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Author Topic: Max Bee plans discrepancy  (Read 1604 times)

Offline Mike Alimov

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Max Bee plans discrepancy
« on: June 26, 2019, 03:14:56 PM »
I'm having sheeted foam wings built per Max Bee plans, and the builder reported that there is a discrepancy between the tip template chord and the wing top view.   Apparently, the tip template needs to be reduced to 72% to match the chord shown on the wing plan view. Has anyone noticed that?

Of course, Igor's input would be most valuable, but we're in the middle of a busy summer season...

Any input appreciated.


Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2019, 08:40:58 PM »
Could it just be the "joy" of trying to make something off a CAD drawing?

I always had problems with that. My theory was that the 'drafter' didn't spend enough time looking at the drawing to bother getting it right. Opinions may vary on that, but the place I worked at and retired from was constantly putting FUBAR drawings into the shop, and I lost my patience with that. Drawing says "any aluminum", PL says 1018 CRS. What?  LL~ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2019, 01:36:40 AM »
There are issues with the plans, lots of things don't match between top and side views.
I think the drawing was done in CorelDraw, not exactly known for its precision as CAD tool.

For things like chords use the info on the MAX-II, it has the same wing. (Flap chords are not the same however)

http://www.netax.sk/hexoft/stunt/the_max_ii.htm
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Offline Kevin Wright

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2019, 07:12:02 PM »
Folks,
I did the CAD drawings for Igor's Max Bee. If you note any discrepancies, please give me the specifics.
I've drawn several models using TurboCAD and I've not noticed any issues with it's accuracy. Again,
If you are aware of a specific issue with TurboCAD accuracy, let me know.

I'll do some checking myself.

The TurboCAD drawings were based on Igor's original CorelDraw plans. I'll contact Igor direct and make him aware of your issues.

My name is on the official plans and I'm on this forum. I'm surprised no one PM'ed me directly.
Regards,
Kevin Wright
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 07:43:27 PM by Kevin Wright »

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2019, 07:30:33 PM »
I didn't know there were Cad drawings, I did my own also based on the original Corel Draw ones.

Igor obviously has the whole plane done using a solid modelling program now, since there is a "3D" kit available with CNC milled parts.

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Offline Kevin Wright

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2019, 08:06:44 PM »
I didn't know there were Cad drawings, I did my own also based on the original Corel Draw ones.

Igor obviously has the whole plane done using a solid modelling program now, since there is a "3D" kit available with CNC milled parts.
Hi Pat,
The only 'official' plans I'm aware of are the one's I drew up in TurboCAD and the associated PDF files (two sheets).

To my knowledge they're only available from PAMPA courtesy of Bob Hunt.

Whatever you've got do not appear to have come from my CAD pen. I will check my drawings as I said.
I am going to be extremely pxxxxx off if I find there are set of unauthorized plans floating around!
Kevin

Update
I just checked the drawings for the items mentioned above.

My plans appear fine. Tip template matches the wing plan view and all former locations on side elevation and
plan view of the fuse match.

Whatever the folk on this thread think they're building It's not what Igor designed and I drew.
Get yourself a set of plans from PAMPA.
Kevin
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 08:29:07 PM by Kevin Wright »

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2019, 09:18:06 PM »
I am currently packing for Echamp, so I canot investigate too much, but I will add some facts. May be it will allow to sort it out.

1/ I did Corel drawing of PARTS for first Max Bee. I say parts, because it was NOT usual building plan. That time I simply printed parts on paper sticker and cut wood that way. Yes, it was done in corel draw and few friends can have it.

2/ THAT drawing was used as background for making of Kevin's "building plan" (2 sheets - thanks for nice work Kevin) as published in Stunt News and which is (or was) available from Pampa plan service, I think as plan #50. We have author here, Kevin can check.

3/ Yes Pat is right, there is also full 3d model (again, not building plan, 3d model) of Max Bee having all details for manufacturing all parts, molds, CNC programs, color foil cutting etc which never went from my PC, because it is too much work in that (years, and I am still modifying) to just send it out and noone will really understand.  That 3d model comes also from orriginal drawing, and I did not find such problems. So if Kevin accidentally did not resize one part by 72% (what is hard to believe) then there cannot be such mistake. It sound more that maker of that wing compared CORE size to WING size with LE and TE balsa parts.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2019, 09:24:18 PM »
And regarding errors in plan. I never heard about such problem with wing and I know many builders did it. I think someone mentioned that there is some minor difference between top and side view on back of fuselage, or elevator. But it was easy to clear, I really do not remember what it was. I can seach for that when I come back home end of July.

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2019, 10:14:12 PM »
A mistakes a mistake , wether its done on a computer or a drawing board . As ' computers dont make mistakes ' We know where to look .   n1
 '' :P :-X
Actually , if the batteries are a bit flat , or suchlike , the arithmetic can get a bit creative with the things .

I doubt theyll ever get the true accuary of a Master draftsman .
Just look at all the ugly cars , bling tiny motorcyles and shirt house architecture available today . The ' Synthetic lost art ' period of design .

The Sixties I tink were the best overlap / interplay of function / form &  stylish  aesthetics .
The poms of course whine about the Amercian Vehicals , But a Dodge 440 on a pommy lane
makes as much sense as a morris minor on a super highway  .Except in current traffic conditions .  :(

Tho there was a Twin turbo Maurice Manure 3.5 Rover V-8 Buick Oldsmobile Pontiac ( B.O.P. ) injuned Ve Hical
that was faster accelerting than the then current Formular one vehicals and gothe British hillclimb Championship .
Tho a Triumph Vitesse beat the porches one year too . None designed on a stoopid computer.

