Looking to buy a new handle any suggestions??

[Michael Graves]

just getting back into flying after a VERY long layoff (22 years). I am wondering with all the wisdom and knowledge on here what are some of the better handles on the market these days. I am flying with a POS old plastis sulivan handle that really sucks. Any info would be greatly helpful. Thanks!

[Matt Colan]

Can't go wrong with a Kaz Minato or a Ted Fancher hardpoint handle.

[peabody]

Returnees are frequently reluctant to try "new fangled" stuff like hard point handles......

If you are looking for a good, safe alternative to the "hot rock", Brodak sells a good wooden copy.....

Brodak also sells hard point handles...

Tom Morris offers several models, from cable/bar pieces to hard point models...

Have fun

[Paul Taylor]

http://brodak.com/c-5-handle-expert-series-w-o-fingergrips.html

[Steve Helmick]

Can't go wrong with a Kaz Minato or a Ted Fancher hardpoint handle.

Might as well start out with the good stuff! Have a handle and set of lines for each plane in inventory. Save yourself the time and wasted fuel to find an accurate neutral setting. Flying tricks with a misadjusted handle is likely to cost you your new plane. Even when you think it's right, you might be wrong! Your buddy or coach can tell you when it's wrong, if they look for it, and you listen to them.   Steve

[Geoff Goodworth]

I've been in the same position—except my lay-off was almost 50 years.

Hard point handle—definitely.

My suggestion is the Tom Morris unbiased hard points. There are two, one with a bar across the front of it with eyebolts as the line attachments and adjustment for line length variation; the other uses Tom's handle style with steel plate attachements like the 'Ted' handles and you move the plate back and forth to adjust for line length.

The price is good and you can get the feel for the handle style and then spend more money if/when you want/need to.

[Doug Knoyle]

I just switched to to a new hardpoint handle two weeks ago.  Everything I've read about the hard-point handle is true - what a difference in connection to the airplane!  My very first impression was that the plane was reading my mind and reacting before I thought I moved the handle.  NICE!

I'm kind of picky and didn't find what I wanted - or better said: what I wanted wasn't/isn't available   ... yes I'm kind of picky.

...so my flyin buddy, and excellent fabricator took a shot at hard-point handle design. It is not different in a layout sense, but has some minor details that we wanted.  It is a light, light, light wood-aluminum sandwich with replaceable wood in the case I want to change the wood shape later. And...very important to me - attention given to never getting slippery from sweat nor suntan lotion.

I need to check with him before posting pics, but we already talked about a limited run ...possibly with consideration for custom sizing for your hand.

I'll update this post tomorrow around Noon Pacific.

[Matt Colan]

I just switched to to a new hardpoint handle two weeks ago.  Everything I've read about the hard-point handle is true - what a difference in connection to the airplane!  My very first impression was that the plane was reading my mind and reacting before I thought I moved the handle.  NICE!

I was using Windy handles for a while, and one plane was having trouble locating the bottoms, it would pop up a lot.  It took a lot of concentration to get the bottom to lock in at 5ft.  I switched to Ted's Hard point handle and the bottoms went right to 5 feet and they locked! It also made the plane much easier to fly, and it felt like I could talk to the plane, just as Doug describes

[Larry Fernandez]

WELCOME BACK MICHAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Suggestion number one; Join PAMPA! In doing so you will get the most out of this wonderful hobby
Suggestion number two; find experienced flyer's in your area.
Suggestion number three; purchase a Fancher type "Hard Point" handle from Carl Shoup of Grand Junction Colorado.

As with any forum you will find a lot of good advice here. But at the same time, there are well meaning individuals who are just plain wrong. You will soon figure out who to listen to.
Use the forum, ask questions and share your experiences with us. We are all still learning as we go.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[john e. holliday]

Every body has their opinioons and that is what is great about this land of ours, the good ole USA.   All the aforementioned advice is good.  You take what you read and try it.  If it works, great, let us know.   Every body flies different and in different atmosphere in this great land.  I have abot every conceivable handle made.   My favorite is the one Bigiron used to make and sell.  It was great for new planes first flights and just plain fun flying, especially on a Bi-Slob.   The hard  point handles are for the competition planes.  A handle for each plane.  You pay your money and try it.   Best is find local modelers and see what they use and fly with them.

[Larry Fernandez]

   The hard  point handles are for the competition planes.

HARD POINT HANDLES ARE NOT JUST FOR COMPETITION PLANES !!!

Jesus, This is exactly what I meant by the advice given on these forums.

