Magnesium

[Randy Ryan]

Anybody ever crockpotted magnesium?

[Dan McEntee]

  Are you talking about an Arden engine? I don't know of any possible down falls. If you have a gunked up magnesium engine, I would try heating it up with a monokote heat gun to loosen the sludge, and then soaking in solvent. Magnesium doesn't age well, and becomes more brittle with age, and I have read where it is advised to not run an Arden or other mag engine for this reason. Other more knowledgeable vintage engine guys will know more. It may or may not change the "color" or look of the engine, and for that reason alone you may not want to try it.
  Good luck and have fun,
    Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

  Are you talking about an Arden engine? I don't know of any possible down falls. If you have a gunked up magnesium engine, I would try heating it up with a monokote heat gun to loosen the sludge, and then soaking in solvent. Magnesium doesn't age well, and becomes more brittle with age, and I have read where it is advised to not run an Arden or other mag engine for this reason. Other more knowledgeable vintage engine guys will know more. It may or may not change the "color" or look of the engine, and for that reason alone you may not want to try it.
  Good luck and have fun,
    Dan McEntee

  Some people are running magnesium cylinder heads, spinners, backplates, etc on PAs to save nose weight, so it's not as narrow a question as you thing.


    Brett

[BillP]

I've never crockpotted one but the Type I VW engine blocks were magnesium. Their main downside was getting brittle. Having owned a couple early Beetles in my youth and running them hard...they are still pretty durable. If they catch on fire it's all over though...but I wouldn't think crockpot heat and antifreeze would be a problem.   

bp

[Dan McEntee]

  Some people are running magnesium cylinder heads, spinners, backplates, etc on PAs to save nose weight, so it's not as narrow a question as you thing.


    Brett

     Yeah, with today's modern alloys. And they are of current manufacture. I'm referring to 40,50, and 60 year old engines and parts. Magnesium cases were common on dirt bike engines in the 70s and 80s and the manufacturers got away from it for those reasons. I mess around with vintage dirt bikes and we try real hard to protect mag engine cases and fork legs. I  have a pound of mag welding rod squirreled away to help me keep my stuff running. Drilling and tapping old magnesium is a real treat!!! As I understand it, in full scale aviation beginning around World War Two, magnesium parts on airplanes were being eliminated and replaced with aluminum in part for this reason, and for the potential fire hazard if it burned. I think Ardens were made with a pretty low quality grade magnesium also, and in just cruising through old time free flight competition coverages in the magazines, you don't see guys running Ardens. I think there were one or two other vintage engines made with mag parts, but I can't remember them right off hand and they weren't high profile manufacturers. Using the metal in small parts here and there and aren't a major portion of the completed structure does present some weight savings. As far as using them in today's engines, no problem, but it will be interesting to see how the metal is 50 years from now, if any of us are still around.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Randy Ryan]

 Some people are running magnesium cylinder heads, spinners, backplates, etc on PAs to save nose weight, so it's not as narrow a question as you thing.


    Brett

     Yeah, with today's modern alloys. And they are of current manufacture. I'm referring to 40,50, and 60 year old engines and parts. Magnesium cases were common on dirt bike engines in the 70s and 80s and the manufacturers got away from it for those reasons. I mess around with vintage dirt bikes and we try real hard to protect mag engine cases and fork legs. I  have a pound of mag welding rod squirreled away to help me keep my stuff running. Drilling and tapping old magnesium is a real treat!!! As I understand it, in full scale aviation beginning around World War Two, magnesium parts on airplanes were being eliminated and replaced with aluminum in part for this reason, and for the potential fire hazard if it burned. I think Ardens were made with a pretty low quality grade magnesium also, and in just cruising through old time free flight competition coverages in the magazines, you don't see guys running Ardens. I think there were one or two other vintage engines made with mag parts, but I can't remember them right off hand and they weren't high profile manufacturers. Using the metal in small parts here and there and aren't a major portion of the completed structure does present some weight savings. As far as using them in today's engines, no problem, but it will be interesting to see how the metal is 50 years from now, if any of us are still around.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

There are some guys that run Ardens, but they run the ones that already have been broken years ago. Even with todays alloys the tiny fragile mounts would be in jeopardy. The Ardens we run have aluminum rings around the case flange to mount to. They are very sweet runners but a nasty exhaust note, very sharp and to some painful, especially run glow. I am crock potting a case now, a junk one. If it doesn't damage it then I intend to soda blast it to see if I can bring some semblance of the original color back. Then a parafin dip to seal it. I'm currently restoring an ED Racer and if the process works on the junk I'll give it a try on the ED.

