I think I see my problem!

[Bill Heher]

As some of you are aware from past posts, I have been struggling with inverted flight and outside loops for over a year ( I only get to fly maybe 1-2 times a month- so pretty hard to get in a lot of practice). I have had numerous crashes, almost always at the bottom of outside loops or entering inverted flight.

This past weekend a guy shot some video of me flying and pulled a still pic from the clip. It shows my ARF Oriental at the bottom of an outside loop. He thought it showed great skill- I realized it was about .05 seconds from disaster!Looking at it I can see that I am well behind the plane, and my arm is way above my shoulder.

Lifting my arm is probably an unconcious re-action to the plane almost hitting the ground, but it would input some "UP" elevator. That's the last thing I need at 1' foot off the deck inverted.

I guess I have to concentrate on my body / arm position more and not fixate on the plane so much. At least by being aware that I might do this I can try and avoid it and retrain my tired brain. Sure would help the planes last longer.

[Serge_Krauss]

Bill-

That's exactly what my problem was. I even thought I'd trimmed the model wrong! When I finally decided that this reflex of raising my arm  might be my problem, I deliberately did the opposite. I lowered my arm way below where it should be, and the plane started recovering right. I'm still weak on outside maneuvers, due to infrequent practice, but it took very little time for me to start keeping my hand down, once I realized what the high reflex was doing. When I chicken out, I still have that acquired reflex of pulling the hand low, and I don't recall plowing it in since then. I'm working on limiting arm movement some, but I do move it around a lot. At least my faulty technique is in the safer direction now. I need to get some discipline in my flying, but I don't think I'll be raising the hand to keep bottoms higher any more. Lazy eights...

SK

[Brett Buck]

I guess I have to concentrate on my body / arm position more and not fixate on the plane so much. At least by being aware that I might do this I can try and avoid it and retrain my tired brain.

  Big step there!  I think it's incredibly important to have clean body positioning and posture. A few of my buddies have taken the effort to consciously wath their body positioning. These guys weren't duffers before, but  middle-level experts. When they first tried it, they were TOTALLY hosed up and it made them fly much worse. But eventually they got it, and are now much better than they were ever going to be otherwise.

    Real simple rules:

     Keep the airplane in front of you
     Keep your arm/hand in front of you, with the height about the middle of your chest to your shoulder, and about 18" in front of you
     Keep your head straight up and down
     Keep the handle vertical
     Set the neutral so that the handle grip is 90 to the lines in level flight. It doesn't matter that you hold a pistol with a big tilt forward, you aren't shooting a pistol

    Brett

[Brian Massey]

  Big step there!  I think it's incredibly important to have clean body positioning and posture. A few of my buddies have taken the effort to consciously wath their body positioning. These guys weren't duffers before, but  middle-level experts. When they first tried it, they were TOTALLY hosed up and it made them fly much worse. But eventually they got it, and are now much better than they were ever going to be otherwise.

    Real simple rules:

     Keep the airplane in front of you
     Keep your arm/hand in front of you, with the height about the middle of your chest to your shoulder, and about 18" in front of you
     Keep your head straight up and down
     Keep the handle vertical
     Set the neutral so that the handle grip is 90 to the lines in level flight. It doesn't matter that you hold a pistol with a big tilt forward, you aren't shooting a pistol

    Brett

Brett; you just opened a big can of worms for me: I set my handle with what I feel is my hand's "neutral" position; but see in the handle some "down" bias. is that bad?

Brian

[Brett Buck]

Brett; you just opened a big can of worms for me: I set my handle with what I feel is my hand's "neutral" position; but see in the handle some "down" bias. is that bad?

  I think so. Lots of people fly with the "relaxed" grip, and you can learn to be competitive that way, but I think you are learning a bad habit. Better to start out correctly, I think. Generally, if it feels right, I would bet that your arm is too straight/hand is too far from your body.

   There will be a bunch of people telling me how dumb I am posting shortly.

     Brett

[John Castle]

Great explanation, I have been having the same problem with the same results. I have been watching videos of the good pilots and am amazed how artistic their body movement is and how well choreographed their routine is.




