Methanol Quest

[Motorman]

Might be good for a laugh.

Can methanol absorb so much water that it won't burn? Someone, who I've been tracking down for a week, gave me 2 gallons from an almost empty 55 gal drum. It doesn't smell very strong, it beads up like water, seems thicker than it should be and I soaked a Q tip with it and it would not catch fire using a Bic lighter. LOL, I don't think it's gonna' work.

Anyway, have to drive 2.5 hour round trip to get methanol from a VP distributer $60 for 5 gal. Ebay has it but double the price. S&W sold to me for years but just told me he can't make enough money on the sale and he won't over charge me even though I offered to pay whatever. lol, Maybe you can figure that one out.

Just thought I'd relate my quest for alky story. Will feel good to have my 5 gallon can next week if all goes well.

Motorman    

[Dan Berry]

Speed shop for race cars near you? It should be about 4 bucks a gallon.

[944_Jim]

Can methanol absorb enough water to be useless? Yep! Ever dump a stale load of fuel from a lawnmower gas tank? I mean the junk that looks like Pee mixed with milk...that's a lot of water!
I got my last gallon of methanol from the automotive speed engine builder 30 mins away...just as Mr. Dan says.

[Robert Zambelli]

MM - I had the exact same thing happen to me.
A friend gave me some fuel from a nearly empty 55 gallon drum.
It was around 12 years old and would not run in an engine but would barely burn.
I believe the term is hydroscopic.

Bob Z.

[Perry Rose]

Watson Hardware in ,where else, Watson, Louisiana has methanol at $3.50 a gallon. 5 gallon minimum. They have a circle track car. VP at the drag strip was 6 something a gallon 8 years ago.

[john e. holliday]

I was told one time years ago that straining fuelthrough a canvas cloth/rag would remove water.  I've done it with gasoline but not with fuel.

[Tim Wescott]

I was told one time years ago that straining fuelthrough a canvas cloth/rag would remove water.  I've done it with gasoline but not with fuel.

Water isn't soluble in "real" gasoline (i.e., some mix of light hydrocarbons).  So if cotton or whatever your canvas is made out of soaks up water in preference to hydrocarbons then that'll work.  It'll basically wick up the water and reject the hydrocarbons.

Dunno how it'll work on gas with ethanol in it -- probably still would, at least to the point of removing any excess water that's not made soluable by the ethanol.

Methanol loves water and water loves methanol.  So I don't think you could separate them that way.  If you live in an enlightened area of the country you may be able to borrow someone's backyard still and distill the methanol from the water.  Might want to tell them it's wood alcohol, though, so they feel they've participated in the decision to crap up their still.  It's probably cheaper to toss the bad stuff and get new, though.

[Tim Wescott]

Watson Hardware in ,where else, Watson, Louisiana has methanol at $3.50 a gallon. 5 gallon minimum. They have a circle track car. VP at the drag strip was 6 something a gallon 8 years ago.

I know a guy who flies C/L and who races some amateur fuelie drag race class.  I was mixing my own fuel for a bit and getting methanol from him.

You have to work hard to save any money over just buying fuel from VP or whoever, and even then you don't save a lot.  You have to spend a lot of time maintaining contacts with sources of chemicals.

[dave siegler]

As others have said.  speed shops. 

Kart racing.  The local kart racing shop sells methanol and Castor oil. 

Snowmobiles racing.

A local gas station near the race track has it in a pump. 

Its not about saving money, its about controlling the mix

[Paul Smith]

Can ethanol be used as glow fuel?

It would be nice if it could.  They are making corn ethanol all over the place.

[Dan McEntee]

  I retrieved some isopropyl alcohol from work , about 30 gallons I think, to save them the expense of having to dispose of it. The drum was not sealed with a cap and I didn't know for how long. I put it in some heavy plastic 5 gallon jugs similar to what it would come in if you bought it that way, figuring to just use it as a cheap solvent for cleaning stuff and such. i gave 5 gallons to a friend who is into model live steam trains to use as fuel for those, and it would not ignite in any way, shape or form for him. So in a word, yes, it will absorb enough water to the point it won't burn. Just think what the gas in your car's tank has in it!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[frank mccune]

        Walt et al:

         This why I am firing up my Diesels for my Summer flying.  I can mix Diesel fuel much easier than glow fuel and the cost is about the same.  I will have more information at the end flying season.

         Frank

[Tim Wescott]

Can ethanol be used as glow fuel?

It would be nice if it could.  They are making corn ethanol all over the place.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/engine-set-up-tips/stalkers-and-discovery-run-on-denatured-alcohol-or-e85/msg578305/#msg578305

[pmackenzie]

Water isn't soluble in "real" gasoline (i.e., some mix of light hydrocarbons).  So if cotton or whatever your canvas is made out of soaks up water in preference to hydrocarbons then that'll work.  It'll basically wick up the water and reject the hydrocarbons.