Even if you are not a competitive flyer, why would you not want the best performance out of you equipment??(He asks while scratching his head)

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Larry Cunningham]

It makes sense to invest well right away with a good handle. Otherwise, you'll train on a handle that eventually will end up replaced, and you will have to adjust to the change. Plus it's a false economy to buy something you'll have to replace with what you should have bought in the first place.

These hard point handles are excellent, and pretty well last forever.

I agree with Mr. Fernandez - why not opt for the best equipment? It will likely improve the experience.

L.

"All my life, as down an abyss without a bottom, I have been pouring van-loads of
information into the vacancy of oblivion I call my mind." -Logan Pearsall Smith

[Allen Brickhaus]

Might as well start out with the good stuff! Have a handle and set of lines for each plane in inventory. Save yourself the time and wasted fuel to find an accurate neutral setting. Flying tricks with a misadjusted handle is likely to cost you your new plane. Even when you think it's right, you might be wrong! Your buddy or coach can tell you when it's wrong, if they look for it, and you listen to them.   Steve

Also, keep each handle and lines in a separate zip lock bag and note the model it will fly.  No need to put the wrong handle on the right model.  Also leave one clip on the airplane leadout line and the other clip on the opposite handle/line so you cannot hook it up backwards.  I know of at least three models lost this year to pilots hooking up the lines in the wrong manner.

Allen Brickhaus

[Doug Knoyle]

Suggestion number three; purchase a Fancher type "Hard Point" handle from Carl Shoup of Grand Junction Colorado.

Interesting!  Thanks Larry. We were wanting a Fancher handle, but couldn't find it available - so obviously made one.  I'll look up Carl (hopefully his info is here or on the PAMPA site) and order one of his for fun.  I'm having a blast trying all these new toys after getting back into CL.

I am not new to flying though, and I am diggin this (pics attached).  NOTE: These pics were not intended to share, nor are we trying to market a competing handle.  AGAIN, FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE PROBLEMS READING THE ENTIRE MESSAGE BEFORE RESPONDING, We couldn't find what we wanted, so built it - Just like an airplane.

This is handle just off the bench, and has a small list changes to be made - your thoughts are welcome.

The message here is "get a hardppoint handle" - if for nothing else, it just feels better - a lot better!


Cheers,
Doug

[Dick Pacini]

It looks good.  My only comment would be that the staggered holes will require a different line clip if minor adjustments are made to line spacing.  Are the plates slotted for overhang adjustment?

[proparc]

This is handle is just off the bench, and has a small list changes to be made - your thoughts are welcome.

The message here is get a hardppoint handle - if for nothing else it just feels better - a lot better!

Cheers,
Doug

Whose handle is this, and how much does it cost? This looks good!

[Dave Denison]

Hi Guys.

That's my fat little hand there.  I've producted, three handles of this prototype design. The "basic design" is a conglomeration/copy of many of the main ideas from the Hardpoint handles I've seen.  As Doug mentioned, we wanted a Hardpoint type, but we were not able to quickly find something to our liking.

 These came out nice and light ( Alum. is 6061-T6), with a minimum of wood and a sticky gauze type wrap (used on tennis racket handles). The sliders(both top and bottom) have a full 3/8" of travel for adjustment. All fasteners are aircraft grade 8.
Attached is a close up of the Line Clip being used.  This Clip is Stainless, 60lbs. test, easy to open and close and remove or move to another hole.  Here is the link   http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Eagle_Claw_Duo_Lock_Snaps_10pk/descpage-ECSNAPS.html.

As far as selling these......who knows.  Do feel free to use the drawing.  Hope this has helped everyone to appreciate what a Hardpoint handle is all about.

Dave.
ama 41041

[Steve Helmick]

IMO, there is no need for adjustable arms...just make sure the arms clear your fingers slightly. I'm also opposed to the zig-zag hole pattern...put 'em inline and as close as you can manage. And I wouldn't use those clips. You really need an assortment of clips of various lengths to adjust for your line making precision. Adjusting the arms (overhang) is not the same, as it changes the response, in addition to the neutral. The lighter the handle, the better it works when line tension is compromised due to power, wind, or piloting skill!  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

No one's mentioned yet that if you go with a non-adjustable hardpoint handle, you'll want to have line clips in a whole bunch of lengths to adjust for neutral.  Lee's machine shop sells a gizmo that makes line clips out of straight wire, and he'll sell you wire to go along with it.

I made myself a similar (but much uglier) gizmo, along with a Fancher-style handle.  The handle isn't special -- it's just made by looking at other handles, and doing the obvious.

