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Author Topic: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue  (Read 4283 times)

Offline Tim Stagg

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Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« on: November 14, 2016, 08:36:14 AM »
OK all,

Here is what I found:

Lead out shift to rear....no difference in wings oscillations
Adding tip weight.....No real difference although as soon as the power stopped the outside wing did droop until landing
Moving the Trim tab on the outside wing to provide positive down pressure on the outside wing....no real difference.

However after watching the airplane 10 plus times trying all these different possible issues was that I do think that this is a yaw issue. i can see the outside wheel pant rocking back and forth slightly like it is trying to fly out but  the lines pull it back into the circle.....at that same time the wings seem to oscillate due to this motion.

I am going to try going away from the counter clockwise rotation back to a tractor to see if this helps.
I may add a temporary trim tab to the rudder to see what adjustments may or may not help.
I will also look at the lead-out position again as it pertains to the tractor setup

This is what I have found....if I cant get any of these things to work....I am going to shelve it for a while before I jump on it....... HB~> HB~>

If anyone has anything else I may have overlooked and could be the yaw issue, feel free to ask questions and or suggest things to look at.

If anyone else has an

 
Tim Stagg

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2016, 10:55:55 AM »
HI Tim,
Sometimes things just don't work the way they are expected to.  I'm not an electric guy so don't have any magic for you in this problem.  I do have about 50 years experience in trimming "slimers" however and have a question relating to how you made the changes.  Did you make the changes one at a time (I think you implied you did).  Did you return everything to the base trim after making a change or just add the change to the one that didn't work?
Sometimes it's necessary to add one change on top of another to achieve a balance of forces.  Yes this gets complicated and requires a lot of time but at this stage I believe your problem is a combination of trim issues.

Randy Cuberly

 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 11:17:33 AM by Randy Cuberly »
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2016, 01:57:01 PM »
OK all,

Here is what I found:

Lead out shift to rear....no difference in wings oscillations
Adding tip weight.....No real difference although as soon as the power stopped the outside wing did droop until landing
Moving the Trim tab on the outside wing to provide positive down pressure on the outside wing....no real difference.

However after watching the airplane 10 plus times trying all these different possible issues was that I do think that this is a yaw issue. i can see the outside wheel pant rocking back and forth slightly like it is trying to fly out but  the lines pull it back into the circle.....at that same time the wings seem to oscillate due to this motion.

I am going to try going away from the counter clockwise rotation back to a tractor to see if this helps.
I may add a temporary trim tab to the rudder to see what adjustments may or may not help.
I will also look at the lead-out position again as it pertains to the tractor setup

This is what I have found....if I cant get any of these things to work....I am going to shelve it for a while before I jump on it....... HB~> HB~>

If anyone has anything else I may have overlooked and could be the yaw issue, feel free to ask questions and or suggest things to look at.

If anyone else has an

 

    If you move the leadouts and not the rudder, you won't get much change. For typical stunt planes, it takes a huge change in the leadout position to overcome the torque from the rudder/fin, or conversely, a tiny amount of rudder motion to overcome a huge leadout offset.  That's why the fin alignment and rudder position is so critical. Note this thread, which seems on point:

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=2609&mesg_id=2609&listing_type=search#2612

   While you are at it, I would very strongly suggest double-checking the fin alignment to make sure that there is no offset to the left/inboard. I know of one airplane that was built with the fin straight down the center of the turtledeck, but wasn't vertical - it was tilted slightly to the left. The top was tilted maybe 3/32" towards the inboard side. Even that small offset, when combined with the downward angle of the turtledeck, was sufficient to cause all sorts of havoc with the trim. This was complicated by the fact that the fuselage was bending in yaw depending on which way the sun hit it in the pits like a bi-metallic strip. It was perfectly aligned measuring it in the garage, but leave it in the sun for a few minutes, and the sun side would get longer and depending which way the pits were aligned, it either added to or subtracted from the fin offset, and maybe more importantly, the skew of the elevator WRT the wing. In level flight the skew won't make much difference, but the fin sure will.

    I would suggest adding, in as small an increment as you can (1/32" at a time), rudder offset and observe the results. Even that small amount should alter the roll angle (dropping the outboard tip) and the yaw angle (nose moving out) to a noticeable degree. Also. double-check that you don't have any inboard engine offset. It doesn't need much outboard, but you have to have enough to know it is not inboard even a little bit. if necessary, shim the motor attachment (maybe .005" at a time on a typical electric firewall mount) to convince yourself that it's not inboard.

    Disregard the diversion in the first thread, I don't think you are really concerned with the differing techical arguments between Igor and I, you have a particular issue and should be able to solve it with well-understood changes that are not really subject to debate.

     Brett

Online Dan Berry

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2016, 02:54:45 PM »
Take the wheel pants off and see if it's still rocking.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2016, 03:23:19 PM »
Take the wheel pants off and see if it's still rocking.

Not a bad plan. I recall Chris Cox having a problem with one of his early "Defiant" series due to one of the wheel pants being out of whack. When it was back in whack, it worked much better. He didn't say what the problem was that lead to the investigation.

