little wing on canopy?

[Larry Wong]

WE had a discussion on this and every one has a diffrent idea !!!!

What is it for?  in C/L  R/C  guys have them?

[Tim Wescott]

It has something to do with controlling the nature of the turbulence over the tail.  You see them on full-sized aerobatic airplanes and at least for a while you were seeing them on F1 cars -- maybe still, I don't pay any attention to F1.

I have no clue if they're needed in CL stunt (or RC aerobatics, for that matter).  Their application is probably subtle, and I'm not sure if you could profitably employ them without doing some wind tunnel studies first to see if they were having the right effect.

[Steve Helmick]

More crap to break off, add weight, or both, take your choice! IMHO. I'd wait and see if PW adds one to his plane next year.  Steve

[Gerald Arana]

WE had a discussion on this and every one has a diffrent idea !!!!

What is it for?  in C/L  R/C  guys have them?

Larry,

When I flew sailplanes there was a guy who had a propeller on his beanie......... I think he thought if it spun fast enough it would act like a helicopter. 

I also heard of a guy who put a rubber band on his elevator (in CL), but I don't know why 

Jerry

PS: Probably why those guys put vortex generators on their wings......

[James Mills]

I think Kenny Stevens had this on one of his SV's several years ago.

James

[Vitalis Pilkionis]

It has something to do with controlling the nature of the turbulence over the tail.

No, it has nothing to do with the tail. This little plate forms an area of higher pressure between it and a wing. And in the photo above it is in the wrong place!



Vitalis

[Tim Wescott]

No, it has nothing to do with the tail. This little plate forms an area of higher pressure between it and a wing. And in the photo above it is in the wrong place!

Thanks!  Why would you want that, and would it benefit CL stunt?

[Vitalis Pilkionis]

Thanks!  Why would you want that, and would it benefit CL stunt?

I have never tried it on CL plane. But on RC pattern plane it works very effectively. It makes knife edge flight so much easier and adds lots of rudder authority in other flight positions also.


Vitalis

[Fred Underwood]

Look at RC canalyzer, or cantalizer, or T-can.   Some are stuck on for a trial, so it may not be photoshopped.

[Tim Wescott]

I have never tried it on CL plane. But on RC pattern plane it works very effectively. It makes knife edge flight so much easier and adds lots of rudder authority in other flight positions also.

Eh.  Rudder authority.  Hm.  Why am I not jumping up to make a set for my plane?

[Frank Imbriaco]

I have never tried it on CL plane. But on RC pattern plane it works very effectively. It makes knife edge flight so much easier and adds lots of rudder authority in other flight positions also.


Vitalis

Sorry to disagree with you, but cantalizers are not an aid for knife edge flight. Fuse side area, datum relationship between wing and stab, and in some cases if necessary- a mix: rudder to elevator and or rudder to ailerons( to correct pitch to the canopy or belly) are what make for proper knife edge on an R/C pattern aircraft.
The  "behind the canopy" cantalizer actually became vogue  about a dozen years ago when rolling maneuvers were incorporated into the FAI schedule(s)
Any one who flies with one in the 4 lower R/C pattern competitions has it for looks.

[Curare]

As a guy who's had canalizers on his pattern planes for the last 8 years I can tell you that they most certainly help with knife edge flight, AND rolling manevuvres (don't forget that rolling maneuvres are some componenent of knife edge flight except for upright and inverted)

There's a bit of oddball/black magic to them, some think that they even the airflow around the fuselage, but most including me feel it acts as an aerodynamic fence, close to the fuselage CP thereby increasing the ski effect from the fuselage.

This in turn requires less rudder input to create the same lift as without the canalizer. Suffice it to say that my last F3A would happily do a knife edge triangle.

The amount of time a stunter spends on is not enough to warrant adding them, if it stays up there at the top of an overhead eight do you need more side force?

If anything, I think the little winglets that Gehard Mayr was using a few years ago would warrant more stunt investigation.

[Curare]

A couple of pics of Mayr's winglets:

[Ted Fancher]

The winglettes are real cute but what caught my attention was the large amount of right thrust visible in both pics.

??

Ted

Just figured it out.  It's an altitude hold device employed during left wing down knife edge flight!  Right?  Or maybe it's really a 1950's era control liner with excessive engine offset in lieu of excessive rudder offset...or

Juuuusssst Kiddddiiiinnggg!!!!

