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Author Topic: Military Flying boats  (Read 6062 times)

Offline W.D. Roland

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Offline louie klein

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 05:41:07 AM »
WOW!!! I would like one of them to fly and find the fish, land and catch'em, throw them into the prop for cleaning and I'm outa here!  LL~ LL~---LOUIE

Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 07:08:44 AM »
 VD~These things are not to be taken lightly. The attack in Yemen is a good example. They are probably stealthy and therefore could probably make a successful attack. They would be very effective against oil Tankers. That's my two cents.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 10:20:40 AM »
Build a model of one?

I can see a number of reasons that Iran would build these.  They could just be for internal propaganda, something that'll impress the citizenry and keep the crazies in power for a while longer.  They may well be effective counter-insurgency weapons, particularly if they get upgraded engines so they can fly a bit higher.  They'd be good for attacking and/or intimidating neighbors who may not have that many high-tech weapons of their own.  And finally, they could be used to attack US and other western interests, although if Iran does so openly then it's even crazier than I think it is.
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Offline Scott Jenkins

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 11:09:45 AM »
Guys,
The phalynx weapons system could take on 20 of these in a matter of minutes, no contest when the system normally starts shooting at incoming missles traveling at the speed of sound at more that a mile away those flying boats would be toast before they get close enough to do harm to a military ship equipped with a weapons system such as this. 

Scott
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FAI F2C VOLUME 2 SECTION 4, 4.3.7
m) During the refuelling and the restart of the motor, and until the time when he releases the model aircraft, the mechanic must keep the model aircraft in contact with the ground by at least one point and with the centre line outside the flight circle. During that time the pilot must be crouching or sitting inside the centre circle. He keeps one hand on the ground and his handle and his lines as close to the ground as defined by the F2C panel of judges until the model aircraft starts again.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 11:30:39 AM »
Guys,
The phalynx weapons system could take on 20 of these in a matter of minutes, no contest when the system normally starts shooting at incoming missles traveling at the speed of sound at more that a mile away those flying boats would be toast before they get close enough to do harm to a military ship equipped with a weapons system such as this. 
Assuming, of course, that it was turned on.
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Offline Neville Legg

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2010, 12:59:33 PM »
They are ground effect vehicles designed by Dr Alexander Lippisch, the talented German aerodynamicist, who designed many strange aircraft during WW2, including (I believe!) The ME 163 rocket powered flying wing! This ground effect aircraft/vehicle was an experimental craft, made from wood and fabric, and powered by about 65hp engine ;D There was a very good article in the Aero Modeller back in the 70's, with a 3 view drawing on this very craft, looks like a canoe with wings ;D I don't think we have much to fear? LL~

Cheers    Neville  
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 02:56:52 PM by Neville Legg »
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2010, 01:03:12 PM »
Best use would be for giving political leaders family and friends joy rides.

Be cool to ski behind!


David
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Offline Bill Heher

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2010, 01:46:02 PM »
a5" shell fired into the water infront of one or more of these flimsy , open cockpit, slow moving " Weapons Systems" would raise a column of water that would either
a. - swamp / collaspe / flip it out of control, or
b.- make the pilot deviate from his attack course and give a side profile to target, or
c. - cause the pilot to wet himself - remove his hands from the controls as he begs his favorite divinity for protection- also resulting in a crash / deviation from course.

I bet a good R/C combat flier could take one out with a .40 sized pylon racer, us C/L guys would have a bit tougher time!
Bill Heher
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Offline Steven Kientz

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2010, 03:24:03 PM »
I think the A-10 pilots would love to go up against these POS. Can you imagine the the screaming on the Iranian military radios? 20 mil cannons would make short work of those, like that exhaust poisoned hillbilly on the eastwood movie'Thunderbolt and Lightfoot".

Steve
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2010, 04:38:27 PM »
Quote from: Bill Heher
I bet a good R/C combat flier could take one out with a .40 sized pylon racer, us C/L guys would have a bit tougher time!
[/quote

I dissagree :##
C/L combat for last defense close up work.
Did you know you can run and fly a combat plane at the same time?

When YOUNG I chased Tommy across the flying field(4 circles) for throwing sticks at me while I was flying.
 I stayed well above him on passes and He never threw another stick .
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Offline Bill Barber

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2010, 05:25:15 PM »
      I have to agree with Ty  , they look like their made out of fiberglass & wood so the radar signature would be very low . Multiple flying boats coming in from different directions could be a significant threat . They first attack on the Bismark was very slow flying  Fairy Firefly torpedo bombers and they were able to jam the rudder. The AA guns on the Bismark were set up to put a lead on faster planes and they couldn't compensate for the slower Firefly's .   It's want the Defense Dept. calls an  asymmetric attack.
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Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2010, 06:49:59 PM »
Makes you wish Navy ships still had a few of the 20mm Oerlikon cannons or 40mm Bofors.  Optically aimed and manually fired, they might be just the ticket against stuff like that.