So its the accumen of thre individual . Not neccesarily endless resources , the more complex the more chance for error .
And if you cant throw a ruler and an eye on it , it dont help any. Good for doing rib laser cut things tho, maybe .

A good eye & curves should match it, for a one off in a quarter the time .

198 mph out of number 18 there , and the closest computers nowhere in sight .



Not derideing c a d entirely , but its easy to make the nazi's mistake of assumeing ' advanced tecnology ' is overall superiority .
Its god for stenciling / lettering , and modular / repeat stuff , which is long winded , doing manually .

But as there most of whats been done on this planet , done by traditional methods , they in themselves arnt inferior .
Going back to the 17th century Cathederals , cabinate making and such like , time and labour wernt considered a priority .
there was plenty going without the threat of istantaeneous incineration . Most ' primitave ' societies co - existed in balance
with creation for millenia . Content and some unworried .
Having Fast Food , Travel at Will and a current wardrobe wernt essential .
A picture of a dozen American Indian Chiefs , late eighties , early nineties and a few past the 100 year mark ,
And theyve all still got ALL THEIR TEETH , makes you wonder about the wonders of modern tecnology . And consumerism .
Explained as getting people to think they need things they dont want , and buy them .

« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 11:44:22 PM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Kevin Wright

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2019, 11:39:16 PM »
A mistakes a mistake , wether its done on a computor or a drwaing board . As ' computers dont make mistakes ' We know where to look .   n1

Actually , if the batteries arte a bit flat , or suchlike , the arithmatic can get a bit creative with the things .

I doubt theyll ever get the true accuacy of a Master draftsman .
Just look at all the ugly cars , bling tiny motorcyles and shirt house architecture available today . The ' Synthetic lost art ' period of design .

The Sixties I tink were the best oreverlap / interplay of function / form & breezy asthetics .
The poms of couse whine about the Amercian Vehicals , But a Dodge 440 on a pommy lane
makes as much sense as a morris minor on a nascar track .
Tho there was a Twin turbo Maurice Manure 3.5 Rover V-8 Buick Oldsmobile Pontiac ( B.O.P. ) injuned Ve Hical
that was faster accelerting than the then current Formular one vehicals and gothe British hillclimb Championship .
Tho a Triumph Vitesse beat the porches one year too . None designed on a stoopid computer.

So its the size of the fight in the dog , again . Not necesarilly endles resources , the more complex the more chance for error .
And if yoy cant throw a ruler and an eye on it , it dont help any. Good for doing rib laser cut things tho, maybe .

A good eye & curves should match it, for a one off in a quarter the time .

198 mph out of number 18 there , and the closist comuters nowhere in sight .


Matt,
You're not seriously suggesting (other than in jest) that CAD drawing is less accurate than drawing pen's and paper?

If you're right my next stunter will have to have a Wilesco D5 Upright in the nose.
Kevin

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2019, 12:19:32 AM »
NO, but nine pregnant woman cant produce a baby in one month , which seems to be the logic of ' computer superiority '
In fact , youd think most modern automobiles WERE designed by nine pregnant woman . And look at the Boing 737 !



The Spifire'd probly have the wheels on top. If theyd designed it with a computer !  S?P LL~

Actually a steam Powered C/L job would be Far Out .

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2019, 12:25:58 AM »


After All , the worlds first tethered aircraft ran on Steam .





 S?P

Offline Ron Varnas

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2019, 08:21:32 AM »
You must more files than the Smithsonian, Matt  ::)
RJV Melb. Australia

Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2019, 11:42:41 AM »
It's a shame that one of the most important designs were published with errors. Yes, provided tip template is far from beeing accurate. Its lenght here is ~202mm, when the width of wing tip without flap at top view is 195mm.
But the most odd discrepancy I'v found is about elevator width. It is provided here with 3 different values - 73.5mm (at side view), 76.8mm (at first top view) and 84.8mm (at second top view). And the real one is... 75mm.


Vitalis P.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2019, 12:48:29 PM »
It's a shame that one of the most important designs were published with errors. Yes, provided tip template is far from beeing accurate. Its lenght here is ~202mm, when the width of wing tip without flap at top view is 195mm.

Sorry again, I am not able to check it now, but ... you cannot compare tip chord length and template - template is for cutting CORE - means it is without LE and TE ... and it is PLUS little entry trails for entering wire to cutting area, so no wonder that it has different size. So please check if you are comparing proper dimmensions. Core size is marked by those holes in templates (see picture). Those holes are for marking foam plan form before cutting by pencil - and then - for aligning foam to template on its edge.

If there are another known bugs, plese write it here, when I come back from Echamp I can sort it out and may be Kevin can repare them.

Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2019, 01:23:03 PM »
... means it is without LE and TE ... and it is PLUS little entry trails for entering wire to cutting area

I would also think so, but root template has the same lenght as wing width at root. So something is still suspicious here. It would be nice if you check the plans someday. Now I wish you good luck at EChamps!


Vitalis P.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2019, 01:27:46 PM »
I would also think so, but root template has the same lenght as wing width at root. So something is still suspicious here. It would be nice if you check the plans someday. Now I wish you good luck at EChamps!


Vitalis P.

I will, when I come. The only problem I do not have it printed 1:1, so when I come I will, and then I will check what you all collected.

and thanks :- ))

Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Max Bee plans discrepancy
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2019, 01:38:00 PM »
I will, when I come. The only problem I do not have it printed 1:1, so when I come I will, and then I will check what you all collected.

Igor, I have myself carefully redrawed top and side view of Maxbee in CorelDraw and I will be glad to share with you if you ask ;)


Vitalis P.


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