making ACCURATE 60' braided lines

[DanielGelinas]

or 70' or 52'...

Last time I made my braided 60' lines there was more than an inch difference between the two. Also had to unwind the lines in my back yard to get kinks out. 

There must be a better way

How do you guys do it accurately without a birds nest of lines all over the place

Do you actually stretch they out side by side?

I want to change to a hardpoint handle.

Many Thanks!

-Dan

[Allan Perret]

Take a look at Stunt News July/Aug 2011.  Some fellow published an article about his super slick line wrapping jig that was specifically designed to address that very issue.   I have used the jig a couple of times and once you get a little experience with using it you can consistently make line sets that are within 1/16" of each other.  I use hardpoint handles and can swap out line sets without having to make any neutral adjustments.   If you are a serious stunt flyer and are not wrapping your line terminations, you should be..  If you are not a PAMPA member,  join up and you will be able to download the back issues.

PS.  The jig was also designed to safely wrap solid lines and wing leadout terminations.  Far as solids go, only Experts need apply.

[Tim Wescott]

I think I joined PAMPA just in time to miss that issue, so I don't know if my way is any better, or if it isn't just the same thing, only different enough to not work with solid lines:

I use a board that has a pair of 6" sections of 4" PVC drain pipe epoxied on to it.  The sections are spaced apart such that one wrap around them equals five feet (plus or minus something like 1/16".  Being an engineer I spent about half an hour calculating everything, with factors of pi and 1/2, and all sorts of stuff flying around.  Then I marked my board, carefully set my posts, measured it just to make sure, then adjusted things to match the tape measure instead of the obviously wrong calculations). 

There's a headless nail (actually a sharpened bit of music wire) driven into the board half way between the posts.

I put an end on a line, put it on the peg, wrap around the posts 12 times, then put an end on the line while the end is hooked onto the post (that's a bit of a trick, but it works.

Then I do it again, only I go the other direction (this is to make unwrapping easier).

As long as you wrap the line neatly around the posts with no overlap, you get lines that match up to a hair.  As long as you wind the second line in the opposite direction, you can take the two middle ends off of the peg, put the last one back on, then wind the lines neatly on a reel.  All of this in the comfort of your own shop, instead of out in your gravel driveway, grinding your lines into the dirt and goodness knows what into your lines.

Oh -- and don't lose count.  I don't have to imagine the frustration of making up a line set with one 60' and one 55'.  For the second time.  In a row.  If you count carefully, you can imagine it and never have to live it.

[FLOYD CARTER]

I'm fortunate to have a back patio with a continuous seating bench about 70' long.  I put  4p nail in the bench, attach the finished end of the lines on the nail and string both lines out to my other nail, which is accurately measured to eye-to-eye length needed.  Wrapping the loose ends while still on the 2nd nail prevents any error.  My lines are easily within 1/16" equal.  Floyd

[Allan Perret]

I think I joined PAMPA just in time to miss that issue, so I don't know if my way is any better, or if it isn't just the same thing, only different enough to not work with solid lines:

I use a board that has a pair of 6" sections of 4" PVC drain pipe epoxied on to it.  The sections are spaced apart such that one wrap around them equals five feet (plus or minus something like 1/16".  Being an engineer I spent about half an hour calculating everything, with factors of pi and 1/2, and all sorts of stuff flying around.  Then I marked my board, carefully set my posts, measured it just to make sure, then adjusted things to match the tape measure instead of the obviously wrong calculations). 

There's a headless nail (actually a sharpened bit of music wire) driven into the board half way between the posts.

I put an end on a line, put it on the peg, wrap around the posts 12 times, then put an end on the line while the end is hooked onto the post (that's a bit of a trick, but it works.

Then I do it again, only I go the other direction (this is to make unwrapping easier).

As long as you wrap the line neatly around the posts with no overlap, you get lines that match up to a hair.  As long as you wind the second line in the opposite direction, you can take the two middle ends off of the peg, put the last one back on, then wind the lines neatly on a reel.  All of this in the comfort of your own shop, instead of out in your gravel driveway, grinding your lines into the dirt and goodness knows what into your lines.

