Looking for a free flight site.

[bob whitney]

This has gotten a bit off topic, but:

Happiness is watching a gifted, poorly built tow line glider that refuses to respond to any number of adjustments to tow straight and countless other adjustments to get a decent glide, but manages to fall off of a tow, catching a boomer of a thermal and goes out of sight in the slight wind drift towards the Atlantic Ocean, stalling all the way.  Never thought of using a dethermalizer on the thing because of its poor performance.

(This was well before circle tow was invented.) what do u mean Poorly Built

Keith

[bob whitney]

This has gotten a bit off topic, but:

Happiness is watching a gifted, poorly built tow line glider that refuses to respond to any number of adjustments to tow straight and countless other adjustments to get a decent glide, but manages to fall off of a tow, catching a boomer of a thermal and goes out of sight in the slight wind drift towards the Atlantic Ocean, stalling all the way.  Never thought of using a dethermalizer on the thing because of its poor performance.

(This was well before circle tow was invented.) what do u mean Poorly Built

Keith

[Tim Wescott]

   A wise old man (can't remember who offhand) once said "You can get a plastic grocery bag to max out with a decent thermal", and I think that is mostly correct.

Yes, but they don't always succeed at scheduling the decent thermals for contest days -- and a good part of the skill in free flight is plugging the plane into the thermal.

One of the skills that I find useful in CL competition is reading thermals -- basically to know whether I should grit my teeth and just do a maneuver after the wind changes, or wait out a couple of laps until it switches back.  I couldn't do that without a fairly rudimentary ability to read thermals that I got from a friend who flies gliders.

[Dan Berry]

My mistake. He was about 40 secs out of third. With a plane that hadn't been flown in five years.

[Ken Culbertson]

NFFS site is a waste of time.  Very few posts.

There really isn’t anything like Stunthanger for FF.

I would like to see it's own forum.  I agree.  I tried both NFFS and LSF for some meaningful discussions and was very disappointed.  Lots of us are old FF types.  Once upon a time most contests had both CL and FF.  Today they are nearly non-existent, unless you call sitting under a canopy shooting the sh** an event, even the NATS.

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

   A wise old man (can't remember who offhand) once said "You can get a plastic grocery bag to max out with a decent thermal"

Quite true but contests are won and lost by what your plane does when it can't seem to find a decent thermal or you run out of plastic bags.  The most memorable contests I can remember from my FF and soaring days were the ones where there was very little thermal activity, and no one Maxed out.  Those were won by the best builders and fliers.  There is just as much skill and learning that goes into designing and trimming a FF to enter and center in a thermal,
and still put up a respectable time if it doesn't find one, as there is in trimming a PA. The MAX for an event was, and I assume still is, intentionally set to where you are not going to max out without finding some lift on each flight.  You can come close, but the Cupie Dolls always cost more.

Ken

[EddyR]

For those that want to see ff models used in contest go to the AMA contest results and there is at least 50 pictures from this years Nats of models from hand launch  gliders to large class fuel models. Lots of rubber powered models also. I see Bob Sitfleet is still flying and placed in FAI. I flew against Bob in the 1950’s
Eddyr

[Steve Helmick]

Sounds like you have never circle towed for 15 minutes in a crowd then run a half mile only to get right back in line to do it again maybe 6 times an event.  Compare that to what we do between flights huddled under a shade tent.  If you are talking difficulty of achieving perfection you may be right.  A 645 is akin to an 18 in golf.  Neither one is ever going to happen.  There was a day when CL and FF were joined at the hip.  Everybody did both and had a blast doing it.  Stunt was what you did to relax between FF Event rounds.

On the thread subject, I thought there was some activity on the LSF forum.  I was wrong, quite dead.

Ken

Only 15 minutes on tow? At the '81 Sierra Cup, I circle towed (1st round on Day 2) for 50 minutes (1 hr. rounds), marked the only thermal that round, and dropped 4 seconds (my crappy glider towed ok but wouldn't transition well at all). The contest was 10 rounds, 5 each day. My total was 1796 seconds out of 1800 and of course that put me out of the flyoff round but in 3rd place. Jim Parker was 1st, Lee Hines 2nd. I did win the Champagne Flyoff on Saturday evening with something like 8 1/2 minutes...and I didn't CT at all, just towed into THE thermal and banged it off before anybody else launched. I then caught it, just before it got strained through the barbwire fence.

There is a pretty good amount of activity on FB FF groups, with "Vintage FAI FF group" being the most active, followed by Free Flight Group (NFFS, I think). The reason is that FB is a LOT cheaper than paying to have your site hosted on somebody's server. If you refuse to join FB, it's your loss. I even post political posts without getting put in FB prison. To be honest, the ACFC Group (Alberta Controline Flying Club) is the original reason I joined FB. Yes, there are some annoying things about FB, but those can get deleted with a quick click of the mouse!  Steve

PS: I've seen lawn chairs at least 50' up in thermals at Taft, CA. It's impressive!

