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Author Topic: New Flyer: Looking for Tutorial on Basic Maneuvers and Progressive Learning  (Read 2056 times)

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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My son (8 years old) and I are brand new to CL flying. We have a Rugged Stunt Trainer with a .28 K&B Sportster Engine as our only plane so far. Outside of flying level, high flight, and some roller coasters we don't know any maneuvers or how to progress from here. I am wondering if anyone has has some good resources they can point me to for execution of basic maneuvers and how to progressively train. The closest comparison I can think of is piano lessons, where you have a book that keeps inching you along to progressively more challenging things as you improve with repetitive practice. I have tried to internet search pictoral demonstrations of CL maneuvers but have had little to no luck. I also can't find the basic and beginner flight patterns. Whatever you can do to get us moving in the right direction would be appreciated. Thanks.

- Brendan

Offline BillCalkins

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Where are you located? 1 on 1 help is better than any book.

Offline Brett Buck

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Where are you located? 1 on 1 help is better than any book.


^^^^^^ What he said. If nothing else, the entire point of the activity is hanging around with the other people doing it.

    Brett

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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I live in Carmichaels, PA (about 1hr 15 minutes south of Pittsburgh). I joined the local flying group but fear that it may be relatively defunct.

Offline Tim Wescott

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I'm not sure of the capabilities of the Rugged Stunt Trainer, so I'm not sure how much this applies -- who sells it, or where can plans be found?

Wingovers and loops.

If the plane has enough power, the first thing to do is to work up to a wingover.  A "forward" wingover starts exactly upwind.  You do a sharp turn, go straight over your head, then do a sharp turn to level.  You don't want to try that the first time out.

Start at level flight.  Start climbing at straight upwind.  Aim to get to about 45 - 60 degrees up (whatever you do for flying high).  Level off straight downwind, about 12 feet off the ground.  When you're comfortable with that, work on putting the top of the maneuver more and more straight overhead, until you do a perfect turn to straight up, over your head, straight down, and then level off.  Keep aiming for about 12 feet off the ground until you're really good.

If it goes slack on the lines overhead, it's either a trim problem or the engine's not strong enough -- check back here if so.  If it does really wacky things in the turns, it's either too heavy for stunting, or it's out of trim -- check back here.

If the plane can do a wingover with reasonably sharp turns, you can probably do loops.  The best way to do your first loop is to start at about 6-10 feet up in level flight, give it about 1/3 "up", and see where it goes.  Hopefully it'll end up somewhere between 45 degrees up and 60 degrees up -- if it turns tighter than that, slack off.  If it won't turn that tight, just fly it overhead and finish as a wingover.  If you do get to the top, say "oh ****!" to yourself and give it way more up.  You'll pull out of the loop much higher than you started -- this is good.  Do a few more of them, but try not to do more than five or so in one flight -- it winds up the lines.

At this point you'll probably be ready for lazy eights, but check back here for more info -- mostly because I'm tired of typing, and I've just been informed that I'm to move groceries from driveway to kitchen!!
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Offline Brent Williams

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    • Fancher Handles - Presented by Brent Williams
The Streak RST aka "Rugged Stunt Trainer" is a foam wing plane from Phil Cartier at The Corehouse.  Good, durable, repairable stunt trainer. 

Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline Carl Cisneros

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Brendan

head on over to the Brodak Hobby shop in teh little shopping center there in town.
The ladies there will be able to hook you up and probably put you in touch with John Brodak himself.

Carl
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Offline Jim Mynes

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Brendan, are you the guy that was pumping the tire pump trying to help Dan Banjock get his jet stunter fired up?
I remember that man as a local resident, very enthusiastic about what was going on and eager to get involved.

It seems like John Brodak could connect you with someone nearby to serve as a control line coach. I don’t know how much he flies, or if there are any active local flyers, but you’re pretty much at ground zero for control line in general. I’d go knock on his door if I was you.
I have seen the light, and it’s powered by a lipo.

Offline Shug Emery

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Here is some info.....http://brodak.com/maneuvers

and....http://brodak.com/stunning/

Maybe a start.

Shug



Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Here is some info.....http://brodak.com/maneuvers

and....http://brodak.com/stunning/


This is a big help and gets me on the right path.

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Tim Wescott. Thanks for the information. That will help me understand what my plane has to offer and get me thinking about progressing through maneuvers.