John

[Brett Buck]

  Try this one, too. Note that Paul is used as the classic "pistol grip" example, but look at his body posture in the maneuvers, including bent at the elbow. I have flown Paul's airplane and his handle is pretty close to mine.




    Brett

[Bill Heher]

I guess it is true- A picture is worth a thousand words - or at least a couple of repair sessions !

I have been trying to keep the plane centered in front of me- but there sure is a lot going on when you get inverted, the ground is close, your knees are knocking, the wind seems to be gusting a bit more, and on, and on, and on,

I just can't thank everyone enough for all the help and advice that is so readily available here at the Stunt Hangar.
 I try to give back when I can, mostly on repair and building stuff. But I still seem to get so much more than I give,   what a bargain.
I will have to kick in another donation soon- but I just filed my taxes and wiped out the checking account for a week or so...sigh. Oh well, I am sure that the folks in D.C. will put my $$ to good use- NOT!

[John Stiles]

I am hugely behold'n to ya Bill.....I couldn't figure out why my last two inverted flights[two planes] wound up in disaster. Now as I reflect back, I distinctly remember raising my arm, trying to prevent what happened anyway! Why this didn't occur to me sooner I can only guess! Maybe because I'm getting ready to fly[the maiden flight] of my scratch built bi-slob[slob-master]! I've kinda been putting it off thinking I had the "yinks", or that "oldtimers" had set in! I owe ya one buddy!

[EddyR]

Brett       Great video of Paul flying the Cobra. For those that watch it notice that Paul plants his feet just before the model in in front of him and as the model gets to the start of the maneuver he bends his knees slightly and follows the plane through the maneuver.Newer pilots have a very stiff stance and they don't set there feet slightly apart. It is hard to turn at the waist with the feet close to gether.
EddyR

[Paul Taylor]

Whew!!!

I could have made a diamond out of a lump of coal.

[Larry Fulwider]

   . . .
 . . .
    Real simple rules:

     Keep the airplane in front of you
     Keep your arm/hand in front of you, with the height about the middle of your chest to your shoulder, and about 18" in front of you
     Keep your head straight up and down
     Keep the handle vertical
     Set the neutral so that the handle grip is 90 to the lines in level flight. It doesn't matter that you hold a pistol with a big tilt forward, you aren't shooting a pistol

    Brett

Stan Powell uses a slight variation of your guidelines -- arm more extended and straighter in level flight. Also, he keeps the plane more off his right shoulder than directly in front of him in level flight, but takes a "directly in front of me" stance for maneuvers.
        Not sure I got this part right, but I think he takes the maneuver stance with the plane slightly off his right shoulder, then rotates his arm and torso around to bring the maneuver directly in front. Gives a sort of "enter stage right" effect.
        I've seen other very good flyers use a similar variation of your guidelines.

     
Comments on this style of flying? Not Stan, particularly, just the general style I described?

       Larry Fulwider

[john e. holliday]

Did you notice the arm is following the airplane.  The wrist is used to set the elevator.  I did notice he is doing some body and head movements during the maneuvers.  Too bad we don't have a video of Billy Werwage flying.   

[Brett Buck]

For those that watch it notice that Paul plants his feet just before the model in in front of him and as the model gets to the start of the maneuver he bends his knees slightly and follows the plane through the maneuver.Newer pilots have a very stiff stance and they don't set there feet slightly apart.

   It's all about creating a stable reference frame in which to maneuver. 95% of the big shape and consistency issues that people have are due to losing their orientation. Any 5-year-old can stand at a blackboard and draw a respectable triangle. That's because nothing is moving. You have to stop, keep your balance, and create a "frame" for the maneuvers, like placing a canvas on an easel. Then it's only a little tougher than drawing on a blackboard. It's damn near impossible if you are crouching, jumping, turning, tiling your head, and/or waving your hand around. Not impossible with an infinite amount of practice, just really difficult. Back in the good old days - like, before about 1988- you may have needed to do this to help the airplane (and the guys who were competitive at the time were masters at knowing when to tug on it). But there's no need or value to it now, and a huge downside.

   Of course getting to the point you can actually do this on a regular basis might take a while.  

