LOA betwixt LA Area RC Club and FAA helps CL flyers

[Paul Wescott]

Los Angeles:

The Valley Circle Burners Control Line Club flies at a site called Sepulveda Basin. Just like Whittier Narrows it is a large-acreage catch basin uphill of a wide dam and is owned and operated Federally by the Army Corps of Engineers.  Sepulveda Basin is perhaps the only relatively flat and  open recreational space within several miles of Downtown Los Angeles, all of the rest having been developed with a plethora of residences or built-up into sports stadiums and off-limits parking lots.  Sepulveda Basin also happens to be located about a mile away from Van Nuys Airport, about 7 miles from Burbank Airport, and about 15 miles from the 800-pound Gorilla LAX or Los Angeles International Airport.  As a result our meager control line flying site, shared with the Valley Flyers RC site, has been the subject of much scrutiny as of late by a different 800-pound Gorilla: the FAA.  However…

Everything below copied & pasted straight from Al Heiger’s wonderful weekly control line newsletter The Nag:

“Some Unexpected Good News

Since RC activities at the Basin came under microscopic scrutiny by the FAA a few years ago, resulting temporarily in the closure of the field, the Valley Flyers have been operating under a slew of restrictions.  Although the AMA has repeatedly proclaimed CL flying to be exempt from such limitations, the FAA has been far more circumspect, and we have been operating ever since under a cloud of ambiguity.

Now, however, the Valley Flyers have concluded a formal Letter of Agreement, or LOA, with the FAA, which lays out in detail the limits of operation at the Basin.

Of particular interest to our club is that the FAA has agreed to keep flight below 100 feet of altitude completely free of restrictions, which effectively greenlights virtually everything we do.

We owe a big vote of thanks to the Valley Flyers, who did the heavy lifting in assuring our right to continue operations at the Basin.”  - Al Hieger

.

[Ken Culbertson]

Way to go!

Ken

[Tim Wescott]

So, no jumbo planes on 140' lines?

[bill bischoff]

Now that you're safe from being shut down, the next step is to find a sugar daddy to pay for fresh asphalt. When you find one, be sure to tell us all how you did it. We need it in Dallas, too.

[Trostle]

So, no jumbo planes on 140' lines?

A number of years ago at the Supulveda basin, I watched several people fly a profile (I do not know what) on 150' lines, at least that is what they said.  Hand launched with one person holding the lines between the airplane and the pilot for the launch.  Interesting to watch with the lap times somewhere between 15 and 20 seconds.  I do not think it got any higher than 30 or 40 feet.

Kudos to Al Heiger for making the agreement happen.  He has done a lot for control line in the Southwest.  He was recognized several years ago at VSC by awarding him the Keeper of the Flame annual award which was richly deserved.

Keith

[Dick Byron]

Mr Dave Cook flew a BAT on 100 ft lines in 1958 at the Weymouth Mass flying field. It was spectacular. Fox 59 power.

[Dave Hull]

We were glad to share this information, which we received from Jason Mansfield, the President of the San Fernando Valley Flyers. And even though the new LOA has not yet been published(?), I have seen a signed copy, so we went ahead with the news.

Perhaps to clear up the history a bit here, we have been operating under a prior LOA--one of the first, if not the first in the country. It was originally issued after some painful negotiations while the FAA learned how to create this new type of document. It was effective June 21st, 2019 and valid for one year. What is new in this latest version is that language was added that cleared model operations below 100' AGL regardless of which runway was being used at Van Nuys. In the morning, and during Santa Ana wind conditions, VNY turns the pattern around and the R/C flyers have been grounded. I suspect that this change will allow drone flights to resume and much of the foamy flying in what the Valley Flyers call "the sandbox."

The Valley Circle Burners have continued to operate with discretion during these periods (reversed pattern) due to our ~80' limited altitude, and because we maintain that our models are tethered and not sUAS, having no ground station, no RF link, and no onboard electronics which might be used for nefarious purposes.

While it might be fun to talk about how gigantic lines might have been tried in the past, it is not helpful in this discussion since:
(a) it is outside of AMA rules, which we follow;
(b) the layout of the circles at Apollo XI would not permit substantially longer lines as you would either go into the storage shed, the brush alongside the circles, the safety fence or any number of terminal obstructions which tend to be particularly hard on stunt planes; and
(c) promoting the idea of what might have been possible at one time (even though impractical in the extreme) and thereby allowing it to fuel any concerns within the FAA that these types of activities are on-going and need to be regulated further essentially taking away this latest relief for flight below 100' AGL.

