Looking for more handles

[Matt Brown]

I’ve decided after flying with many different styles of handles that this is the one that suits me. I really wanted to like the hard point style but I had a few issues that made them less desirable for me. I’d like to find out who sold the one pictured and if they are still available. I’d like to get 3 or 4 new ones. I’d even consider used ones as long as they are the unbiased version.

Thanks, Matt

[Richard McIntyre]

I bought two of these on Ebay a while back they were made by Tom Morris

[Dan McEntee]

I’ve decided after flying with many different styles of handles that this is the one that suits me. I really wanted to like the hard point style but I had a few issues that made them less desirable for me. I’d like to find out who sold the one pictured and if they are still available. I’d like to get 3 or 4 new ones. I’d even consider used ones as long as they are the unbiased version.

Thanks, Matt

    That's  a later Tom Morris handle. I showed him my modified handles that he sold in which I added the sliders for line spacing adjustment and he eventually added those to his line. The unbiased handles he sold like that came along late in his history. He started out with kits like the ones in the other post. They were only 5 bucks for a kit and 20 bucks for a ready to use handle. They are easy enough to make using all hardware store materials and I usually make them 4 or 5 at a time. Center frame from 3/8" thick ply and use any old wood, even hard balsa for the palm pads. Once you make the first one or two you'll have things figured out.
 Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Matt Brown]

    That's  a later Tom Morris handle. I showed him my modified handles that he sold in which I added the sliders for line spacing adjustment and he eventually added those to his line. The unbiased handles he sold like that came along late in his history. He started out with kits like the ones in the other post. They were only 5 bucks for a kit and 20 bucks for a ready to use handle. They are easy enough to make using all hardware store materials and I usually make them 4 or 5 at a time. Center frame from 3/8" thick ply and use any old wood, even hard balsa for the palm pads. Once you make the first one or two you'll have things figured out.
 Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

The woodworking is relatively easy. The nylon sliders and milling the slots for them are the reason I’d rather buy than make. If I was still working for a living the aluminum front part would be a quick and easy piece to machine on several of the CNC mills I had at my disposal. Machine access is my only regret about retiring!

Matt

[Dan McEntee]

The woodworking is relatively easy. The nylon sliders and milling the slots for them are the reason I’d rather buy than make. If I was still working for a living the aluminum front part would be a quick and easy piece to machine on several of the CNC mills I had at my disposal. Machine access is my only regret about retiring!

Matt

      I feel your pain!! i was more or less in the same situation. But I have had to make stuff by hand before, every since I was a kid, so not much different now. Slots can be made in the aluminum bar stock simply by laying out a series of holes close together and accurately drilling them, then cleaning up the slot with a Dremel tool and files. The sliders can be made from aluminum also. Instead of a flat bar I mostly the aluminum channel that most hardware store carry and it has a 1/4" wide inside dimension so the sliders can just be made from square stock. And just like if you were in the machine shop, once you get set up to make parts, it's easier to make several of each. Just let your imagination wonder a bit while you walk around the aisles of the hardware store looking at everything they have to see what kind of cross over use you can use things for.. Hardware store usually even carry 1/16" cable but it's pretty stiff, so the last batch or two of handles I have been looking at different bicycle control cables for brakes and shifters. Some of those are pretty loose and limber and are easy to work with. There is always a way to get the job done!!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[John Rist]

The handle in your post does not have up/down bias. Brodak has lots of them.

https://brodak.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=handle

[Tim Wescott]

Machine access is my only regret about retiring!

At least once a year, and sometimes more than once a month, I find myself looking at ads for used milling machines or teeny milling machines, sighing over the price, and yet again not buying one.

Manual, not CNC.  I'm crazy, not insane.

[Brent Williams]

Here's something totally different. 2mm carbon fiber plate, Kevlar braided cable handle concept. I still need to attach the angle aluminum end brackets and delrin cable sliders.  Pretty easy buildup and very light.

