Looking for a free flight site.

[frank mccune]

     Hello:

     Can someone direct me to a site similar to Stunt Hanger that features Free Flight airplanes?

     Tia,

     Frank

[Motorman]

Do you mean where rocket scientists argue about rubber bands?

[Dave_Trible]

National Free Flight Society
and
Society of Antique Modelers

Dave

[George Grossardt]

NFFS site is a waste of time.  Very few posts.

There really isn’t anything like Stunthanger for FF. 

[Wayne Collier]

Do you mean where rocket scientists argue about rubber bands?

No joke. That sounds so fun. I wish someone had taught me about rubber bands 50 years ago. I could have had much better flights when I was still capable of chasing down airplanes.

[Brett Buck]

Do you mean where rocket scientists argue about rubber bands?

  I suppose you mean guys like my late friend and office-mate George Xenakis, who was indeed a "rocket scientist" and aerospace component REE (Responsible Electrical Engineer) for 40 years on nationally-critical programs, and also FAI CIAM rep and many-time Wakefield WC Team member?  Yes, however could we learn anything important from person like that?

   Successful Wakefield competitors do indeed very carefully measure and test their rubber, and track it down to the batch number. That's what is required to be successful. It does take advanced knowledge of material physics and engineering, which, curiously, are also a  beneficial skill set and interest to aerospace engineering. Wakefield is one of the most technically sophisticated of modeling competition endeavors of them all, maybe only matched by indoor.

  If your comment is on the triviality of Wakefield as a human endeavor, then agreed - but the very same thing applies to CL Stunt, with the same sort of participants and the same sort of fundamentally trivial nature.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

     Hello:

     Can someone direct me to a site similar to Stunt Hanger that features Free Flight airplanes?

   I used to be on their Wakefield  LISTSERV, but that shut down a long time ago, and since I have lost contact with the main participants. I never saw anything close to RCO/Stuka Stunt/Stunthangar or even the old Compuserve forum for general free-flight disucssion.

  I imagine they have gone to facebook but have no idea where to look or what to look for, and I don't know any of the participants any more. I also used to be a member of the Oakland Cloud Dusters but have lost contact there, too.

    Brett

[Tim Wescott]

There really isn’t anything like Stunthanger for FF.

erm -- https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum.  Nominally it's FF, RC, and CL, but it's really mostly FF with a little bit of CL and a little bit of stick & tissue RC.

It's a very nice site.  It's my second-biggest time-waster, after this one.

[Dan McEntee]

Do you mean where rocket scientists argue about rubber bands?

      Maybe you make comments like this because you don't have the skill and intellect to understand what it takes to build and successfully fly a free flight model, even the most simple rubber powered models and have it land and then take it home in one piece. You probably have never even tried. Your lack of respect is astounding.

  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Dan Berry]

      Maybe you make comments like this because you don't have the skill and intellect to understand what it takes to build and successfully fly a free flight model, even the most simple rubber powered models and have it land and then take it home in one piece. You probably have never even tried. Your lack of respect is astounding.

  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

Ukie Stunt is so much harder than Free Flight that words fail to adequately explain it.
There is no FF site that correlates to Stunthangar.  At best the FB group is the closest thing and suffers.  Truth be told when a FF guy has an issue he just calls another FF guy and asks what to do.

[John Hammonds]

It's FF Scale and a UK site but this one is updated regularly. (Might not be what you're looking for)..

http://www.ffscale.co.uk/

TTFN
John.

[Ken Culbertson]

Ukie Stunt is so much harder than Free Flight that words fail to adequately explain it.

Sounds like you have never circle towed for 15 minutes in a crowd then run a half mile only to get right back in line to do it again maybe 6 times an event.  Compare that to what we do between flights huddled under a shade tent.  If you are talking difficulty of achieving perfection you may be right.  A 645 is akin to an 18 in golf.  Neither one is ever going to happen.  There was a day when CL and FF were joined at the hip.  Everybody did both and had a blast doing it.  Stunt was what you did to relax between FF Event rounds.

On the thread subject, I thought there was some activity on the LSF forum.  I was wrong, quite dead.

Ken

Ken

[Dan McEntee]

Ukie Stunt is so much harder than Free Flight that words fail to adequately explain it.
There is no FF site that correlates to Stunthangar.  At best the FB group is the closest thing and suffers.  Truth be told when a FF guy has an issue he just calls another FF guy and asks what to do.

