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Author Topic: Matte flat finishes.  (Read 3554 times)

Offline Shorts,David

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Matte flat finishes.
« on: November 12, 2024, 04:31:38 PM »
High quality matte finish.
1. If I want to do it, I should do what I want, but...
2. Must it be down-scored according to current rules? The famous wildcat with the authentic flat finish being an example that was down scored.
3
 What about a finish with some matte elements and some gloss elements?

Offline M Spencer

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2024, 05:01:30 PM »
What Is Satin, Gloss, Eggshell & Matt Paint -

How to choose a sheen level

and otherr things . The ' sheene ' being the reflection like wotsit . SO , you do a usual ? ?  :o flawless polished Air Plane . Then scuff it all up . Or spray with Matte Clear . Or Semi Mat .

At Appearance you empty a can of Silicone Spay over it , so its all shiny & no one notices . Then hose it off as soon as you get it out of the hall .

Somrthing like that . Saw various polyurethane spay can Matte , Semi , Gloss .
IF you did the plane FLAWLESSLY , its sour grapes if its not considered ikle pretty .


Anotheroff Rons Planes .

https://onedrive.live.com/?redeem=aHR0cHM6Ly8xZHJ2Lm1zL2IvcyFBamhTTmtOMmxQX0VoSW9nX19taUJJQlRNUElMLWc%5FZT1uaTV1Tmg&cid=C4FF947643365238&id=C4FF947643365238%2166848&parId=C4FF947643365238%215124&o=OneUp

Do A ' Best scale stunt ' Ron Burns Memorial Award , ? For Yr Nat's .



Quote
Ron Burns' F4F Wildcat was probably one of the best "finishes" ever.  Sad that judges at that level were so stuck on the status quo, but I think in truth that was a problem for the event for many years.

That occurred at the Norfolk, VA Nats.  We were absolutely stunned when we walked into the room and there it was, Ron Burn's F4F Wildcat, in the dead last row.  It is nice to see a "shiny" stuntship, but it shouldn't be an unspoken requirement for a top appearance score.

Some of the plastc scale lot do all sorts of tecniques , like a ' wash ' finish . Very thin paint . This ones very realistic .


Its actually a overhauled rebuilt R N Z A F Typhoon . The PAINT weighs quitte a bit on them , too . So leaving it off lets it work better .
Theres one silver ' custom ' , MN666 ,  one with a Mk 7 Sabre . The hottest Typhoon operated .

Things like I.P.M.S. have all the How Too on getting something looking well used . One thing thats disgusting is turning a historic racing machine into a show queen . Like the Tex Mex toikies on da porch 911.
A lot of well refined pommy M'Cyles get ruined by the bright & shiny merchants . No respect for the historic battlescars .



Blah  Blah                                                                                                                                  BLAh .









« Last Edit: November 12, 2024, 05:37:35 PM by Scientifiction . »

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2024, 06:23:58 PM »
High quality matte finish.
1. If I want to do it, I should do what I want, but...
2. Must it be down-scored according to current rules? The famous wildcat with the authentic flat finish being an example that was down scored.
3
 What about a finish with some matte elements and some gloss elements?
David there have been a number of 'scale like' finishes presented at the Nats for appearance judging.   They have about always been placed near the back.  When 'they' did away with the 40 point system and ended 'realism ' and some other category I'm not remembering that awarded scale like finishes extra points the main ingredient for score became shiny finishes and attention to finite imperfections.   I'd suggest you do what pleases you and if that means you take a few point hit on appearance then just fly a little better.  In many cases your airplane may fly better anyway simply because it won't weigh as much as some on the front row.

Dave
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2024, 06:41:12 PM »
High quality matte finish.
1. If I want to do it, I should do what I want, but...
2. Must it be down-scored according to current rules? The famous wildcat with the authentic flat finish being an example that was down scored.
3
 What about a finish with some matte elements and some gloss elements?

   There is no automatic down-grade of matte finish - any more than there is an automatic downgrade of iron-on (e.g. Jim Aron). The Ron Burn thing was universally decried.

    Having said that, *workmanship* and doing a neat job are far and away the most important parts of getting appearance scores. A perfect airplane with an matte finish that is used in a creative and attractive way is just that, a perfect airplane. But it darn well better be perfect, and not look like an accident or less-than-skillfully executed.