I have to admit though, I'd love to have one of those to motor up and down the beach and scope out the ladies. y1
Steve

Offline Neville Legg

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2010, 01:33:16 AM »
Bill, sorry to be so pedantic, it was the Fairy Swordfish bi-plane that attacked the Bismarck, and if you've ever seen a Swordfish fly, you'll know how painfully slow they are! You could probably bring one down with a shotgun! It was almost a suicide mission on the part of the Fleet Air Arm, as most of the aircraft didn't return.
I found the article in the Aero Modeler, (September 1973) and the design was called the Lippisch X113 aerofoil boat, and the project was started way back in 1962! The power for the prototype was only 48hp. I don't have a scanner at the moment, otherwise I put the article and drawing on here, so you could all build one! ;D

Cheers  Neville  
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Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2010, 04:43:47 AM »
I think the best defense against these things would be a few dozen 50 cals (ma deuce) for night time they would also need  search lights. Still a tactical attack would still be a success. But for the danger our sailors would have fun shooting these up. Say a dozen of these things attacking both sides at once would be very hard to defend. They would be useless against a battleship or cruiser but I think Ty knows the ships that could be damaged by these water scooters. I am willing to suffer higher gas prices so that we can boycott the Persian Gulf oil countries. we really need a newstronger leader it seems to me.
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2010, 05:45:30 AM »
I agree with Chuck. Enough of them coming at a "tin can" could overwhelm it's defenses, which are not set up for slow moving (relatively speaking) small, multiple targets.  A 250 pound bomb or explosive devise would tear the sides out of a Destroyer and sink it or disable it for a long time. Having served on four Destroyers and one Escort, I know how weak they are as to mines/torpedoes.  However, two DD's working together could blow about 20 out of the water given enough warning.  Weather, sea state, time of day would have a big affect on ljust how successful they could be.  Plus these may only be the first strp jof larger and faster and more deadly systems. Lots of Russian influence there, plus they look like an EAA homebuilt that I saw in Mechanix Illustrated/Popular Science a few years back. Hmmm. D>K

Don't kid yourself...if they weren't hit by two RAM missiles each (which they would be), the 20MM Phalanx guns would rip them apart like paper toys at about 2500 meters away.  The chances of something like this getting through to a modern warship are absolutely NIL.  They are undoubtedly intended to attack unarmed merchant vessels like oil tankers or cruise ships.  That's much more in keeping with the Muslim fanatics way of warfare anyway.  They almost never openly attack a warship anymore.  They've learned that they can't be very succesful with something that fights back.  Civilians, especially women and children are much more to their liking...just ask the Israelis.
A modern Destroyer (tin can) is a very formidable target..and they seldom operate alone.
Believe me ( this is my profession) boats like these could do serious damage to an unarmed merchant vessel not to a modern warship.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2010, 06:13:06 AM »
Where would the A10s launch from?  The Phalanx has limited ammo. The radar signature of these things might well be minimal and the 5 inch is controlled by radar or from a 20 power lens TV camera high on the mast. The new mounts do not have anyone inside them. So, a low radar signature, coming in slow, not at missle speed, would fool the radar if it even picked it up. How good is the man on the scope and how tired is he. Guys, the Cole was hit by a large row boat and they were on alert.  Do NOT underestimate crazies. Remember the Kamakazi raids? The Navy lost more ships and men in the Okinawa invasion than any other battle in WW2. Iran is led by a real nut job. I assume you have seen the news of his visit to the UN??
If any of you have been on a gun shoot for surface targets, remember the Firefish target boats?? Very, very hard to lock onto let alone hit.  And we knew when and where they were coming from.
 H^^



Ty,
What you say had a lot of merit about 25-30 years ago. Pretty serious advances in technology of target detection and IR imaging have taken place since then.  The lessons of the past that everyone here seems to keep mentioning (some as far back as WW2),were taken very seriously especially with the development of the french wave skipper missiles of the 80's etc. (remember Argentina).  Modern target detection systems pretty much cover the spectrum of size and speed now.
Incidentally, Phalanx guns don't have "limited" ammo supplies anymore.  These boats were not built to go against warships they're intended for soft targets and as mentioned before to impress the ignorant populace of Iran that mostly believe that Iran is truly a World power.  Iran's only real threat to the world is in obtaining neuclear weapons and that's the very thing our current government is doing absolutely nothing about.  One has to wonder why...seems that they might welcome the chaos brought on by a nuclear attack on the US.  That would most certainly allow an establishment of military control over the civilian populace and bring about the change the progressives so urgently seem to desire.  Think that's crazy?  Read the history of the socialist takeovers in other major countries.  It's always been preceeded by some major military and economic threat that was usually created by the sitting government.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline louie klein

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2010, 06:53:19 AM »
I agree with Bill's list, C: especially. They will not fly when full of crap and wee wee and that will be at the sound of the first shot!  ;D #^ H^^ :## ---LOUIE

