Methanol Test

[Dan McEntee]

    A quick question for all the chemical people out there. Is there a quick test to use on methanol to see if it's viable for making model fuel?  I have a line on 55 gallon drum that came from a reputable chemical supply house here and can get it for free. That makes it worth getting and doing some testing. The easiest way I know would be to mix a quart of 5% all castor fuel and test run it in a Fox .35 or even an LA.25 and compare it to a jug on known good fuel which I have. I'm guessing that a specific gravity test would tell if it had any water accumulated in it?? It's been stored in a garage for quite a while but for free, I think it's worth a gamble to look into it.

  Thanks in advance,
   Dan McEntee

[Dave_Trible]

Dan I'd be happy to test about 15 or 20 gallons of that for you........just offering.    10 or 15?........


Dave

[Brett Buck]

Dan I'd be happy to test about 15 or 20 gallons of that for you..

  That's what is so nice about stunt, everyone wants to help everyone else out of the goodness of their hearts.
     
    Brett

[Dave_Trible]

  That's what is so nice about stunt, everyone wants to help everyone else out of the goodness of their hearts.
     
    Brett

Here to serve…

Dave

[Dan McEntee]

  That's what is so nice about stunt, everyone wants to help everyone else out of the goodness of their hearts.
     
    Brett

     Well, one thig I'm considering is that if it's good stuff, I would never use it all. , considering what I have on hand in in mixed fuel and fixings for mixing with the VP 50/50 product. My flying buddy Mark Hughes, when he's not flying electric, loves his big bore engines, ST.60s, PA engines of various sizes, and RoJett .67, so he uses 7 to 8 ounces each flight. I've been flying my smaller stuff while rehabbing a knee and just figuring out old age and the need for new and better foot work!! He'll get some of it, If I see the need to disburse any of it I will put the word out, But first things first!! Free makes it worth some time to go investigate it. I just got back from checking on a secure place to store the barrel if it check out OK. It's been sitting a long time but if the barrel is full, and closed tight, it could still be good. I think I'll try to light off a small sample and see if it burns at all. If it burns, then it could probably be used as camp stove or lantern fuel. If it burns I'll mix up a quart of fuel and try it in an engine that I know is already 5% nitro and runs at a certain RPM by tachometer. If this stuff runs, and gets anywhere near what the known good fuel runs, I'll consider it good and proceed with getting it home. Stay tuned for further development as they become available after that!!
    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[bill bischoff]

disregard

[Howard Rush]

I went through this several years ago.  I think the best way to find water content is to get a 100 ml volumetric flask and a good digital scale (cheap these days) and weigh it.  Assume that water is the impurity and look for a table of density vs. water content.  As I remember, you can't assume that A ml of methanol and B ml of water make A+B ml of mixture, hence the table.  That said, how much water is too much?

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Dan,

If you have a line on VP products, you might consider asking your rep for 10 empty five gallon pails for transport.  55 gallon drums are a pain.

Best estimate is that it is good.  Yes, test the 5% nitro with castor quart.  Easy enough and requires no new tools or methods.

Peter

[Motorman]

Is the drum full with original seal? One quick test is to put some in a bottle cap and see if you can light it up. Also if it's discolored it's usually no good.

MM

[Paul Smith]

I went through this several years ago.  I think the best way to find water content is to get a 100 ml volumetric flask and a good digital scale (cheap these days) and weigh it.  Assume that water is the impurity and look for a table of density vs. water content.  As I remember, you can't assume that A ml of methanol and B ml of water make A+B ml of mixture, hence the table.  That said, how much water is too much?

Good idea, but,
Water is 1 gram per mL and methanol is .79 gram per mL.  If the 55 gallon drum is full and sealed, I don't see how a damaging amount of water could have gotten into it.  If it is heavily "watered" the specific gravity would be something over .79 grams per mL.  You would need one heck of a precise lab to effectively run that test.

Methanol is the least expensive component of fuel.  Even it the meth is free, you probably can't beat the price of buying fuel from the accepted source.

[Dan McEntee]

Methanol is the least expensive component of fuel.  Even it the meth is free, you probably can't beat the price of buying fuel from the accepted source.

      This is the main reason why I'm going to look into this. If there was a close by acceptable source for fuel I wouldn't be making this effort. None of the current fuel producers is close enough to drive to and pick up fuel on short order. Local hobby shops carry Morgan fuels, and I have used them in the past, but I find that while they run OK, not quite the same as the SIG I am used to.  Towards the end of their run in Montezuma, we used to make a run up there just to pick up fuel when it was available after the planneddemic. Every place else will have to ship and cost just gets out of hand, well beyond what I can afford. I resorted to mixing my own with the VP 50/50 mix and that has worked well. I only have to store to containers for the main fixins' . If I was still working and didn't have the extra time, I probably would not mess with it, but I think this is worth the effort and will not be that difficult to pick up and transport.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Howard Rush]

You would need one heck of a precise lab to effectively run that test.

Methanol is the least expensive component of fuel. 