I got started last year on this Kevlar cable handle prototype after noticing a local person struggle with the hardpoint handle approach.  Juggling line clips to manage neutral was not really working well with this person. Traiin had posted pictures of his carbon/Kevlar cable handle, but I took a bit different approach with my concept.  I should make some time to finish the handle and test it out. 

[Matt Brown]

Here's something totally different. 2mm carbon fiber plate, Kevlar braided cable handle concept. I still need to attach the angle aluminum end brackets and delrin cable sliders.  Pretty easy buildup and very light.

I got started on this Kevlar cable handle concept last year after seeing pictures of Traiin's carbon/Kevlar handle.  Locally, I was noticing a person struggle with the hardpoint handle approach.  Juggling line clips to manage neutral was not really working well with this person. I got busy with the upcoming Vegas contest prep, control hardware builds and then winter set in. I set it aside and promptly forgot about it for many months.  Time to finish the handle and test it out.

The clips for neutral is one of my issues with the hard points. I’ve also had the clips “lock over” on the handle when using a lot of body English. That didn’t fare well but it was on a beater sport plane. It “should” never happen on a PA plane but it did open my eyes to the possibility.
On your carbon plate handle, are you adding a front guide plate to make the cable spread adjustable?

Matt

[Matt Brown]

At least once a year, and sometimes more than once a month, I find myself looking at ads for used milling machines or teeny milling machines, sighing over the price, and yet again not buying one.

Manual, not CNC.  I'm crazy, not insane.

A buddy has a couple lathes and a mill that he has offered to sell me. They were hid dad’s who passed about 8-10 years ago. We just need to find a weekend where we can meet up at his dad’s farm to dig them out of the barn. I’m hopeful they aren’t too rusty! The little lathe is an old Craftsman. Not sure what the big lathe is. The mill is a Bridgeport clone.
I had hoped we would have gotten this done by now.
Matt

[Brent Williams]

Yes.  My plan is to use slotted angle aluminum brackets riveted to the carbon plate. I may make provisions for overhang adjustments, but the prototype will be fixed at the minimum overhang.  3/16" thick Delrin slider blocks will guide the Kevlar cable and allow line spacing adjustments. I'll thread the delrin slider blocks for 2-56 or 4-40.  Aluminum slider blocks may be used if I don't like the performance of the delrin.

Kevlar cable *should offer a pretty **worry-free lifespan vs traditional braided steel cable.  If the Kevlar length is kept at a reasonable minimum, then the spring and stretch effects present in all cable handles should hopefully be quite low.

  * = Might (or might not), potentially, possibly, ect. Colloquial use of "should". *
** = Can anything be truly worry-free? No.**

[Howard Rush]

Kevlar cable should offer a pretty worry free lifespan vs traditional braided steel cable.

Oh?

[Brent Williams]

Oh?

Good catch and thank you. This is the less declarative version.

I googled Kevlar cord, proceeded on to Amazon and read about a few properties which I assumed looked useful in this application.  Caveat Emptor.
https://www.emmakites.com/collections/kevlar-line-1/products/red-kevlar-cords?variant=44034529263812

These properties of Kevlar looked to be potentially beneficial in my application:
- The general *floppiness* of braided Kevlar with amazing tensile strength versus a similar diameter of much more *sproingy* twisted stainless wire rope.  (* = industry jargon terms...)
I emailed the linked vendor regarding tensile strength, "For our 550lb Dupont Kevlar, the working load limit is rated at 110lb. When a tensile load of 100lb is applied on this 550lb breaking strength cord, it stretches less than 1%."
- The abrasion resistance of this Kevlar cord is also reported to be excellent. They advertise this stuff for use as a pull saw for cutting tree branches. This is where I hope Kevlar would have a decent chance of being less susceptible to flex related breaking vs wire rope.   If I am speaking erroneously on this topic, let me know.  Rapid unscheduled disassembly of the handle and the aircraft is not a desired outcome.