[Avaiojet]

WE had a discussion on this and every one has a diffrent idea !!!!

What is it for?  in C/L  R/C  guys have them?

Maybe he saw one of my builds.

[Curare]

The winglettes are real cute but what caught my attention was the large amount of right thrust visible in both pics.

??

Ted

Just figured it out.  It's an altitude hold device employed during left wing down knife edge flight!  Right?  Or maybe it's really a 1950's era control liner with excessive engine offset in lieu of excessive rudder offset...or

Juuuusssst Kiddddiiiinnggg!!!!

Not so far from the Truth there Ted, Gehard Mayr's flying style is quite slow, and as you can see it swings a big prop, so there is a lot of thurst angle required to balance that, it may not be to keep the lines tight, but sure helps keep the flight lines straight!

[PJ Rowland]

Ahh yes the old TCan.

I certainly think they can help by controlling airpressure.. as someone above mentioned.

But... if you DO work out the amount of time we spend in knife edge its ALOT more than just overhead 8s.

I think they have demonstrated working proficiency more than black arts.. in CL ? I certainly would encourage their use.

But placement is key.

[Frank Imbriaco]

As a guy who's had canalizers on his pattern planes for the last 8 years I can tell you that they most certainly help with knife edge flight, AND rolling manevuvres (don't forget that rolling maneuvres are some componenent of knife edge flight except for upright and inverted)

There's a bit of oddball/black magic to them, some think that they even the airflow around the fuselage, but most including me feel it acts as an aerodynamic fence, close to the fuselage CP thereby increasing the ski effect from the fuselage.

This in turn requires less rudder input to create the same lift as without the canalizer. Suffice it to say that my last F3A would happily do a knife edge triangle.

The amount of time a stunter spends on is not enough to warrant adding them, if it stays up there at the top of an overhead eight do you need more side force?

If anything, I think the little winglets that Gehard Mayr was using a few years ago would warrant more stunt investigation.

[Frank Imbriaco]

The T- can is totally unnecessary to perform  respectable K. E.

Accomplished  R/C  Pattern and IMAC  pilots can do knife edge from one end to the other of the field without them.  It's all in the trim set-up. No tuck to the belly or pitch to the canopy. My best knife edge ships were an Extra 300S and an Ultimate Bipe. Neither had them.  FWIW, I've owned/flown  my share of Classic , pre-turn around , ballistic, and 2 meter pattern ships over 45 years ,  at one time flew Masters schedules - all without T- cans.
Dozens of top shelf FAI LEVEL pilots will tell you that T - Canalizers  are just an aid for rolling maneuvers used in the current schedules.

 Among others,( Ivan Kristenson, Dave Lockhart, and Jason Shulman), I've  witnessed fly  was our own  "AMPS -UP MODERATOR", Dean Pappas who flew perfect knife edge ,corner to corner of the field in the 80s and 90s with the designs of that time. No T-cans  perched on their designs BACK THEN.

Sure, Dave and Jason have them now but that's because of the CURRENT FAI schedules.

The  F3A ARF/ARC designs  coming from foreign lands put em' on top as a marketing thing( helps with $$$$ sales) because all lower level pilots need them for ego purposes and nothing more .

[Skip Chernoff]

I could fly my "Martin Banshee" knife edge across the country back in 1975!

[Frank Imbriaco]

I could fly my "Martin Banshee" knife edge across the country back in 1975!

Right on , Skip! "Jersey Jim Martin's"  Banshee  is an excellent example ! Lots of side area. Whatta ship ! BTW, its currently available as a  Chinese built ARF via a German distributor.
All I'm saying here that it's total nonsense that a T-can is necessary for good knife edge performance. And, may I add that POINT Rolls (4 and eight pts.)  and SLOW rolls- two gorgeous maneuvers when flown  by really good pilots with well-trimmed ships- incorporate knife edge in all axis' AND can be flown "across county " as we used to say, both ways with canopy facing or belly facing.
And the really good pattern pilots  were doing 'em 45 years ago without T-cans.
Nuff' said.