   Brett

Online Trostle

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2024, 08:33:14 PM »
High quality matte finish.
1. If I want to do it, I should do what I want, but...
2. Must it be down-scored according to current rules? The famous wildcat with the authentic flat finish being an example that was down scored.
3
 What about a finish with some matte elements and some gloss elements?

The Wildcat that got downgraded for its matte finish at a Nationals when it was judged by judges that were RC Pylon racers that could only recognize super glossy finishes.  That was an abomination that should have never happened.

I would like to think that any competent stunt judge would be able to recognize a scale like finish appropriate for a semi-scale stunt ship at any competition, particularly at the Nationals.

Keith


Online Brett Buck

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2024, 08:55:58 PM »
The Wildcat that got downgraded for its matte finish at a Nationals when it was judged by judges that were RC Pylon racers that could only recognize super glossy finishes.  That was an abomination that should have never happened.

I would like to think that any competent stunt judge would be able to recognize a scale like finish appropriate for a semi-scale stunt ship at any competition, particularly at the Nationals.

Keith

  And, even if it wasn't scale-like, lots of cars are painted matte finish and it is definitely a trend, and when done, can look great. So, prototype or not, it depends on how well it was done, matte or gloss.

   Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2024, 12:05:52 AM »
I saw a matte black Cybertruck on the way home from Las Vegas.  It was awesome and would make a fine Jive Combat Team contest car. 
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Offline fred cesquim

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2024, 04:06:29 AM »
i have used ready matt clear from the can ( 2 part car type)
it´s not completely flat, more like scale
i assume they are not judging scale appearance but rather craftsmanship, if they cannot´differ things, then the judges are unbriefed,  lack building knowleadge or the rules could be revised and they sticked to the rules that shiny is the paramount.

Online Paul Walker

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2024, 09:47:53 AM »
My first B-17 was matt finished. As far as I can tell, it was not downgraded for appearance at the 95 Nat's.
Do what Brett said. Good craftsmanship and neat work will win out.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2024, 01:26:40 PM »
My first B-17 was matt finished. As far as I can tell, it was not downgraded for appearance at the 95 Nat's.
Do what Brett said. Good craftsmanship and neat work will win out.

   As a corollary -since the execution is the most important factor,  try to pick designs/materials/construction you can actually execute well, or are at least just slightly pushing your capabilities. It's just like airplane design, you can have the best design and engine in the world, but if you can't optimize it, in real life it might be more of a hindrance than something a lot simpler that you can actually master. This is the Skyray (and Doctor/Medic) story again - the ultimate capability is nowhere near the best possible, but it's easy enough to deal with that you can actually get nearly 100% of it. rather than something really complex that, in the right hands, might be much better, but in less-than-expert hands is a complete disaster.

  Same thing with finishing. I was pretty good at Monokote over the years, and a nicely-done monokote airplane looks a lot better than a brush-painted dope plane. And I wouldn't dream of attempting what Jim Aron did, because it can obviously win a concours, if I had tried it, it sure wouldn't.

      Brett

Offline M Spencer

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2024, 06:24:10 PM »
It was the Fuel ! .  ;D

 :-X

Black is actually Silver . It shows up all the defects - hence the ' black primer . Once theyre satisfied that all the reflections are straight ( Panel Dressing / work ) its ready for paint .
this dosnt actually mean that silver cars are defects .  S?P

BLACK , the Aircraft lost 5 m.p.h. with the early MATTE Black nightfighter / bomber finishes . Beaufighter I think was where they worked uot the paint , for min. speed loss / max. unseeability .
Lamp Black was soot like , a bit like blackboard paint . But the something index is what wants to be matched for maximum blending in to background .

THESE Australian Spitfires , once theyed been out in the sun for a few months , the surface is so consistant that in a photo its impossable to see the camoflage pattern / edges . Refraction or somesuch .

There were some ding dong battles up thereabouts , if anyones intrested . So much for the poms ' neglecting Australia ' . They wouldve had to use empty beer bottles ( throw them at them ) without the Spitfires .

They were a long way from the pompous asses at H.Q. . So there were ' a few differances ' one reads .m The odd terse word , in fact . So intresting history for a read . And watch out for sharks .