Dunno how it'll work on gas with ethanol in it -- probably still would, at least to the point of removing any excess water that's not made soluable by the ethanol.

Methanol loves water and water loves methanol.  So I don't think you could separate them that way.  If you live in an enlightened area of the country you may be able to borrow someone's backyard still and distill the methanol from the water.  Might want to tell them it's wood alcohol, though, so they feel they've participated in the decision to crap up their still.  It's probably cheaper to toss the bad stuff and get new, though.

A molecular sieve can remove water from methanol:
https://www.molecularsievedesiccants.com/molecular-sieve-for-solvent-drying

[Wayne Collier]

Can ethanol be used as glow fuel?

It would be nice if it could.  They are making corn ethanol all over the place.

I’ve used a mixture of lumberyard denatured alcohol and castor oil in cox engines. Denatured alcohol is mostly ethanol with some methanol mixed in. I used two parts denatured alcohol to one part castor oil. Worked but a little experimenting with the mix may have improved it.

[Motorman]

That's 33% castor! The only engine I know that recommends that is the "Fox of England" PAW and only for the break in period. Next time try 4 to 1. 

I've got a guy that goes to the dirt track every week. I'll task him and see what he brings back then give it the flame test.

VP sells M5 which is methanol with some nitro mixed in but, I don't know how much.   

[Dan Berry]

That's 33% castor! The only engine I know that recommends that is the "Fox of England" PAW and only for the break in period. Next time try 4 to 1. 

I've got a guy that goes to the dirt track every week. I'll task him and see what he brings back then give it the flame test.

VP sells M5 which is methanol with some nitro mixed in but, I don't know how much.

[Dan Berry]

VP sells a 50/50 methanol/ nitro can

[Motorman]

VP sells a 50/50 methanol/ nitro can

Already got nitro and oil for a couple of years worth of fuel. Next go round I probably will go with that VP 50/50. Wonder how much fuel I'll need to wear out 5 LA46's.

Motorman

[Dave_Trible]

I have a VP gas station a few blocks away but can't get them interested in getting me any methanol.  I found a packaging company in town (who re-packages certain things) carries methanol and I can easily get it from them.  They told me it is commonly sold to cleaning companies for their purposes, that's why they have it.  So maybe you will have another place to look for it.

Dave

[George Grossardt]

The issue is getting nitro. 

[Dave_Trible]

The issue is getting nitro.

Google “Torco nitromethane “ and see how close a dealer is to you and if they will ship it UPS.

Dave

[Reptoid]

The issue is getting nitro.

You can buy 50-50 (50% Methanol/50% Nitromethane) from VP in 5 gallon sealed cans. No need to get ripped off buying straight nitro from Torco. If you do the math it is WAY CHEAPER than buying straight Nitro. You can make any model airplane fuel using 50-50 up to 40% nitro (20% oil and 100% 50-50)
Go Kart shops, speed shops, Biodiesel suppliers, industrial chemical supply, etc. are other good sources to check and all sell 99.9% pure Methanol.

[Dan McEntee]

You can buy 50-50 (50% Methanol/50% Nitromethane) from VP in 5 gallon sealed cans. No need to get ripped off buying straight nitro from Torco. If you do the math it is WAY CHEAPER than buying straight Nitro. You can make any model airplane fuel using 50-50 up to 40% nitro (20% oil and 100% 50-50)
Go Kart shops, speed shops, Biodiesel suppliers, industrial chemical supply, etc. are other good sources to check and all sell 99.9% pure Methanol.

  I haven't done a search on this yet, but I'm pretty sure that using the 50/50 mix as a base for mixing your own fuel has been discussed and their should be a good thread about it. Just add the oil to an empty jug that you require, then add the proper amounts of straight methanol and the 50/50 mix as you need it for the nitro content you need. A lot less measuring I think. I'm going to look into this as my fuel supply gets used so incase SIG or Lou from Lou's Brew can't mix fuel, I can do it myself in small batches this way.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Dave_Trible]

I don’t know how the VP 50/50 prices out.  With the straight Torco at 10% nitro I get about $7.30 a mixed gallon of fuel and with everything around $18.00 a gallon.  I’m not complaining.  Dan,  Lou’s brew works very well for me too.  I’ll ask him to bring me 2-3 cases to St. Louis this summer.  It’s easier than mixing if I don’t have to.  It’s nice to have the supplies to mix though when I need to- or doctor up other fuel I may have.

Dave

[Dan McEntee]

I don’t know how the VP 50/50 prices out.  With the straight Torco at 10% nitro I get about $7.30 a mixed gallon of fuel and with everything around $18.00 a gallon.  I’m not complaining.  Dan,  Lou’s brew works very well for me too.  I’ll ask him to bring me 2-3 cases to St. Louis this summer.  It’s easier than mixing if I don’t have to.  It’s nice to have the supplies to mix though when I need to- or doctor up other fuel I may have.