Jim Mynes. Yes, I was helping start Dan's jet engine plane.

I do live within 4 minutes of Brodak's Hobby Shop and recently joined the flying group with John Brodak. I've met with him twice. I will hopefully meet with the guys tomorrow (assuming people are there). So far I've been kind of hanging around, but I will assert a desire to have someone working more closely with me and my son.

When I started this post I knew the personal 1 to 1 training will be the best, but I was hoping that that there was some written materials that would give me some self-guidance / perspective as I start. Thanks for the help so far.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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You are Sooo doing this right.  I will bet there are a lot of us, myself included, who wonder where we would be today if we had had someone to show us how to do it right before we became experts in doing it wrong!

Ken
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USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline big ron

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The RST is what i flew the first full pattern with it is a very good trainer. Mine has a FP 25 on it not sure how it compares to the engine you have.
John Blanchard
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Offline mike londke

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The Rugged Stunt Trainer that Brendan and his son have was one of Samuel's planes. I trained Brendan's son on it all week and coached him to a 1st place win in Basic flight at the Brodak contest. At the awards ceremony Samuel gifted the plane to them. It is capable of flying the full pattern and should easily get them through loops, wingovers, lazy 8's and inverted flight with some coaching.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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These two pages are from an old Goldberg Shoe String Stunter. This may be what you are looking for.

A Blast from the Past.  Might want to skip #5.  Took me almost a year to stop doing that!

Ken
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Offline paw080

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My son (8 years old) and I are brand new to CL flying. We have a Rugged Stunt Trainer with a .28 K&B Sportster Engine as our only plane so far. Outside of flying level, high flight, and some roller coasters we don't know any maneuvers or how to progress from here. I am wondering if anyone has has some good resources they can point me to for execution of basic maneuvers and how to progressively train. The closest comparison I can think of is piano lessons, where you have a book that keeps inching you along to progressively more challenging things as you improve with repetitive practice. I have tried to internet search pictoral demonstrations of CL maneuvers but have had little to no luck. I also can't find the basic and beginner flight patterns. Whatever you can do to get us moving in the right direction would be appreciated. Thanks.

- Brendan

Hello Brenden, the absolute best trainer to learn basic and beginner flight patterns is to practice with

a two line stunt kite.  Two weeks practicing with a stunt kite and your eight year old son will be able

to transfer his new found skills to a control line model. I recommend the Into the Wind as a source for

the "Beetle" for you and your son.  If you wish to try a faster high performance kite, then I recommend     http://intothewind.com/Item--i-7823

Prism's "Micron".  For the Beetle, I recommend attaching the lines to a single 7/8ths" dowel with a 15"

separation between the lines. For the "Micron" a dowel with a 10" line spacing is best.   These kites are

capable of doing all pattern maneuvers except completing the wingover and overhead figure eights.

Sorry, it looks like the Beetle is no longer available; so instead of the Beetle, I recommend the "Bebop"   http://intothewind.com/Item--i-7785

 This kite comes with 65' Spectra lines.

The Micron, made by Prism, comes with 50' Dyneema(European name for Spectra) lines.   You and your son will

need to attach the provided tail in the beginning. 

With either of these kites, you can bounce them off the grass and continue your practice flying.  Your learning

is facilitated by the fact that you can continue practice flying until the wind dies down or your arm falls off!

You don't need fuel, batteries or spare propellers.  If you have any more questions, post your query here,

there are other modelers that have practiced control line maneuvers using two-line stunt kites on this site;

 or you can send me an email

  thegallegosfamily@gmail.com        Best of luck.

Tony G.

Offline Tim Wescott

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The Streak RST aka "Rugged Stunt Trainer" is a foam wing plane from Phil Cartier at The Corehouse.  Good, durable, repairable stunt trainer. 

Thanks Brent.

Brennan, that thing should be good for doing the full pattern if it's trimmed and powered correctly.  I'm not familiar with the engine you're using, but I'm almost certain that it'll do the deed.
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Offline Dane Martin

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Thanks Brent.

Brennan, that thing should be good for doing the full pattern if it's trimmed and powered correctly.  I'm not familiar with the engine you're using, but I'm almost certain that it'll do the deed.

Agreed. Very very cool engines. They're not like os or magnum. They churn the prop a little slower so they seem to like big props. I have some of the Sportster 45's I was gonna try out later.

