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  • November 20, 2017, 10:06:40 AM

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Author Topic: Looking for some advice  (Read 809 times)

Online ROOTBEARD

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Looking for some advice
« on: September 12, 2017, 07:38:50 PM »
Ok so here is where I'm at on the makeover.
After removing most of the paint I removed 4.9oz from the plane.
I put all the hardware back on the plane and it weighs 48.9oz. Uggg
The only good thing is it now balances closer to the CG.
I'm thinking I have a few options.

1. Start putting lighting holes in the fuse and control surfaces?

2. Remove covering from wing and stab and prep for UltraKote?

3. Just paint it and go as easy as I know how on the paint and hope it does not get tail heavy again.

All input welcomed.
Thanks



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Paul

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Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2017, 09:24:09 PM »
Paint it SILVER , as it covers best so you need less . And buy a Heavier Spinner . LL~

Wind's advice is , for the underside , when it looks like it needs one more coat , stop there .
So youd get away with 3 on top , light base , cover coat , rub back , and mist coat - thin .

Ive used Auto Acrylic thrown in Nitrate , 30 or 40 % maybe , then plenty of thinners. Highly Scientific .  >:( Not .
Some flash G M Silver fine metallic .

You can get way carried away over weight conciousness . and a C G is arbitory - you can vary it a bit & vary elevator ration maybe .

They rattle on about additive , some soap stuff , for sanding with 600 or 1200 , so the paper wont clog .
Whadareya thryn tado , win Concourse or somthin . It'd be lighter with one coat of clear , as is . If performance was the prime objective . %^@

So if your putting on three more coats of butrate , having the colour in them should pretty much cover it , with a few days between coats to gass off .

NOTE : finishing is not my Forte , so quick & simple . Costs a fortune getting all sorts of fancy colours . Specially when theyre the wrong ones - for a rainy day .
Then the clears all foggy . You get this doing it at 2 am when its raining - out in the shed . LL~ Supposed to e out rubbing back the Typhoon for final silver right now .

Online Motorman

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2017, 10:11:14 PM »
Nice plane. I would just paint it and go easy. Leave the control surfaces and everything stiff and I think it will fly better. I think ultracote would be about the same weight as the dope so why go through all that. The extra weight might be something other than paint so not much you can do but paint it lightly and take what you got. 
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Offline Ty Marcucci

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2017, 10:14:36 PM »
 D>K
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 09:24:21 PM by Ty Marcucci »
Ty Marcucci

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 09:01:10 AM »
Paint the name on the plane on the left wing panel and AMA number on the right in bright red.  make sure you use a beautiful font like Gillies Gothic.

Ink line it including rivets.

Clear coat it (preferably with a flat finish) just enough to protect the ink-lines.

Go fly.

When people  comment on the finish, make sure you talk about how many hours you put into getting a unique finish like that.  You are an artist and you did not want your airplane to look like everyone elses.  Your airplane finish represents the rat-rod genre for model airplanes.  You are leading the "wave"!

Congratulations on your artistic talent and the bravery to break the boundaries of the rest of us "cattle" who go for the "shiny" look.  Yours is reality based!  Everyone else is plastic!  You win the Ron Burns Award for originality!

Offline Richard Imhoff

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 04:39:35 PM »
Back in the late 60's while working for Ford SVO in the funny car program  the engineers were weighing paint, RED was  the lightest, White heaviest, just for the info.
Dick Imhoff  AMA 58502
 
Combat, Racing, Stunt, and big time fun flyer, and Maybe a bit of carrier.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 05:03:15 PM »
what plane is it? sq ins?  wing span?  motor choices?

Randy

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2017, 05:39:11 PM »
Ok so here is where I'm at on the makeover.
After removing most of the paint I removed 4.9oz from the plane.
I put all the hardware back on the plane and it weighs 48.9oz. Uggg
The only good thing is it now balances closer to the CG.
I'm thinking I have a few options.

1. Start putting lighting holes in the fuse and control surfaces?

2. Remove covering from wing and stab and prep for UltraKote?

3. Just paint it and go as easy as I know how on the paint and hope it does not get tail heavy again.

All input welcomed.
Thanks



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Rootbeard,

This doesn't look like a 1/2A ship!  Just curious, what airplane is this and how light do you believe it needs to be to be competitive?