    Brett

[Larrys4227]

Most probably wont agree, but one of the things I'll do after flying manuevers is to fly level about 2 foot above the ground for the remainder of the tank .... sometimes this is 10-20 laps. I firmly believe that this has taught me 'where the ground is', and NOT TO PANIC if a manuever comes out alittle low. If I am coming through a manuever low, I realize it right away and even though a portion of the plane will seem inches off the deck .... I dont panic, fly right through it and continue on.

Now of course I dont recommend that anyone does this ..... but my flying improved tremendously when I could fly a manuever and not be so scared of coming close to the ground.   Sometimes after a flight, someone might say to me, Boy, that was close!  I'd shrug and think .... not really.  :-)

Now if I could place my bottoms where they're supposed to be .... LOL!

Larry

[bob branch]

I think there have to be exceptions to Brett's recommendation of a vertical handle. It is only better IF you wrist has enough up movement left to allow the plane to do what it needs to. Some people's anatomies are such that they do not. They require an angled down hand to get enough up input. If I flew with a straight handle (not an angled grip) and was forced to set my handle straight up and down and have that be level I would only have about 4 or 5 degrees more movement left in my wrist to be to full up. Anatomies differ and this is a fairly common variation. Using an inclined handle that allows the bar that the lines connect to be vertical while my wrist is in a normal relaxed position (and thus tilted to what for many would look like almost full down input) I have full range of motion and control. But the bar on the front of the handle where the lines connect is vertical. Thing is you cannot tell this by looking at a picture of someone. If you have full range of motion that allows you hand and handle to be vertical I agree with what has been said. Something has to be neutral in there somewhere and in reality its where the lines attach I think. The mechanics of our anatomies will vary.

bob branch

[FLOYD CARTER]

Maybe I'm not normal, but my left wrist (I'm a leftie) has equal movement up and down from "neutral".  So I fly pretty much as Brett says.  Only difference, my left arm is about 25" in front of me (I have VERY long arms!).

(I am a violinist with about 65 years of practice, so my left wrist is quite flexible)

Floyd

[Brett Buck]

I think there have to be exceptions to Brett's recommendation of a vertical handle. It is only better IF you wrist has enough up movement left to allow the plane to do what it needs to. Some people's anatomies are such that they do not. They require an angled down hand to get enough up input. If I flew with a straight handle (not an angled grip) and was forced to set my handle straight up and down and have that be level I would only have about 4 or 5 degrees more movement left in my wrist to be to full up.

I suggest that you might consider your arm and elbow position. If I hold my arm straight out, I get about the same effect you do. But then try it with an elbow angle of 45 to 90 degrees. Do that and the middle of travel of my wrist is the when the handle is vertical. Watch Heman's video of Paul and see that while his arm is straight in level flight, its definitely bent during the maneuvers. That has been the case with everyone with whom I have coached on the topic. That's why the recommendation for your hand right on your sternum about 18" out - you can't do that with a straight arm.

    Doing it this way also has another advantage - you can get movement by rotating your forearm.

    Brett

[Bill Heher]

Well I just sat in front of the mirror here in the hotel room, and moved my arm from 18" in front of my chest to fully extended with my eyes closed. ( it is sometimes beneficial to be alone in a hotel room - no one see's this stuff!)

What I saw was that if I did not make a conscious effort to keep my fist vertical- I ended up with a slight down angle when fully extended. Another thing to try and remember when flying the pattern- My brain is full- can I be excused!

[Tim Wescott]

I guess it is true- A picture is worth a thousand words - or at least a couple of repair sessions !

I have been trying to keep the plane centered in front of me- but there sure is a lot going on when you get inverted, the ground is close, your knees are knocking, the wind seems to be gusting a bit more, and on, and on, and on,

I just can't thank everyone enough for all the help and advice that is so readily available here at the Stunt Hangar.
 I try to give back when I can, mostly on repair and building stuff. But I still seem to get so much more than I give,   what a bargain.
I will have to kick in another donation soon- but I just filed my taxes and wiped out the checking account for a week or so...sigh. Oh well, I am sure that the folks in D.C. will put my $$ to good use- NOT!