     That is what was done before this here internet thing got invented. And there was a HELL of a lot more of us in all the different disciplines, but spread further apart.   Asking friends, reading books and magazines, trial and error. It worked then and will work now.  I don't think stunt is any more harder than building any kind of competitive free flight model. They both just take time to master and a place to fly for practice. Want to try something simple yet difficult? Find yourself a parlor mite or mini-stick plan, build it and then get a one minute flight in your average living room. If you can build and successfully fly free flight models, you learn to build light, straight and how to trim for flight, all needed for C/L stunt. Most of my free flight activities took place back in the 80's and early 90's but I still have my equipment for future use. For now, flying rubber models under the street light at night is quite satisfying. Getting the most from your rubber supply and finding the best cross section and length motor for each model takes some practice and attention to details.

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Ara Dedekian]

erm -- https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum. 

It's a very nice site.  It's my second-biggest time-waster, after this one.

       Agreed on both counts. I always considered Hippocket as the free flight version of Stunthangar. It's an active site. Lots of dedicated, smart and knowledgeable folks contributing to the discussions and build logs on the various classes of FF models. You can get lots of help on the site. I was at a dead end trying to seal the heads on my CO2 motors and got the fix from the Hippocket community. They have an extensive plans section that include some C/L plans.

       Ara

[redout]

There's some activity here :

https://www.rcgroups.com/free-flight-64/

[Dan Berry]

     That is what was done before this here internet thing got invented. And there was a HELL of a lot more of us in all the different disciplines, but spread further apart.   Asking friends, reading books and magazines, trial and error. It worked then and will work now.  I don't think stunt is any more harder than building any kind of competitive free flight model. They both just take time to master and a place to fly for practice. Want to try something simple yet difficult? Find yourself a parlor mite or mini-stick plan, build it and then get a one minute flight in your average living room. If you can build and successfully fly free flight models, you learn to build light, straight and how to trim for flight, all needed for C/L stunt. Most of my free flight activities took place back in the 80's and early 90's but I still have my equipment for future use. For now, flying rubber models under the street light at night is quite satisfying. Getting the most from your rubber supply and finding the best cross section and length motor for each model takes some practice and attention to details.

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

For years I said that FF Rubber Scale was the hardest thing in modelling.
I was wrong.
I have discovered that if you blink at a Stunt plane twice you will need to make adjustment. And that if you make anadjustment it will loead to several more adjustments. Then, the temperature comes up and more things need attention.

In contrast--- with a gas FF plane we pull it out of the box. Start the engine, needle it WFO and check that timer works. And we're ready to fly. Nothing changes. Rubber planes ? Wind them up and launch.  We're not changing props because of the wind. Not changing nitro because of air density. Not adjusting leadouts because ... well, we can so we might as well.

And we also don't intentionally fly straight down at 60 mph.

If anyone reading this wants to win a trophy on Monday FF Nats I can hand you a plane and make you instantly competitive.  No charge. The offer is out  to a certain flyer from Tulsa. I am still leaning on him.

[Dan Berry]

Sounds like you have never circle towed for 15 minutes in a crowd then run a half mile only to get right back in line to do it again maybe 6 times an event.  Compare that to what we do between flights huddled under a shade tent.  If you are talking difficulty of achieving perfection you may be right.  A 645 is akin to an 18 in golf.  Neither one is ever going to happen.  There was a day when CL and FF were joined at the hip.  Everybody did both and had a blast doing it.  Stunt was what you did to relax between FF Event rounds.

On the thread subject, I thought there was some activity on the LSF forum.  I was wrong, quite dead.

Ken

Ken

That's funny. FAI events are buy and fly. Or borrow and fly.  Knowing what to do is unimportant as long as someone adjusts it for you.

