Line Clips Legal?

[JHildreth]

The picture shows the three types of line clips that I have used.  I know that the bottom two styles are legal.  The top style is the one that I typically use.  At the NATS last year someone commented to me that this style is not an approved connector.  I hate to think I will be forced to use the one on the bottom.  I have an extremely difficult time disconnecting this style from the leadout or line eyelet.  Can someone tell me definitively if the top clip is O.K. or not?

Joe

[Dennis Toth]

Joe,
Some others will give the legal answer on the slid clip but I understand you problem with the scissor style connector. For years I fought with them and hated them. Putting them on by squeezing them was OK, taking them off was the issue. I came across a thread that talked about these clips and in that article they said to remove them don't try to squeeze them to remove - pull them open. I tried this and it this works really well. To do this you position the clip so that say the leadout is just at the end of the loop part of the clip and pull the clip open and slide the clip around the end of the loop and off of the leadout. It is harder to describe then it is to actually doing it.


I believe Randy Smith has reinforced slide type clips that are allow at the NATs. There may be a way of wrapping the center slider section with copper wire and soldering the wrap to prevent the slider from opening under high loads.

Best,   DennisT 

[Brent Williams]

If you like the old Luxon slider style clips, Randy Smith's "Hello Kitty" line clips are superior. 
Of the available options, Randy's clips are the most similar to Luxon's in operation.

[BillLee]

Why not just read the rules!?!?

5.1.
Each load-bearing line connector shall have a test rating equal to at least
the total pull test required on the model (i.e., if the model requires a 40-
pound pull test, the connectors will have to be test rated at a minimum of
40 pounds each). The burden of proof of the test ratings of line connectors
shall be the contestant’s responsibility. Test ratings on factory-packed
connectors will be considered as acceptable proof.

So, Joe, the question you must answer is:

"Is the rating of the connector as specified by the manufacturer equal to the pull test for your model?"

There is no blanket prohibition of any connector (other than swivels).

Regards,

Bill Lee

PS: FYI, from the Perfect website

[Brett Buck]

The picture shows the three types of line clips that I have used.  I know that the bottom two styles are legal.  The top style is the one that I typically use.  At the NATS last year someone commented to me that this style is not an approved connector.  I hate to think I will be forced to use the one on the bottom.  I have an extremely difficult time disconnecting this style from the leadout or line eyelet.  Can someone tell me definitively if the top clip is O.K. or not?

      There is no definitive ban of these connectors. At some past NATS, the event director disallowed their use on safety grounds, but there is nothing specific written anywhere.

      Having said that - switch to something else! The reason that the ED prevented them is that they tend to both open up in flight, and they tend to bind on each other. The Randy clips (that some internet wise-ass dubbed "Hello Kitty" clips, since the first ones came in small Ziplock bags with the "Hello Kitty" logo on them. I have it on extremely good authority it took about half-a-second between this wise-ass seeing the package and blurting out the nickname) are great for the handle end. I use the Sullivan-style clips (actually, McRosco fishing clips:

http://www.lurepartsonline.com/Online-Store/Snaps-Clips/Mc-Rosco-Snaps.html

(you want the big ones...) 

   at the airplane end.

     Brett

[Steve Helmick]

As stated previously, the only thing in the rulebook is "no swivels". The #2 style is shockingly similar to the #3 style clip, but IMO they work better and don't do that twist & lock crap that the #3 style tends to do (as much, at least). One thing to watch for on the #3 style clip is that some are black finished brass, and being brass, they're not as strong as plain stainless steel versions.

Never been to a NATS and no plan to ever attend one, but I don't see how an ED could assume the powers to ban a legal type of connector. I would beat a quick exit to AMA HQ and start filing paperwork, even if the ED was Ted himself...  Steve

[Brett Buck]

Never been to a NATS and no plan to ever attend one, but I don't see how an ED could assume the powers to ban a legal type of connector. I would beat a quick exit to AMA HQ and start filing paperwork, even if the ED was Ted himself...  Steve

     What if it was Paul?

    The CD/ED can decide on his own volition when it is a safety issue.

    Brett

[Steve Helmick]

Paul would be correct (that the #1 type clip is crap). I would still fill out the protest....and try to bum clips off of Paul to use.  But I gotta ask...what if the ED decided that solid lines weren't safe, or 3 strand StayStrate lines weren't safe, or that solid leadouts aren't safe, etc.? What if he/she decided that only electron powered model airplanes were "safe"?

If the rulebook specifies "no swivels", then the rulebook can also specify what style and material can be used for clips, too. It happens that the subject of leadout cable size was brought up at our last club meeting. Lots of varying opinions about what is adequate...I think it would be good to put that in the rulebook. And yes, we know that most speed, racing, and combat models don't use leadouts at all, with the lines attaching directly to the bellcrank.    Steve

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hi I have mainly used the type 1 sliders from Sig as they are easiest with my arthritic fingers but on a cold day when they are wet or oily I get very frustrated. My sons (age 9 and 11) find these 'easy to use' ones hard to work and normally give up and get me to connect the lines 
As a young lad we used split rings, often with disastrous results when they snagged a line and you crashed.