I think I convinced myself at the time that the method I proposed was sufficiently accurate. I don’t care anymore, having kicked my methanol habit, so I leave the analysis to others.

Your second point was good. If you don’t have a reliable methanol source, get it from a scientific-chemical supplier. Reagent grade methanol is pretty dry.

[Dave Moritz]

Dan

I mix my own and always try to get M-1 methanol.

Dave…

[Steve Thompson]

I have recycled Ethanol for laboratory use using expensive UL listed distillers and also janky equipment I didn't trust anyone else to use.

Methanol boils at about 150F whereas Ethanol boils around 170F. 

A relatively simple setup using a recirculating "water bath heater" set a few degrees above boiling point works really nice and leaves behind water and other impurities.  A small set up would do 2.5 gallons in about 6 hours.

Reagent Ethanol used to cost 40 bucks a gallon and you had to pay to dispose of it, so there was an advantage to recycle/purify.  A barrel of Methanol has possibilities and would cost a bit to dispose.  Consider how you would get rid of it if it doesn't work out.  If the barrel is tech grade, you would be getting a higher purity after distilling.  Not that a glow engine would need that.

I agree with testing some from the barrel, and if it works, run it.  If you want to save cost of Methanol with free barrel, it can be purified.

I don't really recommend doing this unless you know you are up to it.  It does work and it works really well.  Hillbillies been doin it for many a moon-shine.

[qaz049]

I have recycled Ethanol for laboratory use using expensive UL listed distillers and also janky equipment I didn't trust anyone else to use.

Methanol boils at about 150F whereas Ethanol boils around 170F. 

A relatively simple setup using a recirculating "water bath heater" set a few degrees above boiling point works really nice and leaves behind water and other impurities.  A small set up would do 2.5 gallons in about 6 hours.



I don't really recommend doing this unless you know you are up to it.  It does work and it works really well.  Hillbillies been doin it for many a moon-shine.

In Ireland it's regarded as so simple a process that children do it after school to earn a few extra bucks.

[Paul Smith]

Just for the sake of discussion I figured this out:
A liter of water weighs 1000 grams.
A liter of methanol weights 790 grams.
A liter of 99% methanol and 1% water would weigh 792 grams.
So if you could reliably measure out exactly a liter and weigh it with that degree of accuracy, you could devine the water content. 
Of course you could scale this down to 10 mL or 100 mL if your test equipment is precise enough.
So what do you consider the water content that would render a source of methanol unusable as model fuel?

For extra credit, obtain a sample of methanol from a trusted source and run the test on that methanol. 

[Dave Harmon]

      This is the main reason why I'm going to look into this. If there was a close by acceptable source for fuel I wouldn't be making this effort. None of the current fuel producers is close enough to drive to and pick up fuel on short order. Local hobby shops carry Morgan fuels, and I have used them in the past, but I find that while they run OK, not quite the same as the SIG I am used to.  Towards the end of their run in Montezuma, we used to make a run up there just to pick up fuel when it was available after the planneddemic. Every place else will have to ship and cost just gets out of hand, well beyond what I can afford. I resorted to mixing my own with the VP 50/50 mix and that has worked well. I only have to store to containers for the main fixins' . If I was still working and didn't have the extra time, I probably would not mess with it, but I think this is worth the effort and will not be that difficult to pick up and transport.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

Dan.....I wish you had mentioned you needed alky at the Tulsa contest. I was sitting right next to you at lunch....we could have driven over 4 or 5 miles to the place and got whatever you needed....or I could have brought it to you the next day.
In fact....just last week I bought 5 more gallons.....$4.72 gal.

[Dan McEntee]

Dan.....I wish you had mentioned you needed alky at the Tulsa contest. I was sitting right next to you at lunch....we could have driven over 4 or 5 miles to the place and got whatever you needed....or I could have brought it to you the next day.
In fact....just last week I bought 5 more gallons.....$4.72 gal.

    Hi Dave!!
    Thanks, but I wouldn't have had any way to bring it home. I found a place about an hour drive from me that I get the VP Fuels 50/50 mix from and they have racing methanol for about that same price. A lot of dirt track racing in the outer areas here with sprints, midgets, quads and such and a lot of guys run alky. It's a home heating oil and supply company that's been around for a long time, supplying and servicing farms and such, and they do this also. They are two or three dollars a gallon or more cheaper than other speed shops closer to me. I'll only need to go there once or twice a year so it's not a problem. I'm just pursuing this because it's free, and a bit closer than where I go to get the other stuff, so no big deal there.. It's just sitting there, and worth a bit of my time and gas to go test it and see. If it's no good, I'll walk away. If it works, between my flying buddy Mark Hughes (who was there at Tulsa also) and I, we will use it up quick enough.
  Thanks for checking in!!
    Dan McEntee

[qaz049]

    A quick question for all the chemical people out there. Is there a quick test to use on methanol to see if it's viable for making model fuel?  I have a line on 55 gallon drum that came from a reputable chemical supply house here and can get it for free. That makes it worth getting and doing some testing. The easiest way I know would be to mix a quart of 5% all castor fuel and test run it in a Fox .35 or even an LA.25 and compare it to a jug on known good fuel which I have. I'm guessing that a specific gravity test would tell if it had any water accumulated in it?? It's been stored in a garage for quite a while but for free, I think it's worth a gamble to look into it.