I bought a roll of the red 550lb Kevlar last year and retrofitted an old cable handle.  It has seemed to work ok flying a variety of 30- 65oz planes.  I can't personally comment on the long-term durability of Kevlar just yet, as one partial season of use is certainly not a lot, and I usually use my hardpoint stuff anyway.  Traiin has used Kevlar for several seasons on his handles and seems to really like it.

[Steven Kientz]

matt, you should pick a handle up at Brodaks and then customize the grip to your liking.
Steve K.

[Howard Rush]

I’d worry about Kevlar abrasion. Looks like you have Kevlar going through a hole in carbon composite. I would have that in the open so you could monitor it.

[Steve Helmick]

Hard point handles are awesome, and clips are not a problem with Jim Lee's clip bending tool and wire. NOT that hard to work with. I'd suggest making clips no more than 1/4" longer than the factory clips...which I didn't do. I went full gonzo and made clips way longer than I could ever need, wasting a lot of wire. Making up lines within 1/4" of equal is not hard.

I am a firm believer in using 3 factory clips from Sullivan or Brodak and one custom clip, made at home. I put two factory clips on the airplane end (leave one on the plane and one on one line) and the oddball and one factory clip on the handle. I hook the lines to the plane first and unspool. The airplane stays put nicely, so you're not dragging your spiffy new handle across the pavement or dirt. The two clips stay on the handle. As an added bonus, you can wind up your lines and park the spool next to the wingtip between rounds and eliminate the damage from getting them stepped on.

Some years ago, I wangled a CF blank handle core from the Dreaded Canadian Stunt Team and made a nice handle from that. See the attached picture. It's a little fuzzy from use. Finish is 'finishing epoxy' with vinyl fishing rod handle wrap.
I've also used Brent's "TED" handle kits and have been very happy with those, same finish and handle wrap.  Steve   

[Brent Williams]

Ah yes, Carbon hardpoint handles handles are quite nice.  I made this one last year.
One gripe is the thickness of the carbon and changing the clips.  That is not my favorite feature.  I am building a new bending jig for slightly enlarged "Hello Kitty" style clips to fix that gripe.

[Brett Buck]

Ah yes, Carbon hardpoint handles handles are quite nice.  I made this one last year.
One gripe is the thickness of the carbon and changing the clips.  That is not my favorite feature.  I am building a new bending jig for slightly enlarged "Hello Kitty" style clips to fix that gripe.

      Hello Kitty clips are already huge! 

      Might I suggest that you make the lengths in very fine increments, with differences around 1/64 or at most 1/32.

      Brett

[Brent Williams]

Hi Brett, when I find motivation to get around to it, the first experiments will be focused on making "hello kitty" style clips with a larger end radius.  To do this, I'll try bending the clips around a 5/16 dowel pin for just a bit more wiggle room on the carbon handle.  The ultra-resolution lengths you mentioned could be done if the results of the clip tests produce anything worthwhile and repeatable.

I do know that upon request, Jim Lee offers the traditional clip bender tool with pins on both sides of the 3/4-16 nut for the 1/32 clip resolution.  Great value for making a few clips, (or many hundreds...)

[frank williams]

http://discovery-aeromodels.com/en/control-line-handles.html

[Matt Brown]

Hi Brett, when I find motivation to get around to it, the first experiments will be focused on making "hello kitty" style clips with a larger end radius.  To do this, I'll try bending the clips around a 5/16 dowel pin for just a bit more wiggle room on the carbon handle.  The ultra-resolution lengths you mentioned could be done if the results of the clip tests produce anything worthwhile and repeatable.

I do know that upon request, Jim Lee offers the traditional clip bender tool with pins on both sides of the 3/4-16 nut for the 1/32 clip resolution.  Great value for making a few clips, (or many hundreds...)

Be aware that the larger end radius of clips are much easier to deform and pull apart under tension. I was trying to use some clips with one end about 5/16 diameter. They would not pass pull test without pulling apart. The bigger radius must have more leverage to allow the wire to deform.