The clips will have wire about 40 mils in diameter.  If you drill 1/16" holes you can put them in a straight line 1/10" apart (or 3/32, depending on what you're using to measure with).  1/10" seems to be a perfect compromise between the folks that think you should adjust things by 0.002" at a time, and the folks that will say "Are you sure you have enough holes in that?"

So -- consider that I fly intermediate and size your grain of salt accordingly, but here's a drawing of what I use, along with a picture from the middle of the assembly process, after everything is glued up and drilled for rivets, but before the rivets went in.

[Doug Knoyle]

Sorry for the delay.  Just got back from assisting Dave as he test flew his new rendition of a Cardinal (pic attached) - with the handle you see in the pics - which is the same handle I used at the Stunt-A-Thon -- made good use of the adjustable overhang as we switched from my plane/lines to his.  Our coach (Bruce Hunt) will test his plane, and the handle, tomorrow.  This was the best flyer 'off-the-bench' I've ever experienced (...if I would of had this last weekend at the Stunt-A-Thon ...LOL). Congradulatoins Dave.

IMO, there is no need for adjustable arms...just make sure the arms clear your fingers slightly.

OK, we'll try making one like you suggest.  Now ... I like to feel the back of the overhangs when I slightly straighten my fingers (so does Dave, and Bruce too if I recall correctly).
-What do you like for space in front of your fingers?  Tight? Loose? All the room in the world?
-What is your closed fist width? (make a fist - what is the outside measurement (hold thumb side of your fist up) from the top of your index finger (at the middle knuckle) to the bottom of your pinky (at middle knuckle))

I'm also opposed to the zig-zag hole pattern...put 'em inline and as close as you can manage. And I wouldn't use those clips. You really need an assortment of clips of various lengths to adjust for your line making precision. Adjusting the arms (overhang) is not the same, as it changes the response, in addition to the neutral. The lighter the handle, the better it works when line tension is compromised due to power, wind, or piloting skill!   Steve

-Got it. Stay tuned for pics in a few days.

... how much does it cost? This looks good!

Price being determined.

[keith varley]

I have two suggestions that I have gleaned from making maybe 40 or 50 handles over the years, and many many line clips.  First- leave a small gap between the metal parts and your finger,During some flying conditions there is a buildup of static electricity that just drives you nuts if you make occasional contact with metal.Actually a small arc that wont kill you or anything but sure interferes with you concentration.(This can be eliminated  by wrapping the handle with bare wire to make the ground connection stable rather than intermittent,)
Line clips.---- From my point of view , instead of making or buying a tool to produce the line clips ,and a stock of the  correct wire---why not just go straight to the deluxe solution and buy a set of HELLO KITTY clips from Randy Smiths AERO PRODUCTS,  They are WONDERFUL and are sold in a set of eight with increments of one millimeter.Keith

[Doug Knoyle]

I have two suggestions that I have gleaned from making maybe 40 or 50 handles over the years, and many many line clips.  First- leave a small gap between the metal parts and your finger,During some flying conditions there is a buildup of static electricity that just drives you nuts if you make occasional contact with metal.Actually a small arc that wont kill you or anything but sure interferes with you concentration.(This can be eliminated  by wrapping the handle with bare wire to make the ground connection stable rather than intermittent,)
Line clips.---- From my point of view , instead of making or buying a tool to produce the line clips ,and a stock of the  correct wire---why not just go straight to the deluxe solution and buy a set of HELLO KITTY clips from Randy Smiths AERO PRODUCTS,  They are WONDERFUL and are sold in a set of eight with increments of one millimeter.Keith

I just received a package of Hello Kitty clips to try.  I want the line held at the end of the clip - and the spring does just that. I want a slightly larger size range then what I received in one package, but I'm looking forward to trying them (I haven't even got them out of the package yet). And by the way, they are spendy, but I think will provide what I am looking for.

Other then my wants, those clips Dave is trying are bigger then the pic suggests. Strength is not an issue, they are the easy on your fingers and simplest and quickest to attach I've seen yet.

[Avaiojet]

I need to place Hard Points in a few handles.

Where do you buy the already drilled "L"s?

All my handles have cable.

Charles

[Joe Yau]

I need to place Hard Points in a few handles.

Where do you buy the already drilled "L"s?

All my handles have cable.

Charles

I usually make my own.   Other then marking where the holes will need to go..  all you need is a good 1/16" bit, and a sharp center punch.   