[Steve Dwyer]

Two years ago I decided to try my hand at "stick and tissue". I had been invited to a meet held by the National Free Flight Society at Geneseo, NY, and witnessed a grand ascension and came away deciding to build a Comet Phantom Fury given to me by a friend. Airplanes are airplanes but building with 1/16" x 1/16" balsa spars is a challenge in itself and turned out to be an enjoyable break from the usual 40 to 50 oz. plane. The Fury came in around at 2.10 oz. about the norm for a 24" span model. In turn I discovered Easy Built Models for supplies and learned about sizing and braiding rubber motors, blast tubes, nose bearing magnets, shrinking and sealing tissue and finally trial gliding and trimming before a flight. I was impressed with the number of planes that stayed aloft after their rubber power exhausted at the meet. Some remained in the air for several minutes, the longest winning the contest while some departed the area to be lost forever. The Fury on one occasion from a field behind the house ascended, half circled the field, climbed above the neighbors house landing in the yard of the house down the street. The Fury certainly isn't a competition flyer but building it satisfied my curiosity about an area of modeling I have always wanted to try.
Steve

[bob whitney]

SEN@faifreeflight.org

nothing to this free flight stuff. try a 1000 sq,in wing super D with Bunt(3 position stab ) a nelson 65 swinging a 10/3 prop on 50 percent nitro . In 7 seconds after a straight up launch the the stab changes position 3 times and the motor stops .all done with a timer made from an old Tonka Toy. after a 2 min flight a DT brings it back to earth hopefully in one piece. do that 6 times to get 3 best flights. If the stab fails to hit all 3 poison's one time you go home with a basket full of balsa and tissue RAD

[Trostle]

This has gotten a bit off topic, but:

Happiness is watching a gifted, poorly built tow line glider that refuses to respond to any number of adjustments to tow straight and countless other adjustments to get a decent glide, but manages to fall off of a tow, catching a boomer of a thermal and goes out of sight in the slight wind drift towards the Atlantic Ocean, stalling all the way.  Never thought of using a dethermalizer on the thing because of its poor performance.

(This was well before circle tow was invented.)

Keith

[Tim Wescott]

This has gotten a bit off topic, but:

Happiness is watching a gifted, poorly built tow line glider that refuses to respond to any number of adjustments to tow straight and countless other adjustments to get a decent glide, but manages to fall off of a tow, catching a boomer of a thermal and goes out of sight in the slight wind drift towards the Atlantic Ocean, stalling all the way.  Never thought of using a dethermalizer on the thing because of its poor performance.

(This was well before circle tow was invented.)

Keith

So, this is the joy of a really nice free flight session, rolled into the joy of getting rid of a dog?

One of the nicest flights I've had, ever, was a 1-channel RC plane whose receiver died after the motor cut out.  The plane was trimmed for a floating glide, and the rudder was (apparently) pointed straight when the radio crapped out.  So I got to see it coast off beautifully into the sunset.

I've never been able to get a free flight plane fly that well on purpose.

[Brett Buck]

That's funny. FAI events are buy and fly. Or borrow and fly.  Knowing what to do is unimportant as long as someone adjusts it for you.

   Dan - maybe that is how it wound up (...), but I spent an awful lot of time with George X. and some of his buddies (like Bob White) discussing the details of Wakefield, and the level of detail required to understand it is an order of magnitude more complex than anything I know about stunt. This was around the time White was becoming the last world champion using a "simple" model. I am at least also at least passingly familiar with modern versions, Walt Ghio brought a modern Wakefield to a stunt contest to show us.

In stunt, at least you can learn to get very good to borderline competitive knowing nearly nothing aside from rudimentary trim, and just "brute force" learning the physical skills by dint of perseverance.  I saw nothing like that in Wakefield, the actual flying is nearly nothing, but actually understanding how all the details required to make the airplane work (whether you are doing it yourself, or buying it from the Russians) and testing/conditioning the rubber is extremely complex and technical.  Yes, you can just go buy stuff and fly it, but you aren't going to be around by the end of the round without knowing what you are doing.

      Brett

[Lauri Malila]

That's funny. FAI events are buy and fly. Or borrow and fly.  Knowing what to do is unimportant as long as someone adjusts it for you.