  Thanks in advance,
   Dan McEntee

In this youtube video a European dude demonstrates a useful procedure for testing for the presence of water in glow fuel and a range of other modelling liquids. He uses Copper Sulphate CuSO4, a cheap chemical readily available in Garden Supply outlets.  It would be necessary to adapt his process for pure Methanol, but you could additionally mix up 1%, 5%, 10% samples of Water and Methanol and compare it to an unknown sample out of your drum. He doesn't talk volumes or Mass values for the CuSO4 but any size would be reasonable.

.

[Tom Luciano]

  That's what is so nice about stunt, everyone wants to help everyone else out of the goodness of their hearts.
     
    Brett

I think Brett just gained a place or two on the Buttafucco "Smart Ass" list. Simple but effective, outstanding work!

[Dan McEntee]

  Well, now I know!! The barrel is in my trailer and I'm resting a bit at a Burger King nearby. The barrel was about 3/4 full, and.contents was crystal clear and smelled normal. A small sample lit off and burned with no visible flame just fine. A splash on a surface evaporates in seconds leaving mo trace. I ran the Fox .35 in my Rehab Ringmaster last night on some SIG Champion 5% N fuel and set the needle for 8,000 rpm and let the tank run out. I had a quart bottle with enough nitro and castor oil that it should have been a close match and I just added 24 ounces of the methanol. I choked it, hooked up the starter box, pulled the prop through and got a bumb and two flips later it was running! I was in some cool shade that might have been 10 or 15 degrees cooler than last night and the rpm was down a few hundred and a small tweak brought it right to 8,000. It ran steady there for the duration of the 3 ounce I put in which lasted about 5:30. That was good enough for me!! So I'm happy. If I just use this for spirt flying it will make the fresher stuff last me a while longer.
   Thanks to all for the hints, tips and suggestions on testing, treating and such. I appreciate it!
  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Gordon Tarbell]

I find it fairly quick and accurate using my fuel hydrometer. I bought a set many years ago that covers very light race gas all the way through 100 % nitro. With temp conversion chart

[Dan McEntee]

I find it fairly quick and accurate using my fuel hydrometer. I bought a set many years ago that covers very light race gas all the way through 100 % nitro. With temp conversion chart

  Wal-Mart was out of those yesterday! I would hate to think what that might cost. This may be a one time thing. Pouring 24 ounces into a quart bottle , shaking it, then running it compared to a know good fuel with a same needle setting and a tachometer worked pretty well.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Paul Van Dort]

The table

[Dan McEntee]

The table

  Hi Paul;
    I'm assuming that the weight would be in grams? I might be able to rig that up and try that. Will be working in my garage trying to regain some order and will try that tomorrow. I have a couple of electronic scales and if I want to split the hair I have an O'Haus  triple beam scale and some light weight graduated 1 liter measuring cups. Will be interesting to see the results. Thanks for checking in and thanks for the table.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

I think Brett just gained a place or two on the Buttafucco "Smart Ass" list. Simple but effective, outstanding work!

  Dave set that one up on a tee, I just took the swing.

    Brett

[Steve Thompson]

The Table:  "Water Content of Methanol" is pretty handy.

To be accurate, you need to get the volume precise and "volumetric flasks" are typically used.  There is a line on the narrow neck, and it is way more accurate than a wide mouth container.

On ebay, search for:

"Volumetric Flask with Ground Glass Stopper, 1000ml Capacity"

It is 16 bucks with free shipping.  Highest quality for sure!

[Paul Van Dort]

  Hi Paul;
    I'm assuming that the weight would be in grams? I might be able to rig that up and try that. Will be working in my garage trying to regain some order and will try that tomorrow. I have a couple of electronic scales and if I want to split the hair I have an O'Haus  triple beam scale and some light weight graduated 1 liter measuring cups. Will be interesting to see the results. Thanks for checking in and thanks for the table.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Yes, I am in continental Europe: Grams :-)

[Brian Hampton]

There's a quick and easy way to check for water in fuel. Fill a smallish syringe (~100ml) with a fuel mix or add some oil into straight methanol and give it a shake to mix the oil. Put the syringe into a fridge to cool it a bit. If there's any water then the oil will settle out to the bottom of the syringe. Percent of water is temperature dependent so the lower the temperature the less water is needed to settle out the oil.

[Doug Moon]

Methanol is the least expensive component of fuel.  Even it the meth is free, you probably can't beat the price of buying fuel from the accepted source.

That used to be the case here in Dallas but my local Hobby Town is now wanting $59.00 after tax per gallon for 15% nitro fuel VP racing. It used to be $40.00.  But now at $59.00, I will be mixing my own. And when I do mix my own it performs better. I think their version of 15% nitro is not really 15%.