Our club still has hopes of clarifying the language in the Special VIP transport TFRs to exclude control line model operations, and to ensure the park stays open for CL operations during these periods. We tend to be affected more than most areas since Apollo XI is within a 30 mile radius of LAX. More work to do....

Dave Hull
President, Valley Circle Burners

PS--To Mr. Bischoff's point about the condition of the asphalt, we would welcome any oil (or asphalt) barons from the great state of Texas to help us with our deteriorating surfaces. Our problem is entirely cracks due to shinking of the aging asphalt. We have named each obstacle for the person who has had the most notorious difficulty with it.

[Fred Cronenwett]

I haven't flown at the Basin since the 2003 time frame when I moved to the midwest.

I have never seen large models flown on lines that are 100 feet or more. I fly my 14 lb B-29 on 65' lines without any problems. Line length is defined in the AMA rules and it's possible to fly the larger models on 70' lines. The trick is for larger models is to fly them slower and put on an adjustable line guide to keep the line tension within reason.

And no the larger models do not typically do wingovers so I usually stay under the 45 degree angle when I fly my larger models.

on the topic of paying for new asphalt .... the Buder Park CL circle was repaved and it was paid for by a non-profit group that raises money to maintain Buder Park by having pilots get a "Buder Park pass". You don't have to show it to fly but all of the money goes back into the park. The CL area has had numerous improvements done over the years, but the big one was new asphalt on our 150' x 150' square pad.

Start a non-profit group, encourage pilots to buy a yearly park pass and save up for new asphalt to be put down.

check out www.gslma.com, this is the non-profit group that maintains Buder Park in St Louis MO

Fred Cronenwett

[bill bischoff]

PS--To Mr. Bischoff's point about the condition of the asphalt, we would welcome any oil (or asphalt) barons from the great state of Texas to help us with our deteriorating surfaces. Our problem is entirely cracks due to shinking of the aging asphalt. We have named each obstacle for the person who has had the most notorious difficulty with it.


The fellow who has the worst problems must be Phil McCracken. 

[Dave Hull]

Fred,

Interesting idea about the pavement fund. We'll discuss it within the club. I did try to invoke a divot fee--anyone who knocked a chunk out of the pavement by smacking it hard enough with their crank should throw a buck in the pot. I got a lot of pushback on that. But we could have used that as a conversation starter for more serious repair efforts. There are other considerations in our case that would have to be worked out with the city, too.

Bill,

Actually, we've had enough "incidents' that the names keep changing and it's getting hard for me to keep up. And I don't show a Phil McCracken on our club roster, so he must be one of our "down low" flyers? The currently used nomenclature is as follows:

--Just past the preferred takeoff spot we have the "gulf of Lally."  It is believed that there is still an aluminum landing gear down there...and unfortunately Jim may still be looking for it.

--Right in front of the normal landing touchdown point is Kitze's Canyon. It was the first of the aveo-fatali, crackus majorus we encountered. It became de rigueur to drop a wheel into this obstacle which was always the beginning of another gymnastics contest.

--On one side of the pilot's circle marking we have Deep Leg Ravine. Several shoes have gotten stuck, so full lace-up boots are now recommended. We hope that full hip boots will not become required in the future.

--On the other side of the pilot's circle we've come to think of it as the Lost Foot Range. Anywhere along the Great Center Divide (from Deep Leg to Lost Foot) you're at risk when you try to cross. It's somewhat akin to Death Valley--many have tried crossing it, but most regretted it, but only for a very short time

--On the backside of the circle, deep to the southwest, there is a series of (somewhat) smaller cracks that form our nacent Selpuveda Triangle. No one is sure how many airplanes have been lost in there.

Most of these monumental features of nature are now 6" wide and growing continuously, and thru the full thickness of the pavement, seemingly around 4". After packing some 20 bags (60 lb each) into the most notorious locations last year, we believe that another 100 bags might be needed.

I will note this, that the racing pilots generally can land clear of the cracks, but take higher risks along the Great Center Divide since they never just plant and rotate. The stunt pilots much more often hit the sides of the canyons a la Evel Knievel-style, with similar results. Also a factor is that racers whip by walking forward, while stunties invariably try to whip by backing up. So they have no chance of seeing the canyon they are about to fall into. One consequence is that for many who are trying to stretch the glide "out of the badlands," so to speak, is that airspeed is bled off until you get "ploppage."  The ploppage has accounted for some elongated holes in the gearblocks, some sprung legs, and other mayhem.