[keith varley]

I have always made my L shaped pieces as they were needed.I have used steel, brass and 6061 aluminum which is a nice weight   saving  but they do wear some, and probably have a life expectancy of close to 1000 flights A couple of the guys here had a bunch of them laser cut from steel, The set-up fee is a bit spendy but it is a nice product,  The HELLO KITTY clips only have 8 mm difference between the longest and the shortest one so you need to be somewhat accurate when making up your lines.
I have recently switched from the Ted Fancher style to the Tom Morris hard point handle, I find it rather more comfortable and the built in finger grips they have make your fingers spread out a bit and seems to me it just may provide a slightly better control because of the wider finger stance. That may be simply nit picking but it does fit me nicely and the price is excellent.  The one with L shaped metal pieces provides you with less overhang than the one with the bar out front.  Keith

[Bill Little]

I went from the E-Z Just (big one not a Hot Rock) to Windy handles to Kaz handles.  I have liked the Kaz handles the best overall but will be using my "Ted Fancher" handles from here on out.  The control is just so much different with out cables!  Mine came directly from Ted, but I believe the ones Carl Shoup makes are identical.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Tim Wescott]

I have used steel, brass and 6061 aluminum which is a nice weight   saving  but they do wear some, and probably have a life expectancy of close to 1000 flights.

Stainless steel looks really pretty.  And (at least the alloy that I have) is a b**ch and a half to drill.

Good to hear about the aluminum -- I may try it when I've worked my way through the stainless sheet that I have, unless I break down and start buying pre-made L's.

[Michael Graves]

WOW!!!!! did not know what can of worms I was opening here! I did not realize there was that many choices to choose from. It looks like i am going to go with the Fancher handle. From what I have read here it seems to be one of the best all around handles out there. This site is the greates H^^t! Everyone (Well almost everyone) is so helpful and friendly! Thanks everyone for all the input!
Mike

[david beazley]

Any pics of the Francher handle? Where does one obtain one?

[Bill Little]

Any pics of the Francher handle? Where does one obtain one?

Hi David,

It looks pretty much like the picture in Tim W's reply #18.

AFAIK, Carl Shoup is the source for them now but I do not have his contact info handy.

Bill

[Joseph Lijoi]

http://brodak.com/handles/brodak-small-adjustable-handle.html

Pretty similar but a bit heavier (and beefier) than the Fancher handle but you don't havee to build it.  There are a lot of handles out there.

[john e. holliday]

Hi David,

It looks pretty much like the picture in Tim W's reply #18.

AFAIK, Carl Shoup is the source for them now but I do not have his contact info handy.

Bill

Do a search in the members section.   That is another thing about being a PAMPA member.  If you are a member all your info is there that you sent in to be a member.

[Bill Little]

Do a search in the members section.   That is another thing about being a PAMPA member.  If you are a member all your info is there that you sent in to be a member.

Hi Doc,

If I knew where my PAMPA Membership Guide is, then I would be fine!  Can't even find an old one........  And as an ADMIN I can certainly search the members area.  But why deny another member of the pleasure of providing the information?  Plus, I am feeling pretty down right now, in a good bit of pain...........  it will pass in a few months.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Steve Helmick]

http://brodak.com/handles/brodak-small-adjustable-handle.html

Pretty similar but a bit heavier (and beefier) than the Fancher handle but you don't havee to build it.  There are a lot of handles out there.

There were a few of these used in the NW when they first came out, but they soon went away. Too many complaints from the helpers carrying the handle into the circle. Must weigh about 8 oz.

My TED handles weigh 60 grams, just a tad over 2 oz. with epoxy finish and "rod handle wrap" for the grip. Sorry the picture is fuzzy; I didn't dig out the tripod. I love these handles. I get the "small", which is a Hot Rock copy. Nice thing about a kit is that you can fiddle with it to fit your hand.  Steve

[John Lindberg]

Like Matt said, the Kaz handle is my favorite, Randy Smith sells them, the Fancher handle is great, it really is light. 

[Matt Colan]

There were a few of these used in the NW when they first came out, but they soon went away. Too many complaints from the helpers carrying the handle into the circle. Must weigh about 8 oz.

My TED handles weigh 60 grams, just a tad over 2 oz. with epoxy finish and "rod handle wrap" for the grip. Sorry the picture is fuzzy; I didn't dig out the tripod. I love these handles. I get the "small", which is a Hot Rock copy. Nice thing about a kit is that you can fiddle with it to fit your hand.  Steve

Hi Steve,

Do you know how much difference there is in size from the small to large Ted handle?

[Michael Graves]

Well I wanted to get a "Fancher" handle, I have sent Carl Shoup a couple of emails with no response. Does anyone know how to get in touch with him so I can buy a couple of his handle kits?
Thanks guys!
Mike

[Steve Helmick]

Hi Steve,

Do you know how much difference there is in size from the small to large Ted handle?