[Ken Culbertson]

I know it is not FF but Soaring is pretty close.  Last night I stumbled onto a series of YouTube Soaring contests and got hooked watching my second modeling love for a couple of hours.   Watched one mass electric launch for a 10 minute spot landing event where everybody was down around 6 except one guy that must have been being held up by rising rat farts make it to the end and literally hit the tape anchor at 1 second. Almost wanted to get on EBay but my wallet ran out of the room.  If you think PA has evolved since the 80's, it is nothing compared to what I saw in that soaring contest especially the hundred or so planes waiting to compete.   I think electric power is changing that discipline as well.

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

Only 15 minutes on tow? At the '81 Sierra Cup, I circle towed (1st round on Day 2) for 50 minutes (1 hr. rounds), marked the only thermal that round, and dropped 4 seconds (my crappy glider towed ok but wouldn't transition well at all). The contest was 10 rounds, 5 each day. My total was 1796 seconds out of 1800 and of course that put me out of the flyoff round but in 3rd place. Jim Parker was 1st, Lee Hines 2nd. I did win the Champagne Flyoff on Saturday evening with something like 8 1/2 minutes...and I didn't CT at all, just towed into THE thermal and banged it off before anybody else launched. I then caught it, just before it got strained through the barbwire fence.

There is a pretty good amount of activity on FB FF groups, with "Vintage FAI FF group" being the most active, followed by Free Flight Group (NFFS, I think). The reason is that FB is a LOT cheaper than paying to have your site hosted on somebody's server. If you refuse to join FB, it's your loss. I even post political posts without getting put in FB prison. To be honest, the ACFC Group (Alberta Controline Flying Club) is the original reason I joined FB. Yes, there are some annoying things about FB, but those can get deleted with a quick click of the mouse!  Steve

PS: I've seen lawn chairs at least 50' up in thermals at Taft, CA. It's impressive!

Interesting, for those who have never flown towline 15 minutes is a long time, 50 impresses those who have!  I think Circle Towing started in Canada.  I used to fly the Southwest contest circuit with Don Chancey and he told me he learned it from the Canadian Team.  Seems like a different lifetime.  I did a lot of A-1 when I was stationed at Nellis.  Didn't have enough room to build A-2.  The desert flats just outside of Vegas are similar to Taft.  DT's were useless.  I would test fly at night just so that I could take the plane home.

Ken 

[Lauri Malila]

Only 15 minutes on tow? At the '81 Sierra Cup, I circle towed (1st round on Day 2) for 50 minutes (1 hr. rounds)..

Sounds like a typical Lost Hills/Taft weather for 3rd/4th round! In that kind of situation, let's say after 15 minutes, it's usually wise to take the model down and have a second attempt in the end of the round. It's also polite towards the others at the same pole.
People make amazingly stupid decisions when exhausted. Even though I can launch my thermal models to 110..120m in calm, it's very unpropable that it would make 180 sec. in that calm between thermals. There's something magic (or tragic) in California air. L

[Steve Helmick]

Sounds like a typical Lost Hills/Taft weather for 3rd/4th round! In that kind of situation, let's say after 15 minutes, it's usually wise to take the model down and have a second attempt in the end of the round. It's also polite towards the others at the same pole.
People make amazingly stupid decisions when exhausted. Even though I can launch my thermal models to 110..120m in calm, it's very unpropable that it would make 180 sec. in that calm between thermals. There's something magic (or tragic) in California air. L

That was 1st round of 2nd day, and the round started at the crack of dawn. Not sure where they fly the Sierra Cup these days, but in the early 1980's, it was at Waegel Field, maybe 10 miles south-ish from Rancho Cordova, CA. I think it was used for grazing sheep most of the time. We also flew there in '79 after the first Taft WC. I was a solid 25th-ish, but ahead of the late great Paul Lagan. I think there were about 50 entries in F1A in '79. That was the contest where the breeze was 180 deg. opposite above around 50'. It was strange to me, anyway...never saw that before or since. You're right, California air is strange. Thermals "breaking away", models going up and out the top or dropping out the bottom...crazy. I think it's due to the low humidity.

Our gang here in the PNW flew F1A and F1B (at least 5 of us, maybe 6) for a German Postal contest. We decided to only launch (or start towing) after the previous model landed, and also decided to fly in 1 hr. rounds. We ALL flew our flights in one patch of air in two consecutive rounds. We were shocked, as you can probably imagine. Our thermals are generally smaller, but a lot more "honest" than California thermals. Sometimes strong, but sometimes not. Very different in Oregon, too. I last flew F1A in '96 with homebuilt wood stuff, Seelig timers, homemade towhooks based on Isaenko's sheet aluminum construction. "Those were the days!"  Steve