Regards Gerald

[Perry Rose]

Some of the slider connectors are made of magnetic material and some are not. I would shy away from the non magnetic connectors.

[Chris Fretz]

If you like the old Luxon slider style clips, Randy Smith's "Hello Kitty" line clips are superior. 
Of the available options, Randy's clips are the most similar to Luxon's in operation.

I've been wondering forever now what in the world a hello kitty clip looks like. Finally I have to wonder no longer!  Pretty cool looking clip!

[peabody]

The clips that scare me are the "swivel" type...
And a swivel type is the only one that I have seen fail....
Two or three parts for something as simple and critical seems foolish

[Dan McEntee]

   I have used all three and have them in my flight box. They all have their potential short comings, and all require a bit of attention to detail to make sure they are installed and connected properly. And I don't really see the hello Kitty pieces as any better that the Luxon as far as hanging up against each other goes. If you run your lead outs that close together, then maybe the connections should be staggered to help prevent that. The big thing is to get the proper size for the event and model weight and pull test required. I got some of the connectors that Brett mentions and the neat thing is that they come in two colors, and one color can go on the up line and the other on down. Another little help to prevent lines from getting hook up backwards.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Jim Svitko]

I have used all three of the connectors shown in the photo.  All work but each has good points and bad.  My least favorite is the Luxon type connector, which has the slider piece.

If you use the Luxon style connector, be careful.  Not all Luxon connectors are created equal.  Some are OK, others are not.  On the lousy ones, the slider can move without depressing the wire to clear the small lock tab.  With very little force on some of these connectors, I was able to move the slider back and forth.  If that happened in flight, the connector will open and a disaster might follow.

Also, I have seen Luxon type connectors of different wire diameter.

[john e. holliday]

I have used all thee types of line clips.   also seen lines attached to the bell crank with no clips.   I used the slide clips om a class II carrier powered by a McCoy Redhead 60 for years with no problem.  It is when a person fails to close the slide clip properly that I've seen fail.    I felt sorry for the young lad as it was first flight on new stunt plane.   

[Trostle]

The clips that scare me are the "swivel" type...
And a swivel type is the only one that I have seen fail....
Two or three parts for something as simple and critical seems foolish

Control Line General Rule 5.:  "No swivels are to be used as part of the control system of Control Line models."

Keith

[FLOYD CARTER]

I've used the slider-type connectors on large 60-size planes for many years.  There are stories about the slider coming open and the wire straightening out.  Nonsense!  The forces on the connector, even with the slider open, are such that it will not open and release the lines.  Scary, but still safe.

[Brett Buck]

I've used the slider-type connectors on large 60-size planes for many years.  There are stories about the slider coming open and the wire straightening out.  Nonsense!  The forces on the connector, even with the slider open, are such that it will not open and release the lines.  Scary, but still safe.

   Mr Walker would disagree with you (he is the one who did not permit them at the NATs - while assisting the affected fliers in getting acceptable connectors - for instance, Josias got some of my McRosco snaps), and in some circumstances, you would not be allowed to fly with them. Many airplanes will straighten those connectors right out if the slider opens up.

    Brett
   
   

[Paul Walker]

I've used the slider-type connectors on large 60-size planes for many years.  There are stories about the slider coming open and the wire straightening out.  Nonsense!  The forces on the connector, even with the slider open, are such that it will not open and release the lines.  Scary, but still safe.

Nonsense to your nonsense Floyd.

In fact, that slider connector has opened up and caused a crash. I believe it was the '82 Nat's where Bob Whitely failed to secure the slider and on the outside bottom corner of the reverse wing over when he banged that corner it overloaded, straightened out an he did a near straight in nose dive, removing the entire fuse forward of the wing.

I remember this because he repaired it and in the end nosed me out by 0.5 points for tenth place. I just missed a trophy because of his heroic repair.

So, they CAN AND HAVE failed, even by a National Champ.

Best bet is to steer very clear of them.