Along these lines, I have a CF landing gear that has one wheel mounting flange arranged to have "toe-in"...outboard, I believe. I have thought about "re-pitching" it with heat, but have not, yet. It hasn't caused any problems on that plane (Skylark), but I setup the wheels/axles such that the outboard wheel is not as free turning as the inboard. I do think that it would likely be a problem with wheel trousers.  y1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Tim Stagg

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2016, 07:30:40 AM »
Guys,

Thanks for your input, just as a followup to your comments.

Dan and Steve, I have removed the Wheel pants for the majority of this trimming but there was no change in what it was doing...not saying they could not contribute to the problem...but I dont think they they are the main issue....But for wear and tear issues I may take them back off until I get the problem solved

Brett, I was thinking down the same lines as what you are saying. The vertical stab is on the center line as best as I can do....is it 100% vertical??....darn close but may not be perfect..that is a going to take some serious jigging and alignment measuring with a semi round fuse...but I will check. I will check the motor alignment as well...I think I am at 00 but will maybe try a tab of right offset. I am also installing a trim tab on the rudder to adjust the offset a little at a time.

Randy, I did start out trying one thing at a time...lead outs...tip weight...trim tab adjustments... then got impatient and started adding other ideas at the same time... not sure i tried all combinations and or too many different combinations at the same time. My thought process was there was a significant change with any of them or some combination ....leading to my theory that I am not looking at the correct issue.....I do really think it is yaw based now I just have to figure out what the major culprit is and fine tune the trim changes for there

I really do appreciate the suggestions guys....I will keep at it...I just wish the weather would cooperate....well it is fall and winter will soon be upon us.

Thanks
Tim Stagg

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2016, 10:07:15 AM »
was thinking down the same lines as what you are saying. The vertical stab is on the center line as best as I can do....is it 100% vertical??....darn close but may not be perfect..that is a going to take some serious jigging and alignment measuring with a semi round fuse...but I will check. I will check the motor alignment as well...I think I am at 00 but will maybe try a tab of right offset. I am also installing a trim tab on the rudder to adjust the offset a little at a tim

   At this point, don't worry too much about how it was originally mounted. Just do a *small* rudder tab and see what happens.

     Brett

Offline Tim Stagg

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2016, 11:48:36 AM »
Thanks Brett,

Will do
Tim Stagg

Online Dan Berry

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2016, 03:41:21 PM »
You can make a temporary tab out of a piece of beer can and adhere it with double stick foam tape.
FWIW----Pabst Blue Ribbon cans make the best tabs.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2016, 05:17:27 PM »
I find coke cans work best for trim tabs. LL~ LL~ LL~
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline frank williams

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2016, 08:04:56 PM »
Tab , Smab ..... cut the sucker off .... the plane is in finishing stage ... take a straightedge and a #11 and cut it off and see what happens ...
I had a similar problem ... I knew it had to be a vertical fin / rudder effect (I think it was the sharpness of the leading edge of the fin) anyway it cured the problem .... however, we do need yaw damping of some kind ..... as I recall, the offending fin was rather tall, that might have been part of the problem.  However, electric pushers have proven to be a "horse of a different color".

Offline Tim Stagg

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2016, 08:01:58 AM »
The Miller Lite that I had last night was the perfect can---di-date  #^....I am so funny

I bought cans this week just for the cause...

I also changed to a tractor prop with a very slight right offset and I am going to try things out this afternoon....if the weather holds....stay tuned

Tim Stagg

Online Dan Berry

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2016, 09:42:12 AM »
The Miller Lite that I had last night was the perfect can---di-date  #^....I am so funny

I bought cans this week just for the cause...

I also changed to a tractor prop with a very slight right offset and I am going to try things out this afternoon....if the weather holds....stay tuned



 ;DThey'll work but PBR does it best.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2016, 05:11:39 PM »
Scuzz Twitley would approve of the PBR.
I don't see PBR often out here, but that doesn't matter...no PBR for me.  VD~ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Online Dan Berry

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2016, 06:14:03 PM »
Very very nice! Everyone rags on the PBR until they need a engine shim or a trim tab. Then the begging starts.
On a side note: he's wearing a hat from Wyandot County Products.
I will tell you that when in Lenexa, outside of Kansas City, you absolutely need to visit Wyandot BBQ.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2016, 07:49:21 PM »
My granddaughter works there.   My self I have my choice place for BBQ because of the beans they have.  Emmy also flew my planes for me until some Ja****s told her ladies don't play with toy planes. VD~
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flying update on Wing Waggle Trim Issue
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2016, 11:43:53 AM »
I should apologize for the topic drift here, but I'm a bottle beer guy and would prefer Shiner Bock or MGD.
Lousy for rudder and flap tabs.

I didn't think about the link showing the video and the graphic nature, for which I do apologize. Would also like to point out that I wasn't looking for Scuzz Twitley when I discovered him on YouTube. Was actually looking for Rodney Carrington, whose act is even more Adult rated. Funnier than Scuzz, too.  y1 Steve 
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.


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