Offline Brett Buck

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I am wondering if anyone has has some good resources they can point me to for execution of basic maneuvers and how to progressively train. The closest comparison I can think of is piano lessons, where you have a book that keeps inching you along to progressively more challenging things as you improve with repetitive practice. I have tried to internet search pictoral demonstrations of CL maneuvers but have had little to no luck. I also can't find the basic and beginner flight patterns. Whatever you can do to get us moving in the right direction would be appreciated.

  I think you have gotten excellent advice so far, and probably one of the better examples of a training plan from the Shoestring plans.

   There are two things I would strongly suggest, to make you life perhaps more difficult in the short term, and much better in the longer term. Put high priority on learning to fly inverted and doing outside maneuvers. The longer you fly around just doing inside maneuvers from upright flight, the harder it is going to be when you try to fly inverted. The "too close to the ground, jerk in "up"" reflex is extremely hard to overcome once it is ingrained.

  The other part is to *not* follow the usual beginner "safety" tricks - holding your arm rigid, and turning your handle sideways when inverted. The first is intended to keep you from over-controlling, but also prevents you from having sufficient control to do a lot of the more complex maneuvers. The second, I am not sure what it is supposed to do, I think "if you get confused while inverted, stop turning, and the airplane will give itself "down" naturally". I never learned or heard that one but apparently many, many people do, and that one is even harder to overcome. It leads to the tendency to try to do the same thing in maneuvers, upright on inside turns, and horizontal on outsides, so you end up screwing your arm around to try to match the attitude of the airplane, with difficult results. Hold your hand upright, set your neutral so the handle grip is 90 degrees to the lines, and keep your elbow bent. When flying, your hand should be directly in front of your sternum, about 18" out, and then control the airplane with fingers, wrist, and forearm rotation - *not* by moving your entire forearm up and down, or your entire arm up and down. DO NOT set the neutral with the handle tilted "forward".

     A third corollary - you are going to crash a lot of airplanes. Some of the tricks above are intended to keep you from crashing, but it only works in the short haul, later, you will keep crashing as you try to unlearn all of these tricks (which you *cannot use* to fly stunt successfully). Do not let a crash end a flying session. Have more than one airplane (preferably, a fleet of them, all the same, but whatever you have will do), ready to go, and when you crash, don't lose any time worrying about it, get the next one, try again. Keep going until you have run out of time or airplanes, DO NOT have one crash or problem, say "I will fix it later at home" and quit for the day. Just jump back on the horse.   Fix the carnage between sessions.

   The foam combat plane flies really well and works for the flying part. They can sometimes be more difficult to repair in the field, but usually you can do it. A built-up airplane can be repaired indefinitely at the field, as long as you have cyanoacrylate and packing tape. You should see some of the repairs we have done, they looked like a 1000-piece jigsaw puzzle, 45 minutes and a lot of Hot Stuff, official flights.

    Right now it's not critical, but work towards *stock, current-production engines*. You will make your life much more difficult using older vintage engines, even if you already have them. There are plenty of 20-25FPs and 25LAs around, they run much more reliably and with higher performance (read - easier to deal with) and use regular fuels you can get anywhere.

   Finally - you learn by doing, largely. There's a lifetimes worth of knowledge to gain about stunt, that's why we have people doing it from 10 years old until they can't walk to the center of the circle any more. You will never master it, no one ever has. Learning and experiencing is the point of the exercise, so you have to go out and actually do it.

     Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Brett's post may be some of the best advice a person just starting out could get.  Print it out and tape it to your tool box.  You can get very good at flying the pattern doing everything wrong but you are never going to be great.  Learn to do it right from the start and you won't have to relearn everything one day just to get a little better.  It does get to be automatic after a while and it is very hard to change once it does.

I can't emphasize enough his comments on inverted flight.  The sooner your brain stops thinking up and down and starts thinking only in terms of the direction you want the plane to go, the sooner your CA and tape bills will go down!

Ken 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Have more than one airplane (preferably, a fleet of them, all the same, but whatever you have will do), ready to go, and when you crash, don't lose any time worrying about it, get the next one, try again.

If it's not obvious, have more than one, and bring them to the field.  This advise (from Brett!) helped me a lot when I was learning, even though I only ever managed to have two or three at once.  Even having one flying and one partially repaired meant that if I crashed I didn't lose the next weekend of flying.