[Dan McEntee]

     Keep us posted, I'm interested in the results. I'm curious if it changes that distinct color the case castings have. I think I have one Arden in a box somewhere, and never tried to run it. I think I heard the story that on ignition, they were OK, but when the glow conversions came along, they couldn't stand the strain sometime, and that was before nitro came along. Do I have that right?  For a vintage engine, I think they had a sort of modern look to them, kind of ahead of their time.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Jim Thomerson]

I've flown a couple of glow Arden 19s on CL airplanes over the years, and had no complaints.  Actually, as I recall, one I had a long time ago had the mount broken on one side.  I drilled a couple of holes and bolted it on.  No problem. 

I've been told, by a knowledgable person, to use WD-40 on magnesium cases to keep them looking good.   

[Jim Kraft]

If I remember right I think the Baby Cyclones were also magnesium and got brittle over the years. Don't know that I have ever seen one in a model, but have seen them running on the bench.

[Randy Ryan]

    Keep us posted, I'm interested in the results. I'm curious if it changes that distinct color the case castings have. I think I have one Arden in a box somewhere, and never tried to run it. I think I heard the story that on ignition, they were OK, but when the glow conversions came along, they couldn't stand the strain sometime, and that was before nitro came along. Do I have that right?  For a vintage engine, I think they had a sort of modern look to them, kind of ahead of their time.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

The Ardens were good runners and Ray Arden was well ahead of his time with it. For those who don't know, Ray Arden invented or rather discovered (the principal) and manufactured the first glow plugs.

The .099 & .19 were ball bearing as well. Looking one over the tecnology is amazing but they are a production nightmare, even the point pivot is held in with a tiny TINY screw through the magnesium timer housing.  
 
http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/arden.htm

[Randy Ryan]

I've flown a couple of glow Arden 19s on CL airplanes over the years, and had no complaints.  Actually, as I recall, one I had a long time ago had the mount broken on one side.  I drilled a couple of holes and bolted it on.  No problem. 

I've been told, by a knowledgable person, to use WD-40 on magnesium cases to keep them looking good.   

Jim, Wow, WD-40. Not sure who your person is but WD-40 is a great corrosion starter. It was intended as a rust penetrant and does that pretty well, but it left without being oiled, it will rust up worse than it started. I heard of a guy one one of the forums that "pickled" a sewing machine for storage with WD-40 and when he went back to get it, it was totally siezed, unrepairable. Myown experience with the stuff has led to it being banished from my shop altogether. The best and oldest way to preserve mag is to grease it, I am going to experiment with parafin dipping as a sealant. I've done allot of restoration work and have develped some pretty good processes for restoring various metal finishes.

[Randy Ryan]

If I remember right I think the Baby Cyclones were also magnesium and got brittle over the years. Don't know that I have ever seen one in a model, but have seen them running on the bench.

Yes Jim, they were but I thing the issue is that they are some of the earliest made and so there are just fewer left. Mag will eventually corrode away if left. I bought a Mills .75 at Toledo one year that was corroded so badly there were holes in the case. Strangely enough the rest of it was close to new condition. A freind donated a new case, I had to ream the main bearing but the rest was done. It's essentially a new engine. I also have remnants of a Baby Cyke and a replacement aluminum case I intend to build up into a running example.

[Brian Hampton]

This is an ED Racer that was given to me that had sat around in its box for who knows how long? Luckily about 35 years ago someone had given me a Racer crankcase that had been submerged in a flood but I'd never got around to cleaning it up. That one had no corrosion whatsoever.

[FLOYD CARTER]

There is a fellow in TX named Tandy Walker.  He restores magnesium Arden engines so that they shine!  I have his printed tutorial and if you want, I can scan his process and report it here.

I have several Arden engines, and all are in good running condition.  I have only washed them in lacquer thinner for cleaning.  I use anti-freeze on other engines, but haven't tried it on magnesium.

Floyd

[Randy Ryan]

This is an ED Racer that was given to me that had sat around in its box for who knows how long? Luckily about 35 years ago someone had given me a Racer crankcase that had been submerged in a flood but I'd never got around to cleaning it up. That one had no corrosion whatsoever.

WOW What a shame, that's a first model Racer too.

[Randy Ryan]

There is a fellow in TX named Tandy Walker.  He restores magnesium Arden engines so that they shine!  I have his printed tutorial and if you want, I can scan his process and report it here.

I have several Arden engines, and all are in good running condition.  I have only washed them in lacquer thinner for cleaning.  I use anti-freeze on other engines, but haven't tried it on magnesium.

Floyd

Hi Floyd, don't know what you mean by shine but I would be interested in the tutorial. I have a junk case in the crockpot right now, another good one I've been cleaning with a popcicle stick and hard bristle brush. Actually doing a very good job but I'd still like to get it back as close as possible to the original appearance before it discolored, this one is really not too bad. I'm going to try soda blasting on it and see how that works on mag, it does a beautiful job on aluminum. The on thing no one has developed yet is a means of restoring die luster, I've been working on that for years. Getting closer but not banana yet!!!