Well, there is always the luck factor in FF, but longer term observations show that you are totally wrong. If you keep winning like that, it tells something about the level of sport in your country. I have very very good models, from one of the best suppliers, and trimming them to top performance is always a hell of a work. And I can't think of many who could fly them *just like that* if I borrowed them out. I'm talking about gliders, but same applies to all FAI-categories. L

[Brett Buck]

Well, there is always the luck factor in FF, but longer term observations show that you are totally wrong. If you keep winning like that, it tells something about the level of sport in your country. I have very very good models, from one of the best suppliers, and trimming them to top performance is always a hell of a work. And I can't think of many who could fly them *just like that* if I borrowed them out. I'm talking about gliders, but same applies to all FAI-categories. L

   Without picking on Dan - a very similar effect is at work in stunt, where, many of he participants don't appreciate the degree of difference in the skill required to participate with decent success, and the skill required being able to compete at the highest levels. I was the same way, even when routinely competing against the best, it took me a very long time to appreciate how big a leap it is from decent local expert competition to qualifying, to making the top 5.   It's also why people can convince themselves that they are experts in various aspects (like engine setup) when in fact they known nearly nothing about it,  or just the rudiments or tribal knowledge.

      Brett

[Dan Berry]

I fly both disciplines. Stunt is exponentially harder.

[Lauri Malila]

I fly both disciplines. Stunt is exponentially harder.

Me too, can't say which one is harder. They are different. L

[Ken Culbertson]

Yes, you can just go buy stuff and fly it, but you aren't going to be around by the end of the round without knowing what you are doing.

Ditto's  There is every bit as much skill in most of the FF disciplines as there is in Stunt.  In some, like F1A maybe even more.
Ken

[Steve Dwyer]

Would you conclude that building FF stick and tissue is more demanding (challenging) than CL to achieve respective flying results?

Steve

[Dan Berry]

Would you conclude that building FF stick and tissue is more demanding (challenging) than CL to achieve respective flying results?

Steve

No, I would not.
That's one of the reasons that Stunt is harder.

[Dan Berry]

Me too, can't say which one is harder. They are different. L

Stunt is harder.
I'm entered in about 15 events at the FF Nats.  None of the planes have been flown nor looked at since the Nats last year.
There is ONE plane in the mix that might get any adjustments.  Everything else comes out of the box and is ready to fly. I won't have any warped flaps. I won't need to think about moving the leadouts. I won't consider shorter lines. I won't use different nitro percentage because of the temperature. I might get beat by a plane that has had ONE flight prior to an official at the Nats. Yes, that has happened.
All of the planes have warps in the wings. All have patches.

The offer stands. I have a plane and everything needed for an event that I'm not entered. If anyone reading this wants to fly it Monday at the Nats it will be there.  If I can't get you third place or better I'll pay your enytry fee. I'll teach you how to fly it on Sunday. That will take one flight.

[PerttiMe]

My Dad Was Stronger Than Your Dad!

[Steve Dwyer]

Dan,   OK then....to take it further would you agree to achieve a "flyable" model, when building a control line it is a more forgiving assembly than a stick and tissue? To qualify "flyable" is to build a control line that will fly level and simply do loops and wingovers while a rubber powered S&T would stay aloft without power for a minute or more?

Steve

[Scott Richlen]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the FlyingAces Club.  They are a bunch of old guys (for the most part) who fly rubber powered (mostly) stick and tissue (no money-coat allowed) scale and sport free-flight.  Their web-site (http://flyingacesclub.com/) is worth visiting as it has all of their newsletters (which always contain plans) and a lot of info.  Their Nats will be July 13 to 16 this year in Geneseo, New York at the National War-Plane museum.

While it is competitive, it is relaxed and a huge amount of fun.  It is great fun to watch what they call "Mass Launches".  This is where all the competitiors line up with their airplanes and fling them into the air at the same time.  They have Mass Launches for WWI bi-planes, WWII war planes and various categories of race planes.  The Mass Launch has multiple rounds where the pool of candidates decrease (based on time aloft) over 3 rounds until you reach the top 5.  My Grumman TBM even made it to the 2nd round one year!

These guys are unapologetically BOM and are happy to particiapte in a sport that is wedged very solidly in the mid-1930s.

It is totally different than our PA events and has a charm all its own.

 

[Dan Berry]

Dan,   OK then....to take it further would you agree to achieve a "flyable" model, when building a control line it is a more forgiving assembly than a stick and tissue? To qualify "flyable" is to build a control line that will fly level and simply do loops and wingovers while a rubber powered S&T would stay aloft without power for a minute or more?

Steve

I'm comparing competitive Stunt and competitive Free Flight . I'm not comparing a Guillow's Lancer with a Stuntman 23.

