Less than thrilled with AMA plan service.

[Andrew Borgogna]

First off let me speak to the good things about this service.  They are prompt in delivery, the person at the other end of the phone is courteous helpful and general a nice person to work with.  My issue is with the plans themselves.  The last two sets have really been of poor quality.  I just received a set of what is advertised as Veco Tomahawk plans, first off they are not plans from the Veco kit, I know I had the kit.  They appear to be drawn up on a drafting table and the quality is less than what I expected.  First off the wing is not the original Veco wing, this one has a sheeted "C" tube leading edge.  The original had square stock leading edge, the sheeting does not come to the high point of the wing and the spars called out are different in size and location to the original.   Funny thing is this wing is most likely a better design than the original, but what does it do to me if I want to use it in an Classic contest? 

Has anybody else had this kind of issue with the AMA plans service?
Andy

[john e. holliday]

Hi Andy,  I hope you realize there are two versions of the Veco Tomahawk.  I think when Dumas took over the design was changed.  I bought a Brodak kit that was supposed to be the original and it wasn't.  It was the newer version that my son used to fly.  I wanted the original as it was one I flew.  I contacted Brodak and got a kit of the original version.  Seems the first run of kits was not the original.  Also, was there a picture of the plane or plan on the site?  Would love to see the plan myself.  Anyway, MERRY CHRISTMAS,  DOC Holliday 

[Marvin Denny]

  I have three versions of the "original" Veco Tomahawk.  All three are different.  One The original versionthat got changed by Veco upon production,and then the third that got changed when Dumas took over the Veco products.  Tips, high point of wing rib, LE and numerious other things are different from one to the other.
  I think hat Brodak's has a kit out for one or evenperhaps two versions. You might phone them and see if their plans are the ones you want.  I am sure they will sell the plans separately.

  Bigiron

[Trostle]

Andy,  this is not to take issue with the AMA plans service or with what you wrote.  I am not sure the background on the specific set of plans that you received, but this might provide somewhat of an explanation.  The AMA plans service was initiated several years ago after the AMA purchased what was then the Pond Plans Service.  John Pond had accumulated a massive collection of plans and his catalog was quite large.  Many of the plans that he had were copies of copies and some were tracings of kit plans of questionable origin.  At least, his service was a source for material that often times was not available anywhere else.  The AMA had the forsight to purchase that collection and added the plans that were from the American Modeler and American Aircraft Modeler catalogs that Model Aviation acquired.  I doubt if the AMA has the resources to fully check out those drawings that came from the Pond collection that might have been the tracings from whatever source they came from.

In general, the plans available from the AMA plans service are of higher quality than what was previously available from the Pond service.  I have found the plans from the AMA service made from old magazines plans are generally dimensionally more accurate than was was previously available.  The AMA went to some expense to obtain copy equipment that does not distort copies and even has made some of the older Pond plans dimensionally more accurate.  The copies are generally much cleaner that give the appearance of not being made from several generations of copies that were sometimes provided by the Pond service.  This is not a complaint against what the Pond service once was as that was a resource unequaled at the time for old plans.

Maybe Bob Hunt could elaborate a bit more on this as he was involved or at least aware of the AMA purchase of the Pond collection and establishing the AMA plans service.

Keith Trostle

[Balsa Butcher]

This is from memory so someone please correct me if I am in error - no offense will be taken OK, that said...
Andy, I think the plans you ordered were from an feature article by the late Mike Garmin.  The design was an update of an old classic and never claimed to be the original.  I don't remember now if it would be eligible for classic but I'm confident that that issue would have been addressed in the article which accompanied the plans.  This article can be accessed through the AMA web by month and year of the magazine it was published in.  I have found this to be a helpful service and reading C/L construction articles sure beats doing this  when things are a little slow on the job    If they were original John Pond plans rather than MA plans, well...never mind.

[Andrew Borgogna]

I think Keith (Mr. Trostle that is)  has hit the nail on the head, the plans I have appear to be a tracing.  I have no problem with the quality, and since there does not appear to be a "original" Veco Tomahawk the plans I have may very well be one of the variants that were produced during the life of this plane.  I will go over the plans again with more attention paid to the information box maybe there is an explanation to the origin of the plans I have.  The catalog stated it is a set of plans for the Veco product and maybe it is.  Having once had the Veco kit circa 1958, and having scratch built one from a differant set of plans (I can no long locate arrgg!) I know the plans I have now have a different wing than I was expecting.  That's not to say they are not correct in light of what I now know.  I will build the plane per the plans I have and present it as a Classic design and see what the contest CD say.
Andy

[Ron King]

I will build the plane per the plans I have and present it as a Classic design and see what the contest CD say.

Andy,

I built my Veco Tomahawk in 1964 and cannot remember what type of wing construction it used. If it looks like a Tomahawk, it is a Tomahawk in my book. 

Your Tomahawk would be welcome at every contest I've ever attended. I have been a CD for almost thirty years and I've never seen any protests when the modeler made a legitimate attempt to replicate a classic design. There is no prize money at stake and the vast majority of us are ready and willing to accept a fellow competitor's efforts.

Take care,

Ron

[Rudy Taube]

Hi Andy,

What Ron said!

As the CD for our "Bob Palmer Memorial" contest in 2008, let me just say your Tomahawk is "pre-approved" in Classic. :-)   

I have a soft spot for that plane. It was the 1st "big" plane (larger than a 1/2A) I ever successfully flew when I was about 9. I really liked that plane. After a "fun" combat midair that took the outboard wing off the Tomahawk it just kept on flying. It flew so well, (funny, but OK), we launched it for another flight. What did we know, we were just kids happy to get a plane in the air! 