If you're talking a ~49oz "Vector" sized modern, flapped design with a competent modern power train I wouldn't give a second thought to spending hours in the shop trying to cut out a couple of oz of balsa wood expecting to be able to tell the difference during a pattern if it's properly trimmed.

You appear to have a decent base on which to put a couple of coats of  dope, trim and clear coat and still keep it below 55oz. RTF.  If it's straight and the CG is already reasonably close, a properly trimmed ship of that size with any modern, reasonably potent power train will be perfectly capable of 500+ point patterns.

The search for the zero oz stunter is hugely over-rated. Straight, properly powered and well trimmed are far more important than an extra ounce or so less per square foot of wing area.

Paint the puppy and go flyin'.

Ted Fancher

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2017, 06:40:41 PM »
Thanks Ted
Yes this is a Vector. Powered by a PA UL RE 40.
Problem is it was tail heavy at 55+ oz.
When turning for a hour glass or triangle the tail would keep turning putting the plane on its back.

I am hoping to airbrush on some acrylic paint and then a light coat of clear and hope it does not come out tail heavy again.
Paul

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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 07:44:00 AM »
John l told me that my "advice" was mean-spirited and that I was making fun of everyone by calling them lemmings for wanting shiny planes and that I was  S?P

So, my apologies to anyone who took offense, but my suggestion  was serious!

Most everyone wants a beautiful airplane that flies well.  But they need to keep in mind (which you obviously are concerned about) their priorities:
1) the plane must fly well
and
2) the plane must look good

You can have 1) without 2), but you really don't want 2) without 1)

Rat Rods are a big deal in the car world.  So, why not here?  It would be a short-cut to having a plane that flies well and would not add a lot of weight in finish.  Plus, it would be unique and cool!!

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 11:47:26 AM »
Thanks Ted
Yes this is a Vector. Powered by a PA UL RE 40.
Problem is it was tail heavy at 55+ oz.
When turning for a hour glass or triangle the tail would keep turning putting the plane on its back.

I am hoping to airbrush on some acrylic paint and then a light coat of clear and hope it does not come out tail heavy again.

Hi Rootbeard,

Only further comment I'd make would be that the optimum CG location is much more important than gross weight (within reason, of course n1 n1) when it comes to flying the pattern competitively.

After lightening the tail as much as possible while retaining rigidity if it's still tail heavy add nose weight as needed (best way to tell is during the glide...if it wants to float and balloon into the wind etc. it's tail heavy; if you can whip it forever it's probably nose heavy)

If it's gliding fine but is still too sensitive in maneuvers start looking into your adjustable/accessible control systems alternatives.  Most likely this will boil down to narrowing the adjustable line spacing on your handle. 

Be sure, by the way, that your response issue applies to all maneuvers and not just the triangle and hourglass entries!  Don't narrow your investigation to only one possible source of  a problem.

Your comment on response in the triangle and hourglass entries triggers these thoughts;  thus the last couple of paragraphs which follow.  (Please recognize I've no personal knowledge about your skills and/or personal likes/dislikes re posture, neutral position of the handle, etc. and my comments are solely the result of your last sentence limiting concerns to the two most dramatic maneuver entries in the pattern, 120 degree "cornered" entry to those maneuvers.)

A "relaxed" pistol grip style neutral position overbalances the ability of the pilot to rapidly and equally initiate inside versus outside maneuvers.  A lot more "levers" are available to quickly apply up...at the expense of limiting access to "equal" outside inputs.  "Most" top pilots adhere pretty closely to a vertical handle position at neutral...and, as well, utilize a handle with no "bias" in the angularity of the up and down attachment points with respect to the "grip" itself.

It might be worthwhile to evaluate your neutral position and, if you do in fact utilize a significantly biased neutral, consider whether you can adjust to a better/more vertical setting.  The bottom line impact (sorry PW) of any significant amount of bias is the ability to make much more aggressive inside inputs than outside which could exacerbate the triangle/hourglass entries you've mentioned.

Lots of discussion on this topic in Stunthangar.