Dave

   Yeah, I'm only thinking about it as an emergency solution if I can't get it premixed. Some one in this thread said that it made Nitro cheaper, and one less component to keep on hand. All you need is a supply of oil, a 5 gallon can of the 50/50 alky/nitro mix, and 5 gallon can of good methanol, and the math knowledge of how much of each to add. Put the oil in a 1 gallon jug, then the proper amount of 50/50 mix, then the balance in methanol.  Mix two or three gallons at a time and not much space needed either. As long as I can get premixed from SIG or Lou Rankin, I'll go that route. There is a place near me that is a high volume VP dealer where I can get the methanol, the 50'50 mix, and even the oil I think but that's easily acquired from several other sources here.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Motorman]

My man got 1/2 mile from the race track and got the notice of the rain out. No methanol yet.

[Motorman]

I braved Friday traffic on I-95 Delaware and made it back home with 5 gallons of M1 methanol. If the wind and rain ever stop, I might get to use it this year. How empty should the can get before I decant to 1 gal bottles?

Motorman

[Dave Harmon]

I braved Friday traffic on I-95 Delaware and made it back home with 5 gallons of M1 methanol. If the wind and rain ever stop, I might get to use it this year. How empty should the can get before I decant to 1 gal bottles?

Motorman

IMO....you should leave it all in the original can and pour off only one gal at a time to make it easier to handle when mixing fuel.
Also...this will limit the exposure to humidity every time you pour.
I have two 5 gal race bottles I use to buy the alky then store it for use.

[Tim Wescott]

IMO....you should leave it all in the original can and pour off only one gal at a time to make it easier to handle when mixing fuel.
Also...this will limit the exposure to humidity every time you pour.
I have two 5 gal race bottles I use to buy the alky then store it for use.

Or mix up seven gallons (or whatever) of fuel at a time, using up your five gallons of methanol in the process.  Then put them into jugs with known-good seals.  If you're especially paranoid, tie each jug up into a clear plastic bag with a healthy-sized indicating desiccant pack, and change out the desiccant when it turns pink.

[Dave Harmon]

Or mix up seven gallons (or whatever) of fuel at a time, using up your five gallons of methanol in the process.  Then put them into jugs with known-good seals.  If you're especially paranoid, tie each jug up into a clear plastic bag with a healthy-sized indicating desiccant pack, and change out the desiccant when it turns pink.

I've done that Tim but not anymore!

One time years ago I made a measuring mistake and then I had a lot of fuel that didn't run like I thought it should.
Back then it was R/C fuel that would run ok pretty much whatever you did to it.

These days....my C/L airplanes are not burning 26oz per flight so I only mix one gallon at a time.
As we all know....C/L engines need the correct fuel to make them run correctly for PA.
As an example. I use B-40 engines that require a vastly different fuel than the Rojett and the like engines so I use several different mix of fuels.

[Steve_Pollock]

Paul, Dave Gierke reported on ethanol as a model engine fuel in the March, 2010 issue of MAN.  The article is reproduced below.

[944_Jim]

MM,
I think it would be best to get them into individual gallons at your earliest convenience.
I store up to three gallons of racecar methanol in single gallon jugs. The jugs are plugged with recycled red seals, such as shipped within the caps on commercially available fuel. The jugs are kept in a cool, dry room at home. Then each is used as necessary (I mix 8 oz at a time). ISTR buying 10 of the red seals for only a few dollars, and consider recycling them as a good portion of the method of en-cheap-ment (save a buck). So far so good. But I'll be refilling those three bottles this summer.
The methanol is used to cut my 30% nitro fuel down to 10% nitro.

[Bob Angel]

I don't log on often enough, so I apologise for the late response to the initial question about water absorption.

Years ago someone put me onto using 3 angstrom Molecular sieve as a desiccant to absorb water out of methanol, and it worked for me. I just made a quick internet check and saw 3A molecular sieve at $20 for 2 pounds, which should be more that you'l need unless you're in the fuel business. An angstrom is a very small unit, so I assume 4A is the correct size to absorb the water, but let the methanol flow through the porous beads

The idea is to filter the questionable methanol through the little absorbent BB sized beads. One of several possible setups might be to use at least a 2' length of PVC pipe with the bottom capped off and a short length of 1/2" brass tubing epoxied into the cap so it will go inside the opening of a 1 gallon can. Fill the PVC with the sieve material and using a funnel at the top pour the liquid through into the receiving can and seal it. You'd probably need a helper for that process.

Or you could funnel the beads into an empty can; add the contaminated methanol and let it stand sealed for a while. Then filter it into the final container to get any fine contaminants out. You could just cap the can of beads for storage until needed again. You'd probably never need to rejuvenate the beads, but just like any other desiccant, heating would drive out the retained water.

This should only be done with un-mixed methanol (no oil or nitro). Bob
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