[Dan McEntee]

   Now, too be clear, I can understand and accept the fact that a Luxon connector will straighten out with enough pull, if you forget to preposition the slider properly.  In the case of RJ having the failure, he failed to execute the device properly by not having it secured as it should be. The other types of connectors are capable of a similar failure, if you do not confirm that they are installed and secured as they should be. I have caught myself, and several other people that did not have the "scissor" style, ( I don't know what else to call it) completely fed through the lead out thimble, or at the handle and only hooked on one side. We all get to BSing at the flight line, get in a hurry because we want to fly and such, and miss a little detail. I try to concentrate on attaching my lines, no matter which connector I'm using, and double check that connection and then the action of the controls, each time I hook up. The same routine whether it's a Cox PT-19 or a ST.60 powered model. When I get to the circle, I run my lines out and check both ends again. After engine start, I check the model end one more time, and again at the handle. I have caught myself a couple of times this way, and caught a few other guys the same way when just pitting for them. I tried to teach Sean this from an early age, and bless his heart, one time when he was just 8 years old or so, was holding the Shark.45 for me down at Buder, and when I signaled to launch, he just sat there looking at me. I signaled again, and he did not move. He was afraid to let go of the model with one hand to point out an issue with the lead out connector, and trusted that I would not be mad at him for not launching! Since then I always eyeball a guys lead outs when launching for them, especially if it's a new guy or anyone that is limited in experience. Avoiding a crash is just that simple. So in short, the other style of connectors are not infallible either. No matter what you use, it still take due diligence to use them correctly. All except the swivels! I only use them on my stooge line!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Howard Rush]

Paul laid down the law on structural issues at work, so his clip pronouncement was in character. It was humorous, though, to see him in a technical discussion with Brenda on handle structural allowables.

Marvin Denny did some thorough testing of line terminations and line clips about 1974. He concluded that the Perfect brand Luxon clips, rated at 49 lb., were good for 49 lb. with the slider in place and 25 lb. with the slider open. 

I prefer the slider type for combat, because they don’t twist up like the McMahon connectors. I use the latter for the airplane end of stunt lines. In stunt, there is plenty of time to check line clips during one’s confident stride to the handle. I cover the clips on the handle end with tubing.

Line clip drag is a consideration. A cylinder has a heap of drag, so big ugly clips can be a trim problem. Putting heat shrink tubing on them makes drag worse, and possibly inconsistent.

[Paul Walker]

The difference between the various types is the material they are made from. The Luxon  slider type is made from very soft wire. It has a VERY low yield point, and if not locked properly will just give until the line connector slides off, which is what happened to RJ.

I use the scissor type which I make from 0.045" piano wire. I have not tested them, as I am convinced they have many tines the capability of the lines themselves.
I too have had the line connector connected to only one of the two "scissors", and after several flights discovered this, but there was no issue with much stiffer/stronger material in the clip.

Do what you want, but cry later about the Luxon clips failing.

[Brett Buck]

Paul laid down the law on structural issues at work, so his clip pronouncement was in character. It was humorous, though, to see him in a technical discussion with Brenda on handle structural allowables.

  I know *exactly* how those discussions go, as recently as 3 hours ago...

    Brett

[Dave Harmon]

There are stories about the slider coming open and the wire straightening out. 

I'll have to chime in here and repeat the "nonsense to your nonsense" comment Floyd.
I lost a borrowed Palmer 'Mars' because of those ^%$#$* Luxon clips coming open.
I had to replace that airplane.

I had always been very careful to be sure the slider was properly positioned before takeoff....it was properly positioned on this flight and all other flights since then.
More recently I have got rid of all the Luxon clips on all my airplanes and handles and started bending my own clips using the Jim Lee tool.
It works great!!

Dave

[Steve Helmick]

I'll have to chime in here and repeat the "nonsense to your nonsense" comment Floyd.
I lost a borrowed Palmer 'Mars' because of those ^%$#$* Luxon clips coming open.
I had to replace that airplane.

I had always been very careful to be sure the slider was properly positioned before takeoff....it was properly positioned on this flight and all other flights since then.
More recently I have got rid of all the Luxon clips on all my airplanes and handles and started bending my own clips using the Jim Lee tool.
It works great!!

Dave 

Yep, ABSOLUTELY.

I would ask if Paul's banning of the funky clips was announced prior to that NATS, if subsequent ED's carried that ban onward, and if they have, why isn't it in the rulebook? Seems like it should be. If they aren't allowed at the NATS, they shouldn't be allowed anyplace.  Steve

[Ken Culbertson]

I've used the slider-type connectors on large 60-size planes for many years.  There are stories about the slider coming open and the wire straightening out.  Nonsense!  The forces on the connector, even with the slider open, are such that it will not open and release the lines.  Scary, but still safe.

I have seen several times when these clips have failed in lost tension races to get to the other side and that was in the day when a .35 was the "big ship".  Never have I seen both clips fail. So if all we are preventing by banning them is not getting to watch some non-believer rummage through what is left for usable parts before heading to the dumpster then I say use them if you want.  Non-flier spectators love a good crash.

The scissors clips have their own horror stories too but they are recoverable.  You either get a busted prop (usually your favorite one) or a sore wrist from 5-6 minutes in a funny position while you wish your fuel filter would clog up just this one time.

Just out of curiosity, has anybody had a failure of the "Hello Kitty" clips?  They look both failure and snag proof.

Ken