo! Really helps prepare 'em for REAL life, doesn't it?

Some win, some don't. Deal with it, and get used to it.

Doug Moon · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2009, 07:22:26 PM »

Quote from: Robert Storick on August 22, 2009, 06:57:58 PM

Actually we should go back to the way the event was designed. Jr,Sr.Open. In the society were everyones a winner how do you know who won if there are no looses. In Little league where everyone gets a trophy who really won?

Uh, little league world series has a winner and the loser is on display on ESPN.

According to many jr sr open is what caused the decline in the first place. Now you want to go back.

Besides in the 4 classes we have if there are more the 4 entrants in the whole contest then everyone doesnt get a first place trophy. Pretty common in stunt today. I dont see the point.

I also dont think we need a masters class. Expert is just that, the top of the food chain. Sure it is darn hard to win in expert but then again shouldnt it be?

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2009, 07:55:00 PM »

Quote from: Mike Keville on August 22, 2009, 07:12:32 PM

===============================================================

Bingo! Really helps prepare 'em for REAL life, doesn't it?

Some win, some don't. Deal with it, and get used to it.

One of the sad commentaries on contemporary American life.

Considering it is the PAMPA Skill classes that have contributed to the "renaissance" of US PA, and what does that tell you?

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2009, 07:58:44 PM »

So now that I got that out of my system, my own belief is that maybe in 2010 we should allow a "do-over".

Let everyone re-calibrate themselves to the class (Int-Adv-Exp) that they now think they belong in. My own guess is that most of us should take one step back. That would alleviate some of the crowding you see in Expert. And Expert should stay Expert.

peabody · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2009, 08:57:34 PM »

I see Master as a possibility to obtain more judges, and wonder if any of the "anti-Masters" are CDs?

Brett Buck · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2009, 09:27:25 PM »

Quote from: peabody on August 22, 2009, 08:57:34 PM

I see Master as a possibility to obtain more judges, and wonder if any of the "anti-Masters" are CDs?

And here we go again - now the "anti-Masters" are bad people making the CD job harder. Never mind that under your concept, outside of California, your new class results in a contest for 1 person, and makes the CD job marginally harder.

I supposed this is a rhetorical question, but do you find it impossible to deal with any issue on the merits? It's always demonizing those who don't agree, name-calling, or some form "class warfare"?

Brett

Brett Buck · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2009, 09:33:15 PM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on August 22, 2009, 07:58:44 PM

So now that I got that out of my system, my own belief is that maybe in 2010 we should allow a "do-over".

Let everyone re-calibrate themselves to the class (Int-Adv-Exp) that they now think they belong in. My own guess is that most of us should take one step back. That would alleviate some of the crowding you see in Expert. And Expert should stay Expert.

That's about what my suggestion was a few years ago, presuming you wanted to do anything at all. I think this is a pretty predictable consequence of adopting the limited beginner pattern, as opposed to 4 classes of regular stunt as it was originally. What I see in Intermediate and Advanced as far as flying quality goes is about what you used to have in Beginner and Intermediate.

The original concept for Master's class was ridiculous - had to have made the Top 5 or the FAI team in the last 5 years. A quick survey of the recent results would mean that this was a class for about 7-8 people for the entire country, and at many local contests no one would qualify.

Brett

Randy Powell · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2009, 12:36:56 AM »

Oh, I don't know. I'd rather lose to Brett than an Advanced flyer. I fly Expert and have never won a contest at any level (well, that's not true, I won classic once). I like it were I am.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2009, 01:33:29 PM »

Quote from: Robert Storick on August 22, 2009, 06:57:58 PM

Actually we should go back to the way the event was designed. Jr,Sr.Open. In the society were everyones a winner how do you know who won if there are no loosers. In Little league where everyone gets a trophy who really won?

I agree. However, what we have now works fine. People who like skill classes have skill classes. Folks like us who want to see how we do against the top guys can just enter Expert. They let anybody fly Expert who wants to. My objection is only with the name of the class. "Expert" implies that you know a lot about stunt. I don't know a lot about stunt. Every day, I find new things about stunt I don't know about.

Garf · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2009, 01:42:50 PM »

A masters class sounds good to me. But, what do I know. I've only been at this for 45 years.

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2009, 03:38:25 PM »

Bleck... last thing stunt needs is another "class".

Maybe change the pattern... at least there might be a reason to create updated designs. We need to look forward, not back.

phil c · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2009, 03:55:40 PM »

It's really hard to find any of the current top fliers who want to change the pattern in any way, even to eliminate the contradictions and ambiguities introduced by ill-thought out rules changes.

RC Storick · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2009, 06:51:30 PM »

Well that didn't last long! FCM had its first master class contest today. I won expert and I am now mandatory moved to Master..??

RC Storick · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2009, 06:54:21 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on August 22, 2009, 09:33:15 PM

The original concept for Master's class was ridiculous - had to have made the Top 5 or the FAI team in the last 5 years. A quick survey of the recent results would mean that this was a class for about 7-8 people for the entire country, and at many local contests no one would qualify.

Brett

Or at least at the FCM win in expert. I have the master certificate that allows me to fly with the big boys..

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2009, 07:09:24 PM »

Quote from: Robert Storick on August 23, 2009, 06:54:21 PM

Or at least at the FCM win in expert. I have the master certificate that allows me to fly with the big boys..

Way to go Master Sparky!

peabody · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2009, 03:43:58 AM »

Actually, my original thought was for the guys that flew for the Walker Cup as Open and for the US Team members or alternates....for the last TEN years.....

I like the definition that Allen created....although I would allow voluntary inclusion, too....

Matt Colan · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2009, 06:57:11 AM »

The problem with going back to Junior, Senior, Open is that there are very few juniors and seniors in this event now, unless we change the junior class to anyone under 62, right Bill Hummel

Howard Rush · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2009, 08:23:17 AM »

Another place where the rolling cutoff should apply.

Jerry Leuty · « **Reply #21 on:** August 24, 2009, 09:32:35 AM »

I personally like the idea of 'updating' the PA pattern. I believe that the Master's class should be earned by setting a winning point standard that the top experts achieve to. Brodak's, VSC, were started with the intent of personal enjoyment. If you want your name in the record books then the Nats are the place for you. Competition is fun and for most of us it should be kept that way. I personally will never get out of the Intermediate class. I am getting too old and the hand is just not as steady as it once was. With that thought perhaps some thought might given to doing classes at VSC and Brodak's. I attended VSC this past spring and finished 3 rd. from the bottom right in front of one who did not fly and a crash. The trip probably cost me a $1000 in gas, eats, and the RV park but I went back home with a smile on my face and I had fun. At this later stage in life isn't the enjoyment of good friends, food, and camaraderie more important than getting another plaque? For me the retired life is all about having fun again similar to when I was a kid. This is the first summer in 50 years that I have enjoyed the summer. Clear skies, warm temps., light breezes.............it don't get no better than this in north Texas.

Jerry

Greg Howie · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:36:06 AM »

. One more qualification to be in the Masters class is that you must build your own design . . you cant build someones design