[Steve Dwyer]

Scott,

I failed to refer to the Flying Aces Organization you brought up in my earlier post that fly annually at Geneseo, NY. The Mass Launch is impressive with some beautiful models. When I witnessed an event three years ago I was subtly informed, the FF guys don't take kindly to the control line folks?  Must be sort of like religion?

Steve

[Ken Culbertson]

I'm entered in about 15 events at the FF Nats.  None of the planes have been flown nor looked at since the Nats last year.
There is ONE plane in the mix that might get any adjustments.  Everything else comes out of the box and is ready to fly.

You can do that with stunt too.  Just don't expect to win anything. 

Ken

In response to  Steve.

I flew F1A with a US Team member back in the mid 60's and late 70's.  What you say is true.  He hated all the room my stunt plane took up in the car.  He wondered why anyone would want to spend time on something as simple as control line.

[Motorman]

This thread proves I had it right in reply #1

[Scott Richlen]

the FF guys don't take kindly to the control line folks?  Must be sort of like religion?

I suppose, but I've never experienced that.  Of course I don't show up at a FF contest with my stuntships.  However, Banjock usually shows up at CL contests with a simple FF or two for after-contest flying.  And I've never heard any complaints.

In fact, I have seen a lot of cross-over.

We have developed a very bad social habit in America: we like to talk about our differences more than our similarities.  I started building FF because I wanted to learn to build lighter stunt ships.  I'm not even close to being much more than a beginner in FF, but my planes usually fly okay because I learned to build straight in CL.

I did get a chuckle out of Motorman's quip.  Maybe he needed to add a "smiley" emoji?

[Sean McEntee]

Stunt is harder.
I'm entered in about 15 events at the FF Nats.  None of the planes have been flown nor looked at since the Nats last year.
There is ONE plane in the mix that might get any adjustments.  Everything else comes out of the box and is ready to fly. I won't have any warped flaps. I won't need to think about moving the leadouts. I won't consider shorter lines. I won't use different nitro percentage because of the temperature. I might get beat by a plane that has had ONE flight prior to an official at the Nats. Yes, that has happened.
All of the planes have warps in the wings. All have patches.

The offer stands. I have a plane and everything needed for an event that I'm not entered. If anyone reading this wants to fly it Monday at the Nats it will be there.  If I can't get you third place or better I'll pay your enytry fee. I'll teach you how to fly it on Sunday. That will take one flight.

Lol I haven't a clue what you're talking about.  I can pull a CL model off the wall that I haven't flown in a year, change fuel lines and do other preventative maintenance, and it'll fly the same way as it did when I hung it on the wall.  On the other hand, I can't seem to get a HLG to fly the same from one day to the next .  I became a much better builder once I started building FF models. I think anyone starting out in CL would do well to build a few FF models to learn those basic skills.

[Ken Culbertson]

Lol I haven't a clue what you're talking about.  I can pull a CL model off the wall that I haven't flown in a year, change fuel lines and do other preventative maintenance, and it'll fly the same way as it did when I hung it on the wall.  On the other hand, I can't seem to get a HLG to fly the same from one day to the next .  I became a much better builder once I started building FF models. I think anyone starting out in CL would do well to build a few FF models to learn those basic skills.

[Dan McEntee]

This thread proves I had it right in reply #1

    No it doesn't, it proves you couldn't be more wrong, or that you are just not capable of seeing the difference.

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Lauri Malila]

If you compare your experiences in your Nats, please note that Muncie field is not very good for FAI free flight. So the contest is usually quite mild.
for better action, you'll have to come in Lost Hills. L

[Dan Berry]

The offer stands. I have a plane and everything needed for an event that I'm not entered. If anyone reading this wants to fly it Monday at the Nats it will be there.  If I can't get you third place or better I'll pay your enytry fee. I'll teach you how to fly it on Sunday. That will take one flight.

The offer has been accepted.

[Mike Quinn]

Hi

I agree with TimWescott.  Hip pocket aeronautics is what you are looking for. Also agree with SeanMcE.

I think anyone starting out in CL would do well to build a few FF models to learn those basic skills.