Matt

[Brent Williams]

This is a "Hello Kitty" style line clip.  They were sold by Randy Smith and imported from Kaz Minato in Japan. The end radius loop bend is fully contained and the spring secures the clip from opening.  My project is simply implementing a slightly larger 5/16 end loop on this design.

[Colin McRae]

Brodak sells this style of hard point handle.

[Steve Helmick]

Wow, I'd bet that handle weighs 8+ oz. Even I would say that's too heavy. The heavier the handle, the less you'll feel the model WHEN the lines get light, such as while doing the OH8's in a downdraft.

Some of the CF core handles weigh 15 grams or less...that's a touch over 1/2 oz. Danged Experts...    Steve

PS: I'd like to get a couple more of those CF cores, if Brent or the BC Buds are reading this!

[Colin McRae]

Wow, I'd bet that handle weighs 8+ oz.

The Brodak HP handle weighs 2.1 oz as shown with clips attached.

[Brett Buck]

Be aware that the larger end radius of clips are much easier to deform and pull apart under tension. I was trying to use some clips with one end about 5/16 diameter. They would not pass pull test without pulling apart. The bigger radius must have more leverage to allow the wire to deform.

     I am not sure what you are describing - the wire itself bending? How does that cause it to "pull apart"?  Either the "improved Luxon" Hello Kitty clips or the various McRoscoe-type scissor clips, you would have to unbend the entire end of the clip. Most of then are made of .040 or .050 stainless, I cannot see how that bends or even deflects significantly with 20-ish lbs of load. The Luxons never did that as long as the slider was in place, and they were plated brass .

    Not disputing you, of course, but I can't envision the failure you are describing.

     Brett

[Brett Buck]

The Brodak HP handle weighs 2.1 oz as shown with clips attached.

   For comparison , the carbon plate "Smith Brothers" handle with my custom grip weigh 0.83 ounces, and the Ted handle (original, prototype #2) weighs about 1.1 ounces.

     Brett

[Matt Brown]

     I am not sure what you are describing - the wire itself bending? How does that cause it to "pull apart"?  Either the "improved Luxon" Hello Kitty clips or the various McRoscoe-type scissor clips, you would have to unbend the entire end of the clip. Most of then are made of .040 or .050 stainless, I cannot see how that bends or even deflects significantly with 20-ish lbs of load. The Luxons never did that as long as the slider was in place, and they were plated brass .

    Not disputing you, of course, but I can't envision the failure you are describing.

     Brett

I found these as they looked like the perfect solution for some of my speed limit combat planes that have external controls. The larger diameter loop went on the bellcrank and then the lines attached to the other side. These are made by Eagle Claw and are same diameter wire as the similar clips I’ve used for years. I took a plane out to test fly. Neutral shifted during flight and I was shocked to see the clip barely hanging onto the bellcrank. It was only the little bend where it goes back straight to the slider piece holding it in. After that, I did some pull tests. These would pop open usually just under 20lbs. I held the bigger diameter loop in a vise and pulled the small loop and it would usually take over 50lbs to pop open the small side.

Matt

[Brett Buck]

I found these as they looked like the perfect solution for some of my speed limit combat planes that have external controls. The larger diameter loop went on the bellcrank and then the lines attached to the other side. These are made by Eagle Claw and are same diameter wire as the similar clips I’ve used for years. I took a plane out to test fly. Neutral shifted during flight and I was shocked to see the clip barely hanging onto the bellcrank. It was only the little bend where it goes back straight to the slider piece holding it in. After that, I did some pull tests. These would pop open usually just under 20lbs. I held the bigger diameter loop in a vise and pulled the small loop and it would usually take over 50lbs to pop open the small side.

Matt

      That's interesting. So it is an otherwise standard Luxon clip with one end bigger than another, and presumably the same plated brass. So, it straightened the big end bends  enough to pull it out of the slider?  Another reason not to use Luxon clips.

       I think that sort of failure is almost inconceivable with a Hello Kitty clip, since the spring goes all the way to the loop, and, the material is usually something like .040 stainless.

     Brett