" Active camouflage or adaptive camouflage is camouflage that adapts, often rapidly, to the surroundings of an object such as an animal or military vehicle. "
one needs to be a bit carefull with this , you cant see a dark plane below the horizon at dusk . People painted plane white so the could fly them later .

Online Scott Richlen

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2024, 07:09:30 PM »
Just be aware that a flat camo paint job sometimes works too good!  If you fly at a site with tall trees around the circle you'll find out what I mean!    ;D

Online Mark Gerber

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2024, 09:32:09 PM »
Yes, as Scott says.  A camouflaged airplane can be hard to see against trees and I've also worried someone will not see it in the grass and step on it.

Mark Gerber

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2024, 09:41:40 PM »
2. Must it be down-scored according to current rules?

Just where do you find the current rules for judging finish?

Ken

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Offline Jake Moon

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2024, 10:03:21 PM »
What the others have said about quality of finish and craftsmanship is spot on. When I (along with my dad) judged appearance at the NATS, (among many other things) I looked at the shininess of the plane, but the evenness of the shine. One of the ways to check that is to hold the plane at a 30-45 degree angle underneath overhead lighting and then look down the across the surface (almost like when you check to see if you've built a part straight). As you rotate the plane slightly, look at the crispness of the reflection of the overhead light. That crispness, whatever it is, should stay the same from one end of the plane to the other, and from one surface to another (accounting for things like the covering on open bays). You don't want to see that reflection be really crisp, then soft, then crisp. Steve Millet is probably the best at this, as is Howard Rush. James Vigani also had a Blue Angel that wasn't insanely shiny, but extremely consistent.

I think the easiest way to get that effect (though not easy at all), is to make the plane as shiny as can be. Or at least it hides small issues the best. From my modeling experience I find semi-gloss to be the hardest finish to get even, especially if your color coat is gloss. The more semi-gloss you build up, the duller it becomes, so it's paramount to use exactly the same pressure, distance, and number of passes across the whole thing. When it's wet, it all looks the same. The problems don't start showing up until it dries. This is all the same case for polishing pre-concours as well. And that's why not very shiny planes almost always get scored worse. They're not up front because the workmanship and the execution aren't there, and it's easy to see.

A pure matte finish is easier than semi-gloss, but comes with its own issues as well. If even the slightest contamination or moisture difference gets in there, there's not really anything you can do to hide it besides sanding it away and starting again. And swirl marks from cleaning show up easier than gloss or semi-gloss.

In any event, a consistent finish is an impressive ask whatever the gloss level is. Had we been presented a matte or semi-gloss plane finished impeccably (like Fred's Hellcat appears to be), we would've had no qualms about putting it up front where the craftsmanship deserved.

Online Scott Richlen

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2024, 05:51:55 AM »
Quote
I've also worried someone will not see it in the grass and step on it.
    :D Sometimes that even happens to non-camo planes!

Plus, the flat finish would get really hot in the summer sun!

I don't regret building a camoflaged plane, I just won't build another...

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2024, 06:06:24 AM »
Just where do you find the current rules for judging finish?
Ken

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
If I were a betting man (which I am not) I would put my money on the big shiny one.
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Offline Jim Hoffman

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2024, 06:23:59 AM »
Below is the exact verbiage from the Control Line Precision Aerobatics 2024-2025 Rulebook.


10. Appearance.
Models shall be judged for appearance complete and ready to fly. After model has been judged, nothing will be removed from or added to the model which, in the judges’ opinion, changes in any manner the appearance of the model from the way it was when presented for appearance judging. However, during an attempt for official flight after the contestant has begun to crank the engine, if it becomes necessary to remove the propeller spinner for change of propeller, etc., then it is permissible to leave off the spinner for that particular flight. Any damage to the model after judging, or changes that may be made as a result of such damage, will not be cause for loss of appearance points. Appearance judging will take place just before contestant’s first flight. Judges shall exercise prudence in assigning points, and reserve excellent point values for those models which are decidedly above average.

•   Appearance criteria is not explicitly stated.  As a contestant and judge, (IMHO) I link appearance very strongly to workmanship.  Appearance/workmanship includes fits, finish, and pleasing design. Complexity may be used as a discriminator.
•   The Judges Guide within the rule book is silent on appearance.