Oh -- and don't lose count.  I don't have to imagine the frustration of making up a line set with one 60' and one 55'.  For the second time.  In a row.  If you count carefully, you can imagine it and never have to live it.

I think I understand the description of your jig.  Sounds accurate enough, but only in 5 foot increments.  I make line sets in 1 foot increments.  I have 3 sets of lines available for every plane when I go to a contest, to adjust for wind conditions.
When you made the set of 60 and 55, did you then make a matching set of 55 and 60 

[Garf]

I put a pair of line clips on the chain link fence in my front yard. I take my 1000' spool of line and make up one end, then attach the end to the clip, then reel out 60'+ line, then cut the line. I then make up another end on the spool and repeat. I now have 2 lines 60'+ attached to the fence. Next, stretch both lines and cut them 60'3". Next, make up remaining ends. They end up almost exactly even, at about 60' 1". The trick is to make the cut on both lines at the same time. At this point, I attach a handle and torture test the lines. I have had several crimp failures, and 1 broken line over the years.

[ash]

I make lines inside at work, which is convenient, but the magic trick is to pull on the lines gently and equally, one on each hand to make sure they are truly the same length, stretch included. With braided lines it's too easy to get a 1/4" difference if you're not paying attention to stretch or snags or a straight path along the ground. Mine are generally well under 1/16" difference and I think most of that is due to variation in wrapping on the eyelet. A more secure fixture at each end would help that.

[Dave Denison]

Tom.

  The description  of your system is a little fuzzy to me.  Could you post a picture or two of the "pin positions"......THANKS.

Dave.
AMA41041

[Paul Taylor]

Allan Perret wrote the article in SN and it is on line so if you are a new PAMPA member you can down load it in a PDF.

Norm Faith also did a article a few years back and told how he took a old set of profile landing gear and made a jig. That is what I use. It is also handy to get one of Jim Lee's wire dispensers.

I make up one end then put a punch in the eyelet and put it in the ground in the yard. Measure out 60 ft and a few extra inches and wrap the other end. Make up another line and pull it out to the same as the other. Put both ends on my jig so they are the same and wrap the other end. I get them real real close.

[richardhfcl]

Gents,

     Though he be far to the South of us, Garf uses the official Chicagoland Circle Cutter line technique.

     You cut the ends at the same time, and, guess what, they are the same length!

     For this, Phillip, you are invited to fly with us at Ned Brown Meadow,  our storied flying site.

     Best regards,

     Richard Ferrell

[Wynn Robins]

I think I joined PAMPA just in time to miss that issue, so I don't know if my way is any better, or if it isn't just the same thing, only different enough to not work with solid lines:

I use a board that has a pair of 6" sections of 4" PVC drain pipe epoxied on to it.  The sections are spaced apart such that one wrap around them equals five feet (plus or minus something like 1/16".  Being an engineer I spent about half an hour calculating everything, with factors of pi and 1/2, and all sorts of stuff flying around.  Then I marked my board, carefully set my posts, measured it just to make sure, then adjusted things to match the tape measure instead of the obviously wrong calculations). 

There's a headless nail (actually a sharpened bit of music wire) driven into the board half way between the posts.

I put an end on a line, put it on the peg, wrap around the posts 12 times, then put an end on the line while the end is hooked onto the post (that's a bit of a trick, but it works.

Then I do it again, only I go the other direction (this is to make unwrapping easier).

As long as you wrap the line neatly around the posts with no overlap, you get lines that match up to a hair.  As long as you wind the second line in the opposite direction, you can take the two middle ends off of the peg, put the last one back on, then wind the lines neatly on a reel.  All of this in the comfort of your own shop, instead of out in your gravel driveway, grinding your lines into the dirt and goodness knows what into your lines.