You build so fast, I'm looking forward to seeing your Tomahawk at our Jan meeting. If it is as nice as all your other models, it will be a pleasure to see it fly. 

Regards, 

[Paul Smith]

 They appear to be drawn up on a drafting table and the quality is less than what I expected.

Has anybody else had this kind of issue with the AMA plans service?

Andy

That line kinda sets me off.  Hand drafting is a skill and some people are very good at it.  Until recently, that's how model airplanes, real airplanes, cars and buildings were drawn.  A lot good ones were drawn that way.

I've drawn by hand and I still do.  At work I used Applicon, Fisher Graphics, and several versions of AutoCad.  Believe me, there is also such a thing as sloppy computer drafting.

If you want to build a historic model, be happy you can find any drawings at all.   They don't need to be perfect to get a plane together.

I haven't bought plans from AMA, but I've bought plans drawns by great stunt flyers from other sources.  Their drafting teacher would probably grade it "C" work, but you can build from them.

[Bill Little]

From personal experience, I have built a full blown piped stunt ship from a set of full size pencil drawings of the fuselage profile, a tip and root rib drawing, and dimensions marked on the sheet.

It ain't hard if you have built models.

[Keith Spriggs]

Hi Andy,

 

I have a soft spot for that plane. It was the 1st "big" plane (larger than a 1/2A) I ever successfully flew when I was about 9. Regards, 

My first "big plane" was also a Tomahawk, all though I was considerably older than 9. I decided to get a set of plans from a friend and build another one. Some of you will recognize the pilot wearing those bib overalls. As you can see he has his eyes covered and he is screaming like a baby. I guess he is concerned about his flying abilities, as well he should be.

[Andrew Borgogna]

Keith
A quick look at the wing on your plane is exactly the way I remember the Tomahawk wing construction.  It is clear from the monokote that there is no sheeting on the leading edge.  The remainder of the plane is the same.

Regarding the statement about being hand drawn, I did not intend to belittle any draftsmans skills.  It was simply to point out the drawing was not a copy of the original Veco plans, I guess in hind sight I should have made that clearer.  I too have spent hours on a drafting board drawing plans for scale planes when I was still building models on the Dark Side.  I do appreciate the work that goes into the engineering and drawing of good plans.  Since my interest in control line is mainly models form the 50's I find it much easier to buy plans and build from them. 

I really have no issue with the quality of drawings, my main issue was the catalog said it was the Veco Tomahawk and I question the authenticity of the drawing.  But as has been pointed out there seems to have been multiple versions of authentic Veco Tomahawks.  What I was expecting was plans for the plane in the picture from Keith and that's not what I got.
Andy

[Dennis Adamisin]

Did any of the Tomahawk KITS have plans you could build from - i.e., full size outlines?  I do not recall that any of the Veco kits had anything except the isometric view assembly sequence pix?

[EddyR]

Dennis is correct on the small three views on the plans. I have seen several Brodak old time planes changed quite a bit but no one had a problem with them at our contest. I too built the Tomahawk and the "Ton Tom built up version" back in the day and there was no leading edge sheeting. The Tom Tom if built from a kit would almost guarantee that the wing would fold as the top and bottom spars were very close together. The one in the picture above looks just like the ones we flew in the 50's. I like it.
Ed

[john e. holliday]

Andy. the plans that are in the second Original Tomahawk kit by Brodak look just like Keith Sprigg's plane.  Brodak has the plans listed on his site separate from a kit.  DOC Holliday

[Steve Helmick]

There was a Tomahawk II that was designed by Larry Kruse. It's bigger than a Veco Tomahawk, not Classic Legal, but then there's no rule that allows disqualification in Classic for indiscretions in building. And it's kitted by Dare Design, in NJ, maybe. Nice plane for a modern .25.

I can't 'splain the plans, but they likely came from the John Pond collection. Those plans were largely redrawn by hand, and were not done by modelers, but by draftsmen (Navy?) as time fillers. I read that John Pond was their supervisor or instructor, or something. Anyway, their efforts were not always top drawer (pun intended). And/or inaccurate, and often lacking needed information. Many were also blatant copies of kit or magazine plans, so it's hard to predict what you'll receive. 

I'd also suggest the Brodak plans, if you want the authentic Tomahawk. It might be slightly different, but should be close enough to satisfy almost everybody. I have a CLC kit, and a Veco .19 to put on it. It'll be my first real Tomahawk, and I think it'll fly real good.  Steve

[Warren Leadbeatter]

I just spotted a vintage Dumus Tomahawk Kit on ebay so I thought I would let you know in case you are interested. Looks like the same one to me.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260193090806&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:PIC&ih=016

[Keith Spriggs]

Andy. the plans that are in the second Original Tomahawk kit by Brodak look just like Keith Sprigg's plane.  Brodak has the plans listed on his site separate from a kit.  DOC Holliday

I found the plans that I built from and they are Brodak plans.

[john e. holliday]

I just spotted a vintage Dumus Tomahawk Kit on ebay so I thought I would let you know in case you are interested. Looks like the same one to me.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260193090806&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:PIC&ih=016

Yep, that is the Dumas Kit of the Tomahawk.  The Veco version is a completely different design.  I know as I had the Veco kit as a teenager.  The Dumas kit was built for my son.  He flew it in his first contest in St Louis 30+ years ago.  DOC Holliday

[Steve Helmick]

Doc is correct, in that Dumas only kitted that version (Flite Streak wannabe), but Veco did kit the jazzed up Flite Streak lookin' version, as well as the original Tomahawk as in the pictures above. None of those had leading edge sheeting, FWIW.  Steve