Back when I was learning control line the first time, before I took 20 years off and forgot much of it, I would dedicate entire flights to learning to fly inverted comfortably.

Take off, do a half inside loop, and just practice inverted flight.  Fly out a good part of the tank, then do a half outside loop, noodle around if you want, and land.  Keep it up until the knees aren't knocking and the wind is normal and all the rest.

Something I learned from reading the RC precision aerobatics columnists: don't think "up" and "down".  Think "wheels" and "canopy" or "top" and "bottom" (I learned on really spare little 1/2A planes, so I went for "top" and "bottom").  That way, if you're upside down instead of saying "Oh my gosh!  I've got to go up (smack)!" you can think "Oh my gosh, I need to go toward the wheels! Whew!".

[Bill Little]

I agree with the vertical handle for neutral.  I do not agree with an *extended arm* once you have learned to fly around level.   When shooting a pistol (as Brett addressed) the arm is extended, and there is a natural tilt down of the hand. 

Try this: Straighten out your arm and let the hand tilt normally.  Now, with out changing a thing, bend your elbow and allow the hand to come closer to your chest.  You will see that your hand is now *vertical* as it approaches your chest.  The top pilots use their wrist (and even slight finger contractions on the handle!) to fly the model.  I have paid excruciatingly close attention to the top guys at the NATS (and at the Worlds in '04) and I cannot remember anyone using a *straight arm*.  That is taught to many when they begin so as to not over-control the model.  But when you can actually fly, you will be using your wrist to control the model's movements.  Several of the top pilots have told me to fly the maneuver out in front of me with my hand drawing the shape.  Unfortunately, I can no longer stand exactly perpendicular to some maneuvers due to body size and old injuries!  So I have to fly the horizontal "8's* with my feet planted about 45* to the left.  This allows me to fly the outside portions equally.

I admit, I am not an expert level pilot.  But it's not because of my knowledge (or lack thereof) of what's going on.

Big Bear

[John Stiles]

 Unfortunately, I can no longer stand exactly perpendicular to some maneuvers due to body size and old injuries!  
Big Bear

I know what you mean...even worse; I hafta have a pole to crook my left arm around to keep from falling down. But no worries, the kids love it; while I'm working on my planes there's usually two or three kids out there walking round the pole, flying imaginary planes.[makes me smile]

[Tim Wescott]

The top pilots use their wrist (and even slight finger contractions on the handle!) to fly the model.  I have paid excruciatingly close attention to the top guys at the NATS (and at the Worlds in '04) and I cannot remember anyone using a *straight arm*.  That is taught to many when they begin so as to not over-control the model.  But when you can actually fly, you will be using your wrist to control the model's movements.

Hah!  This is what I thought (and asked about, in a separate thread).

[Tim Wescott]

Great explanation, I have been having the same problem with the same results. I have been watching videos of the good pilots and am amazed how artistic their body movement is and how well choreographed their routine is.

I found this video very instructive.  I do notice that Ted turns his hand to the side when the plane is inverted, but I don't know if that's a bad habit or a good one!

Are there any more vids out there that focus on the pilot during the pattern, as opposed to the plane?

If anyone is bored and is casting about for videos take, getting lots of footage of just the pilot flying the pattern would be cool, at least for me right now.  Way way cool would be if you could do split screen, with the pattern on one half and the pilot on the other -- but as far as I know this would take some really pro gear if you wanted the cameras really synchronized, or some really good editing to make it so after the fact.

[john e. holliday]

Go to U-Tube and start searching.  Lots of stuff there and some stuff that shouldn't be on line.   

[Brett Buck]

I found this video very instructive.  I do notice that Ted turns his hand to the side when the plane is inverted, but I don't know if that's a bad habit or a good one!

    We have extensively talked about that, but at this point he pretty much only does it in inverted level flight, not much in the maneuvers, which is where it's really harmful. But that's exactly why I am suggesting the everybody avoids the habit from day one - because it's hard to break.

Are there any more vids out there that focus on the pilot during the pattern, as opposed to the plane?

     I have a few of them but they aren't posted anywhere.

     Brett

[Howard Rush]

I found this video very instructive.  I do notice that Ted turns his hand to the side when the plane is inverted, but I don't know if that's a bad habit or a good one!