Online Scott Richlen

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2024, 07:09:17 AM »
Quote
The Judges Guide within the rule book is silent on appearance

Perhaps the Contest Board can generate some language for the Judges Guide that defines Appearance Judging?  Since, in my opinion, we have a current danger of everyone flying "same-old, same-old" models all popped out of the same mold (with the resultant stagnation of design and its associated boredom, loss of appeal, and indifference towards building arts), an emphasis on individuality and uniqueness  be encouraged.  Also, an admonition against solely focusing on shine?

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2024, 07:23:10 AM »
This is a lot of attention focused on a tiny amount of points.

If you did not build the model, it's zero.
If you built it and did a terrible job, it's still at least 12 points.
A well built model gets 16 to 20 points.
This process is an hour-long ritual.

Meanwhile, fifteen 40-point stunts are judged and scored in the ten seconds it takes to fly two laps. 
Well, OK, the judges can take longer to score the landing.
Paul Smith

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2024, 07:28:41 AM »
Perhaps the Contest Board can generate some language for the Judges Guide that defines Appearance Judging?  Since, in my opinion, we have a current danger of everyone flying "same-old, same-old" models all popped out of the same mold (with the resultant stagnation of design and its associated boredom, loss of appeal, and indifference towards building arts), an emphasis on individuality and uniqueness  be encouraged.  Also, an admonition against solely focusing on shine?
y1 y1 y1

As long as we are discussing "matte", do any of your engineering types know if a matte finished airfoil behaves the same as a high gloss?  My limited anecdotal experience says the matte performs better at the same weight.

Ken
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Online Scott Richlen

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2024, 07:33:07 AM »
Quote
This is a lot of attention focused on a tiny amount of points.

True, but what is the point difference at the NATs between 1st place and, say, 5th place?

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2024, 08:25:35 AM »
y1 y1 y1

As long as we are discussing "matte", do any of your engineering types know if a matte finished airfoil behaves the same as a high gloss?  My limited anecdotal experience says the matte performs better at the same weight.

Ken
Now there is a topic.   I have no way to prove it but I've always thought a finish that was anything but glass smooth actually flew a little better.  Maybe it's just Murphy's Law at work but the rushed or casually finished airplanes I've built over the years most always were the best flying ones-even though they might be my last choice to take to appearance judging,  and that can be frustrating.  Some of that I know directly correlated to the finished weight of an airplane with very little finish applied.

Dave
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2024, 08:36:10 AM »
Perhaps the Contest Board can generate some language for the Judges Guide that defines Appearance Judging?  Since, in my opinion, we have a current danger of everyone flying "same-old, same-old" models all popped out of the same mold (with the resultant stagnation of design and its associated boredom, loss of appeal, and indifference towards building arts), an emphasis on individuality and uniqueness  be encouraged.  Also, an admonition against solely focusing on shine?
That was the main argument against the changes way back when to abandon the 40 point appearance system and leave us with where we are today.  Maybe 40 points was too much for a 'flying' event but perhaps cutting the score values in half might have been a better idea.   
If you are interested in trying to change it the path to follow would be writing and submitting a proposal.  Anyone can do that.  Would it re-ignite the drawing board types to create new designs....these days I sort of doubt it,  sorry to say.   

Dave
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Online Trostle

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2024, 09:28:00 AM »
Perhaps the Contest Board can generate some language for the Judges Guide that defines Appearance Judging?  Since, in my opinion, we have a current danger of everyone flying "same-old, same-old" models all popped out of the same mold (with the resultant stagnation of design and its associated boredom, loss of appeal, and indifference towards building arts), an emphasis on individuality and uniqueness  be encouraged.  Also, an admonition against solely focusing on shine?

The Contest Board has been mute on this subject since the rule was changed to the current wording many years ago.  The Contest Board has received absolutely NO comments and NO proposals on this matter for the many years since the current wording was placed in the rule book.  In my opinion, the Contest Board sees no need to change the wording in the rule book or to add anything to the Judges' Guide on the matter of appearance judging.  At least there has been no discussion within the Contest Board on this subject for years.  There was a two-page article years ago published in Stunt News and in Flying Models written by two individuals with more than a few years of experience in the world of competitive Precision Aerobatics as well as judging appearance at the Nationals several times.  This was not written as a proposal to change the rule book or Judges' Guide in any way.  That article received many favorable comments, yet resulted in much loud howling by a few malcontents, many of which no longer participate in this event.  In my opinion, no matter what could be written in the rule book, there will not be a universal acceptance of the wording.  It all boils down to what looks nice to the eyes of the beholder.  If a model "looks nice" (whatever that means), is well built, shows attention to detail, is finished in an "attractive" paint scheme that is "appropriate" for the design, then it will receive more appearance points than a model that does not show any or all of these attributes.