So if you find asphalt oligarch down your way, be sure to give him our address....

Thanks!

[Dan McEntee]

 For major cracks in the areas that you use most, just some hardware store cold patch asphalt will work wonders. It's not expensive and not too labor intensive. It just requires a few simple tool such as a tamper and a flat blade shovel. I have used a product called URM at places that I have worked and it is one of the best products out there.  It even says on the bag that it's "The Good Stuff!". We have patched cracks with this at Buder Park. If the cracks are really wide and deep, just fill in the bottom with some sand or pea gravel and p[ack that down as best you can. Then fill the rest with the URM cold patch and tamp it down smooth.  The cold patch can be tamped down pretty smoothly, to a point where you can't hardly tell it when a model rolls over it. For smaller cracks where cold patch aggregate is too large, just use a mix of the liquid stuff you can buy in a jug and sand. That gives it some body so it will fill up the narrow crack. The URM material is available in my area for less than $20 a bag and makes economic sense and is better that having to put the landing gear back into your model over and over!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[john e. holliday]

You guys are so spoiled.  In the middle of a drouth here in Kansas was at Wichita flying on the grass circle.  Dropped a 4 way plug wrench and it bounced into the crack.   Never did see it again.

[Dave Hull]

Dan,

At our last work party, we put in something like 20 bags of cold patch, using the following process:

a. Cleared the weeds first so no green stuff would come up thru the repairs
b. Knocked out the loose and crumbly asphalt detritus using a power edger
c. Blew out the cracks, large and small. Lots of other implements were used here....
d. Washed the edges of the asphalt with a special pre-patch liquid adherent from the guru squad
e. Dumped out bags of patch material and heated it with two propane weed burners, constantly turning and mixing
f. Shoveled it into the cracks to an overfilled condition, then used a gas-powered asphalt tamper to pack as tightly and smoothly as possible
g. Sealed it off by heating the patched surface

That's all fine, but the asphalt around it has continued to shrink, with the cracks opening up perhaps a half inch or so in the intervening year?

And we still have several hundred feet of six inch wide cracks to fill. Hence, a guess at a hundred bag project. I could refine that, but there's no way our club can put down more than 20-30 bags in a day, and nowhere to store it if we don't. For reference, the right kind of cold patch here in LA goes for $24-28 a bag. We tried one bag of Home Depot stuff as an experiment and it was not a success. It is some weird glue-n-rocks deal that air cures. You get a hole in the bag? Now you have a single lump of black rocks. And it crumbles after you put it in. Badly.

And while we made a few repairs on one circle, we have two more that could use some attention.

As a point of conjecture, I am pretty well convinced that it would be cheaper in the long run to pay to have the asphalt rolled every few years to destress it from it's normal shrinkage. (This happens every day on roads with trucks driving on them, hence, you rarely see the specific type of cracking that we are getting.)  With this type of maintenance, and periodic sealing, all you really are dealing with is the random small cracks that everyone is familiar with. Go ahead and pour some tar in those. Everyone does it.

Dave

PS--Doc, I feel for you with your lost 4-way. We had a incident recently where some R/C car guys came out and screwed down 350' or so of large water pipe for track railings. They had to set up off to one side of the circle in the spot between Lally Canyon and the Sepulveda Triangle. They used some huge steel blocks (one was 80+ lbs) to anchor the hairpins, and lots and lots of steel strap. So Big Mike and I used his power driver to unscrew everything and then drove our trucks out onto the circle to load up all the crap. That was a mistake. Big Mikes 4WD diesel could handle the load and all, but my 2WD Chevy Sliverado 1500 fell into Lally Canyon and disappeared. And it was a good truck too.

[Jim Kraft]

  The Brit Taurus was regularly flown on 100' lines with a McCoy 60. Mine fly's well on 70' with either a Spitfire or Orwick on ignition. 68" span, 850 sq. inches. I do believe it would fly well on 100' lines with the Orwick. I have to keep the spark timer retarded to keep it slowed down enough with a 13-6 prop on 70'. I could probably go to less pitch for a slower flight and use the extra power. It will fly extremely slow in light wind without falling out of the air.

With the Spitfire it flew well with a 12-6 set in a nice 2-4 break at 6+ second laps.