Oh -- and don't lose count.  I don't have to imagine the frustration of making up a line set with one 60' and one 55'.  For the second time.  In a row.  If you count carefully, you can imagine it and never have to live it.

gotta see a pic of this one Tim!

[dirty dan]

I think I joined PAMPA just in time to miss that issue, so I don't know if my way is any better, or if it isn't just the same thing, only different enough to not work with solid lines:

I use a board that has a pair of 6" sections of 4" PVC drain pipe epoxied on to it.  The sections are spaced apart such that one wrap around them equals five feet (plus or minus something like 1/16".  Being an engineer I spent about half an hour calculating everything, with factors of pi and 1/2, and all sorts of stuff flying around.  Then I marked my board, carefully set my posts, measured it just to make sure, then adjusted things to match the tape measure instead of the obviously wrong calculations). 

There's a headless nail (actually a sharpened bit of music wire) driven into the board half way between the posts.

I put an end on a line, put it on the peg, wrap around the posts 12 times, then put an end on the line while the end is hooked onto the post (that's a bit of a trick, but it works.

Then I do it again, only I go the other direction (this is to make unwrapping easier).

As long as you wrap the line neatly around the posts with no overlap, you get lines that match up to a hair.  As long as you wind the second line in the opposite direction, you can take the two middle ends off of the peg, put the last one back on, then wind the lines neatly on a reel.  All of this in the comfort of your own shop, instead of out in your gravel driveway, grinding your lines into the dirt and goodness knows what into your lines.

Oh -- and don't lose count.  I don't have to imagine the frustration of making up a line set with one 60' and one 55'.  For the second time.  In a row.  If you count carefully, you can imagine it and never have to live it.

More than any other piece of information I have seen the above pretty much explains why Tim's ARF Flite Streak is whacked! At least the lines have not been screwed up...

Dan

[Bob Reeves]

Make up one end of both lines, pull even and mark with Whiteout at desired length. When making free end put whiteout mark on back side of eyelet. Lines will be withen 1/16.

[Tim Wescott]

More than any other piece of information I have seen the above pretty much explains why Tim's ARF Flite Streak is whacked! At least the lines have not been screwed up...

After Eugene I went home and finished moving the CG forward to your recommended spot.  With Howard Rush's suggested line spacing at the handle it flies quite nicely.  I'm pretty sure that the square corners aren't as tight as the guys flying expert, but the straight lines are much more obviously straight, which makes up for a lot.

[DanielGelinas]

Many thanks for the Info Guys!
And I will join PAMPA.
Regards,

-Daniel

[Tim Wescott]

gotta see a pic of this one Tim!

Your wish is my command.

It may not show well, but there's a little stainless steel peg between the 6 and the graduation underneath it.

I think I understand the description of your jig.  Sounds accurate enough, but only in 5 foot increments.  I make line sets in 1 foot increments.  I have 3 sets of lines available for every plane when I go to a contest, to adjust for wind conditions.
When you made the set of 60 and 55, did you then make a matching set of 55 and 60  

Actually, with a few more pegs you could get increments as fine as you want.  That's why the thing is has a ruler drawn out on it -- by selecting starting and stopping pegs, and having pegs that extend past the rollers, you get the length that you want to get.  With pegs at -18, -6 and +18, to go with the one at +6, I could get my 1-foot increments no problem.

[Dave Denison]

Tim.

Thanks for the pictures.....it is true, they are worth a thousand words.!


 Dave.
ama41041

[Allan Perret]

OK Tim, looks like you have the 1" increments covered.
 
I have often thought about using an old bicycle wheel / rim along with the front fork for mounting it to make a winding spool to measure out line lengths when making sets.  Put a tape on the inside edge covering the 55 to 70 foot range.  Been saving the parts for this up in the attic for several years now, a project for one of those rainy days..

I wish someone would come out with a line reel that has a center divider to keep the two lines seperated.

[peabody]

Or, you can order up Tom Morris' lines...

[Brett Buck]

Do you actually stretch they out side by side?