Keith
« Last Edit: November 14, 2024, 10:16:23 PM by Trostle »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2024, 10:16:20 AM »
This is a lot of attention focused on a tiny amount of points.

If you did not build the model, it's zero.
If you built it and did a terrible job, it's still at least 12 points.
A well built model gets 16 to 20 points.
This process is an hour-long ritual.

Meanwhile, fifteen 40-point stunts are judged and scored in the ten seconds it takes to fly two laps. 
Well, OK, the judges can take longer to score the landing.

     Appearance points are usually the difference between who makes the Top 5 and not, and frequently the difference between who makes the Top 20 or not.  Local contests are frequently decided by fractions of a point in Expert.  So a few points make a huge difference.

    In any case, a big part of the appeal of stunt is the building/finishing, and the generally attractive appearance of the models just sitting there on the ground. David started asking an interesting question, it morphed into a thread about how to do it best and what makes the most difference. So I am not sure what you are on about here. 

    Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2024, 10:18:49 AM »
That was the main argument against the changes way back when to abandon the 40 point appearance system and leave us with where we are today.  Maybe 40 points was too much for a 'flying' event but perhaps cutting the score values in half might have been a better idea.   
If you are interested in trying to change it the path to follow would be writing and submitting a proposal.  Anyone can do that.  Would it re-ignite the drawing board types to create new designs....these days I sort of doubt it,  sorry to say.   

  We did cut the points in half. Removing the criterion/categories was a step forward and allowed far more creativity, because you were not restricted or penalized for things the judges didn't think of or the rules didn't consider.

     Brett

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2024, 10:58:47 AM »
The old "40-point system" included a 16-point minimum, so only 24 points were in play. 
Originality (10 points) made it a bad thing to build the plane like the kit box or the magazine article.
Detail (10 points) spawned a huge amount of cockpit detailing and later panel lines & rivets.

The current regime of zero for a non-built model and 20 for a beauty queen brings the full 20 points into play.


Paul Smith

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2024, 11:17:52 AM »
It really IS in the eye of the beholder.   The memory is working a little again.   The two main categories omitted were REALISM and ORIGINALITY.   This sort of wrote off the bulk of the semi-scale trend and any competitive reason to create new designs or perhaps do new and different things.  Sure there are still a few-very few- who still enjoy that part of the hobby.   This may be in part why we still see airplanes that are decades old still working the contest circuit.  Most of the incentive to create new stuff (and go through the teething pains) is not there.   Also not having magazine outlets to publish and sell new designs hasn't helped.  You can tinker around the edges and surely be very creative with paint and finish to be admired but you don't see a handful of new stuff coming out each season like we once did.

Dave
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2024, 01:04:42 PM »
  You can tinker around the edges and surely be very creative with paint and finish to be admired but you don't see a handful of new stuff coming out each season like we once did.

Dave
AMEN!  Had I been active I would have waged a useless struggle to keep the categories.  I was away making our defense contractors wealthy until 1975 and by then I think the 20 point award was already in effect.  IMHO it has been a big mistake. A better change would have been to reduce the number of points, 20 is fine, but keep the categories as definitions of what to consider.

Ken
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Offline M Spencer

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2024, 09:02:25 PM »
Bit of a rant , from observations from afar ;

As an ART FORM , the appearance points are ' recognition ' of effort , endevour , taste , and execution . Something like that, anyway .
The ' Hot Rod Show ' factor . These similarly , some , are performance & appearance . Workmanship , solutions and design .