I believe the "large" is 1/2" bigger than the "Hot Rock", but don't quote me on that. I know that it's not the same as the larger size of EZ Just handle. The metal ears are the same size now, which is a good thing for both Carl and us.  If you go to the NATS, just shake hands with Ted, and he can estimate your handle size from that. Steve

[Matt Colan]

I believe the "large" is 1/2" bigger than the "Hot Rock", but don't quote me on that. I know that it's not the same as the larger size of EZ Just handle. The metal ears are the same size now, which is a good thing for both Carl and us.  If you go to the NATS, just shake hands with Ted, and he can estimate your handle size from that. Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks!  The small one fits my hand perfectly! Reason I asked was because my grandfather flew my Oriental Plus with the small handle on it and he couldn't do much with it because his hand hurt because his hand is bigger than mine.

[Balsa Butcher]

Slightly different take here: If you are just getting back in, don't sweat the small stuff. I'd suggest getting a cable handle to start with. Many still use them and if you are used to a hot-rock style handle it will feel more natural until you get your "sea legs" (metaphor, not literal) back.

If you don't mind spending a few bucks for the best consider the Kaz Minato handle which can be purchased from Randy Smith, no assembly necessary. It also comes in a hard point style. Different sizes can be had...talk to Randy and he can tell you how to measure your grip and which one would fit the best.

[Avaiojet]

Michael,

How did you make out?

Did you ever get a handle?

Charles

[Bill Little]

Slightly different take here: If you are just getting back in, don't sweat the small stuff. I'd suggest getting a cable handle to start with. Many still use them and if you are used to a hot-rock style handle it will feel more natural until you get your "sea legs" (metaphor, not literal) back.

If you don't mind spending a few bucks for the best consider the Kaz Minato handle which can be purchased from Randy Smith, no assembly necessary. It also comes in a hard point style. Different sizes can be had...talk to Randy and he can tell you how to measure your grip and which one would fit the best.

Hi Pete,

I am saving up my nickles to get a new Kaz handle from Randy.  I have three Ted handles (don't know what happened to the 4th!) and Aaron and I have some of Kaz' cable handles.  I really like the feel of the Kaz handle.  I use a 100 while Aaron uses the next size down.  To me they have a great feel in the hand.

Bill

[Avaiojet]

Bill,

I need a handle, everyhing I have has cable driven.

That Kaz handle? Hard points or cable? Is there a photo anyplace?

Charles

[Bill Little]

Bill,

I need a handle, everyhing I have has cable driven.

That Kaz handle? Hard points or cable? Is there a photo anyplace?

Charles

Hi Charles,

The Kaz Minato handle comes in either hard point or cable.  They are also available in sizes which I believe are the millimeter distance of the inside portion of the handle.  The distance across your knuckles.  They start at 80 and go up to 100, if I remember correctly.  I believe there are pictures on Randy's site.

Bill

[Avaiojet]

Hi Charles,

The Kaz Minato handle comes in either hard point or cable.  They are also available in sizes which I believe are the millimeter distance of the inside portion of the handle.  The distance across your knuckles.  They start at 80 and go up to 100, if I remember correctly.  I believe there are pictures on Randy's site.Bill

Bill,

Randy Smith?

Where's the site?

Thanks,

Charles

[Bill Little]

Yep, Randy Smith.  A link to his site: http://www.aeroproduct.net/

Click on "new products" and scroll down.  Both styles are shown.

Bill

[Avaiojet]

Bill,

Thanks for that.

Nice looking handle and priced fairly.

Those "L" hard spots. Are they sold without the handle by anyone? I think I remember someone saying they were available.

With those, I could alter two handles.

Charles

[Bill Little]

Charles,

I have not heard of them being available separately, but I would like some if they are.  Handles are easy enough to make.........

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[dirty dan]

Bill,

Thanks for that.

Nice looking handle and priced fairly.

Those "L" hard spots. Are they sold without the handle by anyone? I think I remember someone saying they were available.

With those, I could alter two handles.

Charles

Aviojive,

Hard points, not hard spots.

Adapting metal arms to existing handles regarded as false economy. And might not even be safe.

The best bet is to just buy complete handles whether the Fancher handles from Carl Shoup (my preference) or Kaz's handles from Randy Smith and I admit the latter do look real nice plus there are locals having good success with them.

As a more general comment I would like to suggest that folk not go for a loose fit on their hand. Snug is better. My hands are a bit too large for Carl's standard handle, the large is too big. So in assembling the standard units I sand in some clearance while going for the preferred snug fit.

Dan

[Avaiojet]

Dan,

Noted! Thanks for the info.

Funny guy, I saw your loose. Thanks for that also.

Charles