[rustler]

I have to second the warning about mag. and WD40. I oiled up a brand new mag. nelson and put it in a polythene bag. Couple of years later I had a major de-crud and descale job on my hands. It is ppossible the poly bag had something to do with it also, something about some vapours it might give off.

[RandySmith]

  Some people are running magnesium cylinder heads, spinners, backplates, etc on PAs to save nose weight, so it's not as narrow a question as you thing.


    Brett

Yep and some are even running magnesium cases also

Randy

[pipemakermike]

Hi Floyd, don't know what you mean by shine but I would be interested in the tutorial. I have a junk case in the crockpot right now, another good one I've been cleaning with a popcicle stick and hard bristle brush. Actually doing a very good job but I'd still like to get it back as close as possible to the original appearance before it discolored, this one is really not too bad. I'm going to try soda blasting on it and see how that works on mag, it does a beautiful job on aluminum. The on thing no one has developed yet is a means of restoring die luster, I've been working on that for years. Getting closer but not banana yet!!!

Hi Randy

I have used Tandy Walkers method to clean up a couple of the cases of the Ardens I am intending to get flying.  They do come up well although it is a lot of work.

http://tandysmodelplanes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Arden-Restoration-Article.pdf

[Brett Buck]

Yep and some are even running magnesium cases also

   I think I would rather leave off one coat of paint...

   Brett

[FLOYD CARTER]

Mr. Ryan.  Tandy C. Walker in Arlington, TX, describes himself as a one man "Save the Arden Society."

His 12 page article describes how to restore Arden engines.

First, he completely dis-assembles the engine, something I do not recommend unless you have made many tools to do this without damage to the engine.

Internal parts are cleaned in the usual way, with acetone and WD-40.

Magnesium is cleaned manually with products called "Bar Keeper's Friend" (a powdered cleaner), a silicone product called "Tri-Flow" oil.  Finally a product similar to silver polish called "Never Dull".

He describes the process using Q-tips, toothbrushes, and soft cloths.

Let me again caution you about dismantling an Arden.  You are unlikely to get it apart without breaking something, and all the parts are screwed together, and you must have the correct gaskets to get it together  just right.

You can contact Tandy if necessary.  tandyw@flash.net  (817) 274-9600

[Randy Ryan]

Mr. Ryan.  Tandy C. Walker in Arlington, TX, describes himself as a one man "Save the Arden Society."

His 12 page article describes how to restore Arden engines.

First, he completely dis-assembles the engine, something I do not recommend unless you have made many tools to do this without damage to the engine.

Internal parts are cleaned in the usual way, with acetone and WD-40.

Magnesium is cleaned manually with products called "Bar Keeper's Friend" (a powdered cleaner), a silicone product called "Tri-Flow" oil.  Finally a product similar to silver polish called "Never Dull".

He describes the process using Q-tips, toothbrushes, and soft cloths.

Let me again caution you about dismantling an Arden.  You are unlikely to get it apart without breaking something, and all the parts are screwed together, and you must have the correct gaskets to get it together  just right.

You can contact Tandy if necessary.  tandyw@flash.net  (817) 274-9600

Thanks Floyd, but that isn't the kind of finish they came with, so not good for a restoration. Freshly die cast mag has a dull gray luster which can be seen in some places on must mag cases, I'll get close, but so far I won't get there. BTW I am both a tool maker and engine builder and restorer, I think I can handle it.

The junker came out of the crockpot a while ago, just like an aluminum case, the garp all came off nice with zero change in color, all the oxide is still on it but soda blasting takes it off. However, it does not touch the parent metal so has no brightening effect as hoped. My popcicle stick and bristle brush are so far producing the best results and the good Arden is looking very good so far, the more I rub and brush the lighter it gets but it will stay patchy. I now have the Racer case in the pot and will proceed with the stick and brush treatment when it comes out.

[GGeezer]

Some folks say that cast magnesium becomes brittle with age. The reference material does not mention this as a problem. I suspect that the magnesium alloy used to make early engines was not of the best quality and the engines were always "brittle". Magnesium alloy is actually an excellent  material for making light metal structures. I think smart phone and Ipad frames are cast from magnesium.
It however is a fairly reactive metal and can be affected by water (specially salt water) and the oxygen in the air. In fact, the age produced dark color is a surface oxide that actually protects the metal from corrosion, so it is best to leave it on and not try to make the surface shiny... it will only get dark with time again.