So as a 8 or ten year old , seeing magazines from the U S A , candy colours , chrome , polishing and ' the sit ' of the thing , be it car , plane ( The Unlimited Race Planes as well as Control Line ,
( Radio hadnt real got beyond ' developing ' till around 1970 - tho tidy , you didnt see ' concours ' ships till pylon got going. Perhaps . ) So they all equated as " custom engineering artwork " .
Then being a nuisanace , thered only be a few that Id consider had done it acceptably from a safe functional view as I would myself .  LL~

As In ones I wouldnt do differant , in part , to those that wqere done purely as show / cruise rather than FUNCTION . Having been subjected to cutting edge nautical stuff from the year Dot.

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SO APPEARANCE is the showroom for the skill & apititude , initiative & creativity of the ' individual ' ( Mine hang it are just to fly , tho try for accuracy in multi facited ways , also to take a few blows .

On the GLOSS / MATTE  debate , thought was Do the scale faded weathered worn used ' SCALE ' finish , then throw eggshell or gloss ' sealant ' clear epoxy over .

As One WAY .

A alternate well finised gloss then weathered and dulled sounds like more trouble .

If ' Finish ' is beyond skin deep , the ' in service ' appearnce , with a ' sealer ' seems the more rational method . ?

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Full Size in service , some interception V1's were ' tuned ' , oversupercharged , and ran 150 octane . Top Line mechanics and flight crew could be likened to competnce re ' Race Crew . Prep & Build .

Tho running Non - Gloss paint , hours spent cleaning & waxing ( sound familiar ) could mean the Chief , if head screwed on , purloined the best fitters & riggers , mechanics and armourers .
So no wonder some were more equal than others . But Also , a polished waxed finish on a ' used ' matte finish plane is NOT a presedent . It could save your life .
One way & another .

Offline M Spencer

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2024, 09:18:05 PM »
Caranuba or Bees Wax used here .


Carnauba Polish is a fast-drying surface finish, rich in carnauba wax and beeswax. Very soft and easy to apply, it hardens quickly and when buffed, ...



Carnauba wax is sourced from the harvested leaves of the carnauba palm tree found in Brazil. Shellac wax is a resin secreted by the lac bug, a small scale insect, onto trees found in Asia. Both of these products contain some of the same components found in the wax naturally produced by the apple.

Those waxy apples were worrying , thought theyed fallen in a drum of it . Some  apples must be waxier than others .

This bloke looks about 12 years old ! Weathered its called , Aeroplane .





Offline kevin king

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2024, 01:39:11 AM »
OR EVEN BETTER USE BOTH. Matte black trim over gloss red for example.

You're welcome.

Online Scott Richlen

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2024, 06:13:30 AM »
Kevin: that photo of the Mustang instantly reminded me of Windy's Ferrari inspired models.  That Mustang could itself be inspiration!

Offline kevin king

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2024, 07:28:13 AM »
Kevin: that photo of the Mustang instantly reminded me of Windy's Ferrari inspired models.  That Mustang could itself be inspiration!
VERY much an inspiration. It's in the cards. I love the look of it. Some Shelby 's have Matte black trim over high gloss black. Beautiful 😍 I should have did the matte effect on this one but too lazy

Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2024, 06:55:03 AM »
It really IS in the eye of the beholder.   The memory is working a little again.   The two main categories omitted were REALISM and ORIGINALITY....    ...Sure there are still a few-very few- who still enjoy that part of the hobby....   
Dave

Dave, this is an excellent point.. It comes back to motivation and what you enjoy.  If you are going after the Walker Cup, and that is a perfectly fine goal and what we are really about - then yes, you have to go all out on the finish.

Brett's point is well made about that often being the deciding factor as to who is in the top 20 let alone top 5.

There is a formula here that works for that. I'm going to use this term, and it is going to sound pejorative, but I don't mean it that way, and say it tongue in cheek: 
- Build a "McStunter."  - Preferably composite for strength/aerodynamic accuracy. Mace Shark comes to mind, or Igor's Max-Bee, which is think is prettier, IMO
- Power it with a BA 3515/710 or PA-75,
- Make it pretty and shiny so it can get in the front row. But fly it like you stole it. Win the Concours and you start to get to worried about dings.
- See the plane as a tool to win, a stunt weapon. Nothing more.

This is what works..

Matte, scale like finishes are cool, but that isn't the formula.. There is an event for that too where that approach is rewarded. But it isn't stunt. Yes, Paul flew and won with his B-17, and Billy flew and won with his P-47. And yes, Todd Lee won 2nd this year with an outstanding P-51 (a shiny one, btw), but again, I think those circumstances are going to be fewer and fewer in between.