Ive flown mainly FF and RC over the years.  FF power duration competition with some success domestically in the UK.  Trying to get ‘back’ into CL from many false starts from being a kid.  I think die hards from bioth disciplines woukd be very surprised at the level of knowledge required to be successfull in either discipline.  There is definitely way more to CL stunt for example than i thought a few years ago.

Lol, there are some guys in FF who really go to the far end to mathematically model things like the winding of rubber motors and the polar effects of vanishingly small changes in airfoil shape.  Funny i never saw any of them on the podium with me 😂.  Your model has zero lift to drag ratio if you arent prepared to fly it in a howling rain storm.

What really boils my p@ss are RC guys that fly 50cc ARFs, have been in the hobby a couple of years, will be onto something else in a couple more, and think FF and CL are something for kids and not ‘real modelling’ and try to tell you where you are going wrong.  Sure weve all seen them 😬

Anyway, hippocketaeronautics is what you are after.  See you there. 

PS Flying Aces too.  What i like about scale FF in the US is that you strike a good balance between scale looks and flying duration.  Here in the UK there seems to be more emphasis on scale appearance as opposed to flying.  Lol, some of the models look great but i could throw a Tamiya kit further than they fly.

[Sean McEntee]

Hi

I agree with TimWescott.  Hip pocket aeronautics is what you are looking for. Also agree with SeanMcE.

Ive flown mainly FF and RC over the years.  FF power duration competition with some success domestically in the UK.  Trying to get ‘back’ into CL from many false starts from being a kid.  I think die hards from bioth disciplines woukd be very surprised at the level of knowledge required to be successfull in either discipline.  There is definitely way more to CL stunt for example than i thought a few years ago.

Lol, there are some guys in FF who really go to the far end to mathematically model things like the winding of rubber motors and the polar effects of vanishingly small changes in airfoil shape.  Funny i never saw any of them on the podium with me 😂.  Your model has zero lift to drag ratio if you arent prepared to fly it in a howling rain storm.

What really boils my p@ss are RC guys that fly 50cc ARFs, have been in the hobby a couple of years, will be onto something else in a couple more, and think FF and CL are something for kids and not ‘real modelling’ and try to tell you where you are going wrong.  Sure weve all seen them 😬

Anyway, hippocketaeronautics is what you are after.  See you there. 

PS Flying Aces too.  What i like about scale FF in the US is that you strike a good balance between scale looks and flying duration.  Here in the UK there seems to be more emphasis on scale appearance as opposed to flying.  Lol, some of the models look great but i could throw a Tamiya kit further than they fly.

   A wise old man (can't remember who offhand) once said "You can get a plastic grocery bag to max out with a decent thermal", and I think that is mostly correct.  Trying to find the optimal airfoil for a P-30 model is a bit over the top, but if it keeps these folks happily occupied, power to them.  Same concept as the fowler flap concept mentioned in another thread.  I don't think a model with that flap system will end up in the Top 5 at the Nat's any time soon, if ever.  However, it's better than being a heroin addict or having a drinking problem.

   FF scale is a ton of fun, even just to watch.  The limit of my involvement so far is Jet Cat.  Most folks are flying 40s-50s era subjects.  In an attempt for something a bit more modern, I'm working on an A-10 Warthog.  It shows promise but getting what is essentially six rudders--2 rudders, 2 engine nacelles and 2 landing gear nacelles--to all work together is proving to be tricky.  I wish I had the picture of it, but I know of a guy who built a B-52 for jet cat.  I wish I had that much patience. My favorite event is the mass launches.  Watching grown men go nuts when one guys model happens to end up on the tail of another guys model, as if in a dogfight, makes me giggle with delight every time

[Sean McEntee]

Duplicate post because I'm still half asleep

[Bruce Shipp]

Hay Sean, any kinks to this Jet Cat stuff? Sounds cool.

[Bruce Shipp]

GTS…google that #*¥+😉

https://hummingbirdmodelproducts.com/jet-cat-kits/1qfni357e3120wrawzjws7vvxntqvv

Another distraction if don’t need.

[Jim Hoffman]

I do pretty ok at CL stunt, but I find FF incredibly difficult. The Jet Cat catapult stuff looks fabulous. I might give it a go. Thanks for sharing the link

[Dan Berry]

The offer has been accepted.

And I owe him the eight bucks. He got fourth. Missed third by 4 seconds.