[Dan McEntee]

Yep and some are even running magnesium cases also

Randy

    Hi Randy;
     I'm curious to know if the parts are machined from bar stock or castings? What can you tell us about alloys? My main experience with the metal has been with vintage dirt bike cases and fork legs, welding up cracks, build ups and light machining. The hardest parts has been just finding welding rod in small quantities. Not much is made from magnesium these days, so not much call for repair welding and no one stocks rod. If parts are made from bars stock, how hard is it to get the raw material? Again, just curious about the process.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[RandySmith]

Hi Dan

The ones I was referring to is a cast case that is them machined, but as far as I know all of it is a casting when your talking about magnesium for our use, even the bars are cast
,
Randy

[Steve Fitton]

Yep and some are even running magnesium cases also

Randy

Do they work better than the R-3350's magnesium case? 

[RandySmith]

Do they work better than the R-3350's magnesium case? 

Yes it works Ok but not quite the HP as the Cyclone engine :-)

Randy

[Dan McEntee]

Hi Dan

The ones I was referring to is a cast case that is them machined, but as far as I know all of it is a casting when your talking about magnesium for our use, even the bars are cast
,
Randy

     Magnesium must not be "elastic" enough to make extrusions. Now that I think about it, the welding rod I have looks like they're cast, has some flashing down one side, and you can't get it smaller than 3/32", at least I can't. 
   Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[rustler]

In my reply No. 16 when I said "oiled up" I should have said "oiled up with WD40"!!!!

[FLOYD CARTER]

I forgot to mention.  I have recently restored a pre-war "Mighty Atom" .09 engine with magnesium crankcase and timer. Without thinking, I soaked it in anti-freeze, heated to "warm".  It did not hurt the mag at all.  After drying, I lubed it with spark ignition fuel, containing 70 wt. motor oil.

Floyd

[wwwarbird]

Anybody ever crockpotted magnesium?

 I have not, but I imagine it would take quite some time for it to become tender.

[Dan McEntee]

  .
    I was asked once if I had ever smoked a turkey, and I said, yes. It was a bit hard to get started but once I got it lit it drew pretty good! This was in a Sam's Club when they first opened up. My friend asked me the question when he showed me the meat freezer. I thought the guy behind me was going to pee in his pants!
     HI WAYNE !!!!!
    Dan McEntee

[pipemakermike]

First, he completely dis-assembles the engine, something I do not recommend unless you have made many tools to do this without damage to the engine.

Let me again caution you about dismantling an Arden.  You are unlikely to get it apart without breaking something, and all the parts are screwed together, and you must have the correct gaskets to get it together  just right.

I can second that.  I have now stripped about 10 of these engines.  I have made the necessary tools to make stripping easy.  One piece of advice that I have seen on the web that is wrong is to use heat to free the cylinder head from the barrell.  The head is aluminimum (mostly) and heating it will just make it harder to remove.  I put the assembly into the freezer and the head then unscrews easily!
I have some pictures of the tools on my web page:-
http://www.machineconcepts.co.uk/engines/arden/arden.htm

[Pat]

I run magnesium wheels on a nostalgia front engine dragster. After polish I use Gibbs brand penetrating oil and only polish once a year.

Pat

[Larry Fernandez]

Yep and some are even running magnesium cases also

Randy

So, how much weight does one save by replacing the head and back plate with magnesium components.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[pipemakermike]

So, how much weight does one save by replacing the head and back plate with magnesium components.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

I am also restoring some Bamtam 19s and as a couple of them have aluminimum cases I can say with some authority that a magnesuim Bantam case is 6.2gm lighter than the equivelent aluminimum one.
http://www.machineconcepts.co.uk/engines/bantam/bantam.htm

[FLOYD CARTER]

Some Arden engines also had aluminum cases.  Mine are all mag, and I sort of admire the natural patina.

Floyd

[phil c]

So, how much weight does one save by replacing the head and back plate with magnesium components.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

About 1/3.  If the aluminum head weighs 20gr. a mag head would weigh about 13 gr.

BTW, I have a couple of mag cased Nelson 15's.  They were stored in the basement and developed a lot of discoloration, similar to Brian's ED racer.

[Brett Buck]

So, how much weight does one save by replacing the head and back plate with magnesium components.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

  Maybe 1/2 ounce or so. Not worth the headaches (i.e. continually loosening head bolts as the magnesium "creeps").

    Brett

[don Burke]

So, how much weight does one save by replacing the head and back plate with magnesium components.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Mag is 64.4% re: Aluminum by weight.

[RandySmith]

So, how much weight does one save by replacing the head and back plate with magnesium components.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Bout 1/2 ounce, little more on the Merlin 75,  little less on the Merlin 40

[jim ivey]

why would you need to? a buffing wheel and some jewelers rouge will make it shine but the next day you'll be back to square 1 coatings don't do much to help it will corrode almost instantly

[RandySmith]

I buff my mag spinner, and wax them with auto paste wax, the shine looks like a mirror and last for months

Randy