Are there any more vids out there that focus on the pilot during the pattern, as opposed to the plane?

If anyone is bored and is casting about for videos take, getting lots of footage of just the pilot flying the pattern would be cool, at least for me right now.  Way way cool would be if you could do split screen, with the pattern on one half and the pilot on the other -- but as far as I know this would take some really pro gear if you wanted the cameras really synchronized, or some really good editing to make it so after the fact.

Had you been at Delta Park Sunday, you could have seen one of the masters live.  On May 30 in Eugene, you can see four of them.

[phil c]

Well I just sat in front of the mirror here in the hotel room, and moved my arm from 18" in front of my chest to fully extended with my eyes closed. ( it is sometimes beneficial to be alone in a hotel room - no one see's this stuff!)

What I saw was that if I did not make a conscious effort to keep my fist vertical- I ended up with a slight down angle when fully extended. Another thing to try and remember when flying the pattern- My brain is full- can I be excused!

Bill, you might be overthinking the whole topic.  Use the advice to setup your body so you have, as Brett says, a reference for a maneuver. Then just go out and fly.  It takes a lot of practice to get the proper reflexes ingrained so you don't have to think about exactly what you are doing on every maneuver.  And do you practicing with a stable, well-trimmed, easy-build-plane that can take a few pancake landings without exploding.  Work up to doing all the maneuvers on that plane.  Almost any competent sport profile type plane will do a recognizable pattern.  Once you've got that in hand, start working on a high performance stunter.

[Bill Heher]

Phil,

Your recomendation is spot on, and is pretty much the path I am on to learn the pattern.

 I mostly fly basic .25 -.40 size planes, in fact I have kind of settled on the Oriental as my plane of choice. I am on my 3rd one , 2 ARFs and a profile ( all bought used so no real emotional investment), and a spare new ARF in the box for when the current one meets its end. I like the way it flies, and it is the right size for me now.I also keep a few profiles in flyable shape to work on stuff like inverted and outsides. Lack of regular handle time is my biggest problem.

I made some progress when I was working in Portland and got a chance to fly on a somewhat regular basis with the NW Fireballs, and am just plugging along flying when I can and trying to make it through the the manuevers in the right order with recognizable shapes.

I have to say that I get a real sense of accomplishment when I get all the way through the Beginner pattern and land , relax and get ready to go again. I also love taking a Ringmaster  or Shoestring and just banging around the sky having fun.  Its all good brother, its all good!

[Brian Massey]

I had to laugh out loud when I saw the picture of you with your arm raised . . . I catch myself doing the same *&$% thing  Slowly but surely I think I'm getting better. Like they all say; lots of practice!

Brian

[Leo Mehl]

Well I just sat in front of the mirror here in the hotel room, and moved my arm from 18" in front of my chest to fully extended with my eyes closed. ( it is sometimes beneficial to be alone in a hotel room - no one see's this stuff!)

What I saw was that if I did not make a conscious effort to keep my fist vertical- I ended up with a slight down angle when fully extended. Another thing to try and remember when flying the pattern- My brain is full- can I be excused!

If you think Keeping the plane in front of you is hard try flying Clockwise with your right hand. I have been accused of flying off my right shoulder when doing my horizontal eights but have you noticed that the guy that flys his plane with his right hand in a counterclockwise position has his arm extended across his body when he flies the outside portion of the eight. Also it seem that the older you get the more your natual instincts take over and they are harder to change. So my conclusion is that in order to do things properly you need to be around 40 years old instead of 78, which is easier to type because the 7 & 8 are closer togather on the keyboard. Also it seems that the older flyer has more excuses for the mistakes he makes flying the Pattern. This is a bit of information that should not even be mentioned on this post but seeing I am older now I think I can get by with anything.

[Bill Heher]

Gettin older doesn't let you get away with any more stuff Leo- everybody just gives you a free pass out of respect for you wisdom and insight ( Bazinga!)

I tried pretending to fly clockwise- in th eprivacy of my hotel room- and I don't think I could pull off a wingover, let alone an outside loop or Horizontal 8.

Later Leo.