But Orestes won, and placed 2nd at the worlds. What did the Chinese fly? What did Marco Valliera fly? It looks a lot like a Mace Shark, to me..

The hobby has refined to the point where all of the non-essentials and less effective ways have been boiled out. The "creative" designs of Old Time Stunt are gone, because there was a formula that was more competitive.. Just like full size Aircraft.. The technology has changed, and tightened the margins of the competition.. And the competition has driven the technology change.

And then go practice your arm off, putting in hundreds or thousands of flights.
And you will have a shot at the top 20, 10 or five, and maybe win the whole thing.

At the last Nats I'm guessing but it seemed to me that Orestes, Paul, David, Todd, Derek, etc, must have flown 20 practice flights each day.. They were there from the time the sun came up to the time it was nearly too dark to fly.

If you want to win, that is how you have to play this game. That's going to be the only way to get past Paul, David and Orestes.. Who have won, what 30 Nats between them?

But if you are at the Nats knowing you have no chance to win, but just love being there for the camaraderie, being "in the game", helping out so that those who are in the hunt can have a well run event, flying your plane the best you can even if you end up in the bottom 20..

And there is nothing wrong with that either: "just love being there for the camaraderie, being "in the game".

Then build whatever you feel like building.. Paint it, detail it so that it makes YOU happy. You put all of that effort, and cost, and time into the thing, You're the one who is going to have to look at it every day hanging on your wall, you are the one who is going to fly the plane and either look forward to it, and feel like you are 15 again, or end up detesting it and wishing you had done something else with the precious, fleeting time you spent (wasted?) on it.

Yes, it's nice to have the appearance judges validate your efforts.. But if their opinion is the final one and that determines your satisfaction with the product of your efforts then I think you need to re-evaluate, not intending to be unkind, but except for the engine run times, etc, this is a VERY subjective event, and you will drive yourself crazy that way.



Mark

« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 08:31:02 AM by Mark Romanowitz »
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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2024, 01:29:24 PM »
By the way, I'm going to echo what I'm sure has been said many times...

That is one AMAZING F4F Wildcat.. Quite an achievement and something to be very proud of, regardless how it was appearance judged.

Thanks, Scientifiction for posting the link to see the photos.

Mark

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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2024, 09:55:31 AM »
Shiny finish makes flaws less visible, and matte finish makes flaws more visible. One of our local Experts built a couple of B-17 stunters (one matte and one glossy) and said that matte finish weighs more than gloss. I have zero reason to doubt that.  D>K Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2024, 10:12:17 AM »
Shiny finish makes flaws less visible, and matte finish makes flaws more visible.

   I somewhat dispute that one, even tiny flaws on a shiny finish sparkle and draw excessive attention. Having built many scale models (rocket, plastic airplanes and cars) and shooting Testors Dullcote on a rocket or plastic airplane model is like magic fix-it juice.

     But to my original point - no matter what style you use, *workmanship* is the key, that is the critical matter.

     Brett

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2024, 11:02:13 AM »
y1 y1 y1

As long as we are discussing "matte", do any of your engineering types know if a matte finished airfoil behaves the same as a high gloss?  My limited anecdotal experience says the matte performs better at the same weight.

Ken

Maybe too small difference to notice between a normal matt and glossy (except that matt usually is lighter), but I’m quite sure that more rough surface would be noticeably better in stunt planes, and worth testing.
I spray my free flight wings top surfaces rough, with modern airfoils it’s in many aspects better than smooth with strip turbulators. But there is no beauty points in free flight. L
« Last Edit: December 09, 2024, 11:24:47 AM by Lauri Malila »

Offline M Spencer

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Re: Matte flat finishes.
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2024, 08:39:26 PM »
Daubing our silver Furies with brown and green  camouflage war paint.
A Fury in perfect trim might reach 210 m.p.h. The weight and skin friction
of its warpaint slowed it by several miles per hour . ( P. 148  Abrv. )








at the time of Chamberlains ' peace in our time ' address , THESE were all they had to knock down Hiekles , Dorniers & Messerschmidts .  %^@

https://www.key.aero/article/caesar-hull-hurricane-wizard


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