Again, that was a lot of words that might not even apply to your stance and grip.  I only mentioned it because of nature of the two pitch change excesses you addressed.

Good luck.

Ted

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 12:44:08 PM »
John l told me that my "advice" was mean-spirited and that I was making fun of everyone by calling them lemmings for wanting shiny planes and that I was  S?P

So, my apologies to anyone who took offense, but my suggestion  was serious!

Most everyone wants a beautiful airplane that flies well.  But they need to keep in mind (which you obviously are concerned about) their priorities:
1) the plane must fly well
and
2) the plane must look good

You can have 1) without 2), but you really don't want 2) without 1)

Rat Rods are a big deal in the car world.  So, why not here?  It would be a short-cut to having a plane that flies well and would not add a lot of weight in finish.  Plus, it would be unique and cool!!

It was a thought that entered my mind. Just shoot a little more clear and name it butt ugly. 😝
Paul

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Online ROOTBEARD

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 12:57:11 PM »
Hi Rootbeard,

Only further comment I'd make would be that the optimum CG location is much more important than gross weight (within reason, of course n1 n1) when it comes to flying the pattern competitively.

After lightening the tail as much as possible while retaining rigidity if it's still tail heavy add nose weight as needed (best way to tell is during the glide...if it wants to float and balloon into the wind etc. it's tail heavy; if you can whip it forever it's probably nose heavy)

If it's gliding fine but is still too sensitive in maneuvers start looking into your adjustable/accessible control systems alternatives.  Most likely this will boil down to narrowing the adjustable line spacing on your handle. 

Be sure, by the way, that your response issue applies to all maneuvers and not just the triangle and hourglass entries!  Don't narrow your investigation to only one possible source of  a problem.

Your comment on response in the triangle and hourglass entries triggers these thoughts;  thus the last couple of paragraphs which follow.  (Please recognize I've no personal knowledge about your skills and/or personal likes/dislikes re posture, neutral position of the handle, etc. and my comments are solely the result of your last sentence limiting concerns to the two most dramatic maneuver entries in the pattern, 120 degree "cornered" entry to those maneuvers.)

A "relaxed" pistol grip style neutral position overbalances the ability of the pilot to rapidly and equally initiate inside versus outside maneuvers.  A lot more "levers" are available to quickly apply up...at the expense of limiting access to "equal" outside inputs.  "Most" top pilots adhere pretty closely to a vertical handle position at neutral...and, as well, utilize a handle with no "bias" in the angularity of the up and down attachment points with respect to the "grip" itself.

It might be worthwhile to evaluate your neutral position and, if you do in fact utilize a significantly biased neutral, consider whether you can adjust to a better/more vertical setting.  The bottom line impact (sorry PW) of any significant amount of bias is the ability to make much more aggressive inside inputs than outside which could exacerbate the triangle/hourglass entries you've mentioned.

Lots of discussion on this topic in Stunthangar.

Again, that was a lot of words that might not even apply to your stance and grip.  I only mentioned it because of nature of the two pitch change excesses you addressed.

Good luck.

Ted

Hi Ted
I do fly with a neutral handle. Not an expert level flyer yet have broke 500 barrier a few times.

It seems to glide Ok but a 40 size plane pushing 60oz I think is like trying to put 50lbs of mud in a 5lbs sack.
Just  ain't going to work well.
It would do rounds ok and squares were manageable, the hard turns is where it got a mind of its own. 😜
Paul

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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 01:16:44 PM »
If you can get it back to the 55oz weight finished and in proper balance I think you will be good.  But would consider 55~56 the max to be competitive.
Allan Perret
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Online Matt Colan

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2017, 02:14:57 PM »
If it's grossly tail heavy, try cutting out the center section of the elevators and ribbing it. You will be able to take out a healthy amount of weight off the tail, and at the furthest position back you can go. You can also do the same with the top of the rudder. On my new airplane, I took 8 grams of weight out of the rudder by cutting out the center section and hollowing it.
Matt Colan

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Re: Looking for some advice
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2017, 03:52:51 PM »
Thanks everyone for the feed back.
I will be out of pocket for a week but will update when things change.
Paul

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