[kenny stevens]

I RAN A WINGLET ON MY 09 SV22 AFTER HAVING TROUBLE WITH THE TOP OF THE HOURGLASS. AFTER ADDING THE WINGLET IT HELPED A LITTLE BUT IT TURNS OUT THE HELP CAME FROM THE ADDED WEIGHT ABOVE THE VERTICAL CG. PLANE WAS FIXED BY ADDING 1/4 OZ WEIGHT ON TOPSIDE OF WINGLET.  SO I CONVERTED PLANE TO ELECTRIC AND MOUNTED BATTERY AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE IN FUSE TO FIX PLANE. VERTICAL CG CAN BE AFFECTED BY LEAD OUT POSITION UP AND DOWN. PIPED PLANES DROP LEAD OUTS 1/8 INCH.

[Curare]

The T- can is totally unnecessary to perform  respectable K. E.

Accomplished  R/C  Pattern and IMAC  pilots can do knife edge from one end to the other of the field without them.  It's all in the trim set-up. No tuck to the belly or pitch to the canopy. My best knife edge ships were an Extra 300S and an Ultimate Bipe. Neither had them.  FWIW, I've owned/flown  my share of Classic , pre-turn around , ballistic, and 2 meter pattern ships over 45 years ,  at one time flew Masters schedules - all without T- cans.
Dozens of top shelf FAI LEVEL pilots will tell you that T - Canalizers  are just an aid for rolling maneuvers used in the current schedules.

 Among others,( Ivan Kristenson, Dave Lockhart, and Jason Shulman), I've  witnessed fly  was our own  "AMPS -UP MODERATOR", Dean Pappas who flew perfect knife edge ,corner to corner of the field in the 80s and 90s with the designs of that time. No T-cans  perched on their designs BACK THEN.

Sure, Dave and Jason have them now but that's because of the CURRENT FAI schedules.

The  F3A ARF/ARC designs  coming from foreign lands put em' on top as a marketing thing( helps with $$$$ sales) because all lower level pilots need them for ego purposes and nothing more .

Clearly, you misunderstood what i was saying, so I'll say it again. Only this time I will type slower.

Staight and level knife edge flight is nothing special, The front cover of MAN 1976 shows Hanno Pretter doing a knife edge pass with the Curare.


Going further than straight and level from that is a bigger ask, I remember when Dave Patrick described the Knife edge loop - which for those not paying attention is a VERTICAL loop, not flying around in a flat circle. This took buckets of rudder and back then aircraft capable of creating enough side force  (ultimates were the ulitmate at the time) not only to climb, but to come back down the other side and pull out to level flight.

With advent of a decent canaliser I can now happily do knife edge loops all week, and can go so far as to do a knife edge triangle, that is A VERTICAL TRIANGLE, with reasonably tight radii, thorugh 120° through all three corners, uphill and down.dale. You wont be able to do that with a Maya, or and El Nino, they just don't have the side area!

The next logical step from a canalizer of course is a second wing. This is why you see a lot of F3A biplanes these days, and maybe at least one F2B biplane that I can think of!
 

[Frank Imbriaco]

Clearly, you misunderstood what i was saying, so I'll say it again. Only this time I will type slower.

Staight and level knife edge flight is nothing special, The front cover of MAN 1976 shows Hanno Pretter doing a knife edge pass with the Curare.


Going further than straight and level from that is a bigger ask, I remember when Dave Patrick described the Knife edge loop - which for those not paying attention is a VERTICAL loop, not flying around in a flat circle. This took buckets of rudder and back then aircraft capable of creating enough side force  (ultimates were the ulitmate at the time) not only to climb, but to come back down the other side and pull out to level flight.

With advent of a decent canaliser I can now happily do knife edge loops all week, and can go so far as to do a knife edge triangle, that is A VERTICAL TRIANGLE, with reasonably tight radii, thorugh 120° through all three corners, uphill and down.dale. You wont be able to do that with a Maya, or and El Nino, they just don't have the side area!

The next logical step from a canalizer of course is a second wing. This is why you see a lot of F3A biplanes these days, and maybe at least one F2B biplane that I can think of!

[Frank Imbriaco]

Curare :
 No misunderstanding here, but a fellow in earlier posts essentially said that T-Cans are necessary for knife edge. I stand by my comments that they're not. And, as far as knife edge loops- they were never a part of the conversation.This is U-control.
 And contrary to your inference , I read perfectly well. Permit me to point out that you misspelled "straight".
  Now out of respect to this forum which is dedicated to control line activities and not debates over R/C matters, suggest we politely agree to disagree and end it.