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2010, 08:46:40 AM »
Is this where the RC guys got the idea for their foamy flying hydroplane?   In fact the video looks like it has been doctored a bit.  To me anyway. H^^
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Offline Bill Barber

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2010, 08:48:34 AM »
Bill, sorry to be so pedantic, it was the Fairy Swordfish bi-plane that attacked the Bismarck, and if you've ever seen a Swordfish fly, you'll know how painfully slow they are! You could probably bring one down with a shotgun! It was almost a suicide mission on the part of the Fleet Air Arm, as most of the aircraft didn't return.
I found the article in the Aero Modeler, (September 1973) and the design was called the Lippisch X113 aerofoil boat, and the project was started way back in 1962! The power for the prototype was only 48hp. I don't have a scanner at the moment, otherwise I put the article and drawing on here, so you could all build one! ;D

Cheers  Neville  
   

  Thanks Neville , after posting I thought I had the wrong name !
     Bill
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2010, 01:49:24 PM »
Here's some Lippisch patent information and something from EAA's Sport Aviation:

His ground-effect patents include these:

#3,190,582, 6/22/65 (1/2/64) (pictured)
#3,627,23512/14/71 (12/3/69)
#3,661,111 (5/9/72)
#3,830,179 (6/20/72)
#3,830,448 (6/19/72)

These seem to be for variants of his X-112, which flew back in in Fall/1963.

That one is illustrated in two Sport Aviation articles (both pictured below):

Hardie, 9/73, p.19
Anon., 4/74, p.31

The second article remarks how the "new" Russian vehicle was a very close copy of the German X-113Am, which was a Lippisch design.

Each article shows the X-112 hanging in the former EAA Museum in Hales Corners Wisconsin, where I also photographed it not long before the move to Oshkosh. His original stick-and-tissue "Aerodyne" model was also there on the floor. Lippish did design the Me-163 and Me 263, as well as many other successful and less than successful tailless planes in design series. That included the DM-1 glider which, unlike his successful powered "Delta I" of 1931, was a true delta that was tested by him and later NACA, determining that deltas needed sharp leading edges. As a consultant, he helped develope this into the Convair XF-92A of 1948. The Delta Dagger proceeded from these, with help from Whitcomb to get it supersonic, with his "area rule", to which Lippisch was said to have responded, "Gentleman, a genius", or something close. Lots of people forget that Lippisch was a leader in the German glider development of the 1920's and into the 1930's with high performance standard designs. He delivered a very informative address on his progress to the British Royal Aeronautical Society in 1931. He was fiery, but very generous with information that was not proprietory to country or employers. He wrote booklets and contributed articles and information to modelers post war - used to speak at Oshkosh before his death in 1976.

Popular Science ran a cover story on the X-114 12/77, and something called the "Flarecraft" in 4/92 (70 mph on 40 hp).

I'm sure the intent of this design was for efficient water transport, rather than offensive weaponry. He wasn't at all ignorant or whimsical. Ground effect would give aircraft speeds on low h.p., but it certaily could be easily dealt with from above.

SK

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2010, 03:34:01 AM »
Iran also has the Saeqeh fighter plane that eats F/A-18's for snacks.



Wikipedia does not reveal all its awsome capabilities in detail...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Saeqeh

"similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable and has been manufactured domestically"
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/saeqeh.htm
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2010, 05:49:13 PM »
I seriously doubt this aircraft can eat an F-18 super hornet. Could you please define EAT? None of the aircraft that the US has engaged in the far east have offered a serious threat to any of our fighters. The little aircraft you show looks like a T=38 Falcon and also a Northrup aircraft that was entered in fly off com petions held for fighters for contracts. It did not win. Further what does this have to do with a flying boat?
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2010, 06:03:49 PM »
Get serious!  I'm with Chuck on this one.  It's not the machine....it's the man (or woman) in the cockpit.  Iranians, or anyone else, wouldn't last long against US Navy/Marine---or Israeli---pilots.

This lightweight F-5/T-38 knockoff with twin fins wouldn't last two minutes against REAL fighter pilots.  You've got to feel sorry for the poor slobs flying them.....as well as that little banty-rooster Ahmadinijad (or whatever his name is) who seems to think he's on a par with the Western world.
FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2010, 05:19:20 AM »
Should I have added some smilies to my post about the Saeqeh?

 :)  ;D  8)  :o  n~  :)!  ;)
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Military Flying boats
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2010, 09:19:50 AM »
You guys have fogotten about the Libyan air force that jumped our Navy/Marine pilots over the Mediteranian.  I think it was two of ours against five of them, might have been four.  Anyway our two pilots landed back on deck with no harm, while the Libyans went feeding the creatures of the sea.  I know we are not supposed to have politics here, but, I wish the government let our mlitary do what they do best.  Our young eople shouldn't be getting hurt because of some political rule. n1 n1 n1 
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