Yes - you were trying to do it from the reel?!  To get them very close, you need to have them laying flat on the ground so that you don't have to try to compensate for the sag of the line that is hanging in the air. I use the Jerry Phelps line-wrapping jig and it works well but you can do it with your fingers. I can routinely get them within about 1/32".

   Brett

[Bill Little]

I tie off an end of each line and put them over a finishing nail.  Then I unreel them and along with a 100' tape measure I mark them with a sharpie at the length I want.  I don't have a jig, but I have a set of jewelers pliers which form "hoops".  I make the hoop with the sharpie mark in the center of where I put the eyelet.  Then I tie them off with my fingers.  I easily get them with in about 1/32nd" like Brett.  Been doing them this way for about 50 years.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[De Hill]

The Tulsa Gluedobber clubhouse has series of  4" wide boards that go around the outside of it. The boards are held on the sides if the building with 90 degree angles, and are about 4 feet off of the ground. The boards are covered with aluminum thanks to the late Bob Creitz . You can make up any legal length of lines without having to get down on the ground. A picture is worth a thousand words,

Elwyn, do you have a picture of this?

[Garf]

Gents,

     Though he be far to the South of us, Garf uses the official Chicagoland Circle Cutter line technique.

     You cut the ends at the same time, and, guess what, they are the same length!

     For this, Phillip, you are invited to fly with us at Ned Brown Meadow,  our storied flying site.

     Best regards,

     Richard Ferrell

Thanks for the invite, but it's a little far for a Sunday flying session.

[Brett Buck]

I wish someone would come out with a line reel that has a center divider to keep the two lines seperated.

  I have one that my father owned when he was a kid.

   Brett

[Allan Perret]

  I have one that my father owned when he was a kid.

   Brett

Just curious, do you know who made it ?

[john e. holliday]

I wish someone would come out with a line reel that has a center divider to keep the two lines seperated.
[/quote]


All you have to do is glue two SIG reels together.  I did that for my carrier lines so the throttle line is rolled up separate.

I am fotunate enough that my back yard is big enough to make a set of lines.  I have two rolls of the bulk .015 cable.  Make up the end on both rolls.   I use the smallest brass or copper tubing I can find.  Run thru the torch to red glow and let cool.   As I use Carl Shoupe's swagging for lines, I put the swag tube on the line.  Slip on a peice of tubing about 1 inch long and bend it around a 1/8 drill bit.   Keeps the line resonably snug so I can swag or wrap.   Hook lines up to plane and roll them out.  I do one line end at the handle.  Again the small tubing keeps the line from moving while you swag or wrap.   Then it is just do the other line.  get the tubing as close to neutral as you can by pulling on the line thru the tubing.   Once set it is just a matter of swag or wrap.   I have lines with neutral setting with out having to adjust the handle this way.

[Dave Denison]

"I wish someone would come out with a line reel that has a center divider to keep the two lines separated."

That seems to have been a problem for years. I've made many of this type of Reel.  Works well, made of Tiger wood and Maple.  Fairly easy if you have a lathe.

  Dave.
ama41041

[Allan Perret]

Nice job with the reel, how did you do the knurl on the spindle ?
I actually do have a lathe, but I also have 20+ sets of lines and I would rather spend my building time on planes where it counts.

[Brett Buck]

Just curious, do you know who made it ?

 No, but I can dig it out and take a picture. It's aluminum and made up of stamped parts, riveted together. It's got so many cuts in the edges that it isn't really usable any more.

   Brett

[Tim Wescott]

I've made many of this type of Reel.  Works well, made of Tiger wood and Maple.  Fairly easy if you have a lathe.

The golfing world will never be the same.

A friend of mine uses a drill press to make these out of scrap pieces of press board.  Not as pretty as yours, but just as round and as functional.

[Dave Denison]

Allan

The Reels were fun to make( I enjoy lathe projects).  The maple handle was "knurled" using the same tool you would use for metal and use a slow feed speed.

Dave.
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