I happen to like Phil's foam wings, and how easy they are to repair with Gorilla Glue.  I'm not sure how quickly it hardens, because I tend to do my repairs at home.  If you get more than one plane, then you can rotate through them, and keep 'em repaired.
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Offline Brendan Eberenz

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HI Brendan.  One big word of advise.  Once you commit to a certain maneuver, do NOT change your mind. FOLLOW  through. That is unless you truly enjoy rebuilding and doing repairs.  LL~

I will log that thought away and be sure to share it with my son. You mentioned it's a great father/son hobby. That's a big reason I'm getting into it. He's mechanically inclined and I think he will enjoy building planes.

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Brendan, when you next go to the hobby shop at Brodak's, be sure to get their catalog. In it is the beginner pattern and the Old Time Stunt  pattern and the modern pattern.  Also, via private email on here, send me your mailing address and I'll send to you a booklet by Dick Mathis titled, "How to fly U-Control".  A very good book for beginners. H^^

Just picked up the Brodak catalog today!!! It is a big help. Also, I did private message you with my address. Thanks.

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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   Finally - you learn by doing, largely. There's a lifetimes worth of knowledge to gain about stunt, that's why we have people doing it from 10 years old until they can't walk to the center of the circle any more. You will never master it, no one ever has. Learning and experiencing is the point of the exercise, so you have to go out and actually do it.

     Brett

Brett I appreciate all the words of wisdom here. I may not understand all of it at the moment but I am going to print out what you wrote and store it in my folder of things to be mindful of. Thanks for being thorough and taking the time to respond.

Offline Dan McEntee

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  I'm a book collector, and the first book that comes to mind is the one by Dick Sarpoulus on flying control line models. It was put out by Carstens Publications, which is still in business with train magazines and they may still have stock. It's from the 70's and 80's but a lot is pertinent to just learning how to fly. Getting an AMA membership so you can log onto the AMA website will get you into their archives and all of the control line articles and columns over the years Model Aviation has been printed since 1975. Bob Hunt did a series of columns describing how to fly each maneuver in detail. And if stunt is your goal and competition is in your future, down load the current AMA rule book and study the descriptions in the rule book so you will know what they require and have that firmly in mind before you even try them.
   Best advice I have among all the other suggestions is to just relax and keep things simple at first. Building lots of easy to build, repair and fly is a good idea also. You never know how easily you guys may take to the hobby. I have a friend here in my town that went from a phone call to me on how to set the needle on a fox .35 to placing third at the Vintage Stunt Championships Tucson against some of the top experts in the country in just three years. Some people have struggled years to just learn the pattern, but they still have tons of fun and, hey, it's not a race and the idea is to have some fun with your son. I was blessed with a son who took to the hobby also and we have had and still have many adventures and great memories flying together, and we have friends all over the country.
  And lastly, I agree with Brett on getting inverted and outside maneuvers mastered as soon as possible I used and teach the method of moving the controls to "top control" when you want to move level flight towards the canopy  and "bottom" control" when you want to go towards the landing gear. No matter what the attitude of the airplane, there top is always the top and bottom is always the bottom..
    Ass far as disposable airplanes, there are lots of options, but one comes to mind if you want to scratch build and that is an old slow combat model that some one asked about on the forum here a few years ago called the Spider by the late, great Lew Woolard. The neat thing about this airplane is it's designed for easy, quick and durable construction and repair, and only requires 4 sheets of balsa to construct. very well thought out in that respect. All you need to do is add some wire landing gear and fit the engine of your choice. The K&B .28 you have and any of the other similar size engines are perfect for it. Do a search on the forum here on the Spider and it should come up quickly.
  Good luck and have fun,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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  And lastly, I agree with Brett on getting inverted and outside maneuvers mastered as soon as possible I used and teach the method of moving the controls to "top control" when you want to move level flight towards the canopy  and "bottom" control" when you want to go towards the landing gear. No matter what the attitude of the airplane, there top is always the top and bottom is always the bottom..
 
Dan:
This is how I was taught as a kid when one of the "experts" in our club got tired of seeing me crashing my Flight Streak somewhere around 1960 and I have been passing it on -  it really works.  But, I found it difficult to start visualizing maneuvers because you instinctively watch the plane.  Funny thing is after a 35 year layoff (career & children) I was able to go inverted on the deck with no concern on my very first flight.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


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