[TDM]

From what I found, it look like the principle of that device is to channel and clean turbulent airflow behind the wing. Both surfaces Elevator and rudder benefit from it.  For us it may increase the elevator effectiveness better yaw control. For one I think it has merit and should be explored further. And yes F1 is using this principle a lot to channel airflow where they need it to make things more effective as otherwise would be without it.
In addition I don’t know how much the fuse side area has to do with little extra lift overhead but if it is in clean air it might help too.
I think I will make something and tape it to the fuselage to try it out.

One thing we lack here is actual data from at least CFD software to evaluate at least virtually what happens. Next best thing is to try it out.

[Vitalis Pilkionis]

No misunderstanding here, but a fellow in earlier posts essentially said that T-Cans are necessary for knife edge. I stand by my comments that they're not. And, as far as knife edge loops- they were never a part of the conversation.This is U-control.

Dear Frank,
they are not necessary, but they make KE flight so much easier to perform and control at much wider variety of speed. (At the particular speed even pencil is able to fly a KE).
And yes, I can fly almost any rc pattern aircraft in KE without a t-can. But the necessity comes when where is a need to fly it nice and level at the same speed you fly the whole schedule.
You may call me a rookie if you wish, that's ok.


Vitalis

[Chris McMillin]

Frank is definitely a Classic Pattern fan!
Chris...

[TDM]

Can anyone explain why we discuss the practicality of flying KE in RC and not the practicality of using this device in CL?   
You "stin" focus Daniel son.
We all talk about gyroscopic procession and for one a more effective rudder will definitely help with less yaw. We all want better corner and clean air to the elevator can only help too, perhaps have better tracking too.  So long story short who gives a sh..... about how much better a RC model will fly KE with or without the aerodynamic device. Big deal.
Yes in F1 they use all kind of veins to  or to clean air (make it laminar) and direct the airflow where is needed. This is exactly what this device does. In particular I think it cleans the prop wash from the motor. Because it was not done before doesn't mean is crap, so much for being open to something new. No wonder we still do the same things we did back in 1960.

Kenny I see you used it before and from what you say it was a vertical CG issue. With that in mind it sounds that it still kind of fixed the problem so it did something significant still. I am not sure if a 1/4oz (7g) will have the kind of drastic effect you are mentioning. You might be right but I still wonder. If I was a betting man I would bet on the benefits from the device rather than the 7g of weight on top of the fuselage. Think about it, hear me out. I am making an educated guess here but with less yaw and more effective elevator deflecting less to turn the plane, would that not be of any importance? The fact that you noticed a difference has to mean something. I am willing to bet if you put 7g of dead weight in that area you would not have had the same result. 

By the way I think that is a Russian model in the first picture and I want to say great job way to go. I am happy to see someone think outside and try new stuff.

[kenny stevens]

THE AFFECT AFTER INSTALLING THE WINGLET WAS MINIMAL COMPARED TO THE 1/4 WEIGHT. I HAD WES PUT CLAY ON HIS PLANE FOR SAME COMPLAINT WITH GOOD RESULTS. HE SAID IT PULLED TO HARD AND REMOVED SOME. MY FIRST ELE BUILT SV22 I CENTERED  LEAD OUTS IN WING AND HAD A LOT OF TRIM PROBLEMS.  NEXT PLANE (ELE) I DROPED THEM BACK DOWN 1/8 LIKE PIPED SHIP WITH MUCH BETTER RESULTS. I ALWAYS BUILD THE SAME PLANE SO THIS TESTING HAS SOME MERIT .

[Vitalis Pilkionis]

I saw this plane last year at EU champs, but don't remember it flying. Obviously it is another one derivative of Maxbee. And the owner was from the Czech Republic, so perhaps Igor knows him and could add a few words about the model and its mods.


Vitalis

[PJ Rowland]

Pretty small area to have any serious effect. We are talking about airpressure.. think about how much airpressure 4" would control.. very very little.

Its all good to talk about these things but Ive found testing to be the most practical application.

If I turn around arond and say they need to be 12 inches plis in length... how many would build one?

May as well build a 2nd wing and control it all the way!

[Frank Imbriaco]

Frank is definitely a Classic Pattern fan!
Chris...

GUILTY AS CHARGED !
Kaos, Dirty Bird, Kwik Fli III among others. Awaiting a Curare laser cut kit and oh, Bubba and I have discussed a foam/molded fuse Miss Norway.