Les Nering's Viking

[Bill Mohrbacher]

The week before last was the Skylarks of Sharon swap meet, der Spielmaster's old club.  It usually brings out some ukie stuff.  Les Nering had this beautiful Viking out for sale.  Dope and silkspan and a marvelously detailed Fox 59.  Wondeful work, huh?   

[Patrick Rowan]

Les is a pro class builder.

His Viking also flys vary well.

[EddyR]

That has to be one of the best looking Viking's I have ever seen. The cowling on the 59 it super nice
Ed

[louie klein]

Do you know what that beauty sold for?  ---LOUIE

[FLOYD CARTER]

I really appreciate seeing a nice OTS plane with just TWO colors!  Expertly applied, of course.  (some people get carried away with paint--all those clashing colors make me dizzy!)

Floyd

[Randy Cuberly]

This Viking is certainly gorgeous.  Nothing less would be expected from Les.
It does however raise a question that I thought I received an answer to some time ago but this beautiful airplane raises that question again.
In the past several Vikings have been built and flown at VSC.  One was by me and another was built by Lou Wolgast.  Mine was built from plans as I believe was Mr Wolgast's
Later when the Brodak kit became available I purchased one and noticed that the leading edge of the wing was sheeted.  None of the Vikings previoulsy built or flown in this area had sheeted leading edges, just the single element leading edge with ribs.
At that time I questioned wether or not the sheeted leading edge would be legal for Old Time Stunt and was told by several "official types" that it would not.  The reasoning was that it was a change in airfoil from the original.
Now I notice this beautiful Viking with a sheeted leading edge and wish to bring up the question again.

Puzzled,
Randy Cuberly   

[wwwarbird]

 Very nice!

[Bill Little]

Very nice looking Viking!

Randy,  I have no idea as to why some designs are allowed and others are not.  Maye it's just a matter of the CD wanting more participation and allowing them to fly.  To me, a sheeted LE doesn't matter.  The plane looks like an OTS Viking.  In my hands, no one will be threatened regardless of what I fly in OTS!  I have been flying a Super Clown WITH flaps, which means I automatically give up points before the meet begins.  But I still have a ball flying and remembering the pattern!   I will eventually have another plane without flaps but I will never strike fear in the hearts of the OTS "Hot Shots" that show up at Huntersville.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[john e. holliday]

As Big Bear says, it depends on what part of this great land you are in.   

[Randy Cuberly]

Very nice looking Viking!

Randy,  I have no idea as to why some designs are allowed and others are not.  Maye it's just a matter of the CD wanting more participation and allowing them to fly.  To me, a sheeted LE doesn't matter.  The plane looks like an OTS Viking.  In my hands, no one will be threatened regardless of what I fly in OTS!  I have been flying a Super Clown WITH flaps, which means I automatically give up points before the meet begins.  But I still have a ball flying and remembering the pattern!   I will eventually have another plane without flaps but I will never strike fear in the hearts of the OTS "Hot Shots" that show up at Huntersville.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Bill,
While I'm inclined to agree with you, the PAMPA rules for Old Time stunt are specific about changes that are intended to improve the flight chacteristics such as moments and airfoil etc.

Randy C.

[Tom Niebuhr]

We can use the Ringmaster as setting the precedence. The newer version with the sheeted leading edge is illegal.

That should follow through in this case with the Viking.

I have to say that Les is a great builder and this airplane is beautiful. It is hard to definitely see the leading edge, but if it is sheeted it is not legal.

[Dennis Toth]

Randy,
One explanation for the sheeted Viking being allow is that John B may have found a different version from the pre 1952 time period that he got approved. This was done with several ships like the Barnstormer and Smoothie. For the Smoothie the current kit version has a conventional airfoil rather than the "Laminar" airfoil in the published version. The change was verified by Bob Palmer to John. Palmer confirmed that he did have a second version with the more conventional airfoil that he would fly for the normal wind situations. This might be the case with the Viking. Now comparing this to the "sheeted" Ringmaster where the change to the Ringmaster was made in the 70 - 80's not pre 1952 so it is not the same.

Best,      DennisT

[Randy Cuberly]

Randy,
One explanation for the sheeted Viking being allow is that John B may have found a different version from the pre 1952 time period that he got approved. This was done with several ships like the Barnstormer and Smoothie. For the Smoothie the current kit version has a conventional airfoil rather than the "Laminar" airfoil in the published version. The change was verified by Bob Palmer to John. Palmer confirmed that he did have a second version with the more conventional airfoil that he would fly for the normal wind situations. This might be the case with the Viking. Now comparing this to the "sheeted" Ringmaster where the change to the Ringmaster was made in the 70 - 80's not pre 1952 so it is not the same.

Best,      DennisT

Dennis
Well if this is true then it needs to be verified.  Something needs to be documented to show that version.  All my searches and questions turned up nothing.  If John or someone else has evidence of the sheeted leading edge being in existence prior to 1953 please come forward with it.
Personally I don't think it exists but would like to be proven wrong!  Currently all I can find is that unlike the Ringmaster being changed in the 70's, by Sterling, the Viking was changed in the 21st century by John Brodak.

Randy Cuberly

[Ward Van Duzer]

FWIW...

A few years back I built an F and B Vampire. The plane I learned to fly inverted! You may recall this is the baby sister of the Viking. At that time there were no laser kits, plans, etc available...so I borrowed John Miskes original kit. I copied everything including the box art! The Vampire has a sheeted Leading edge! That, of course does not mean that the Viking did (or some version of the Viking). Like I said, FWIW! It is not the classic sheeted LE like we see today on most models where the sheeting goes back to the high point. This sheeting was only about 1 3/4 inches wide with a leading edge spar about 3/16th X 1/2 laid horizontally into the rib. I flew mine at Brodaks the year before he kitted the Vampire. I have no clue what the B' kit looks like...

So be it!

Ward-O

[Randy Cuberly]

FWIW...

A few years back I built an F and B Vampire. The plane I learned to fly inverted! You may recall this is the baby sister of the Viking. At that time there were no laser kits, plans, etc available...so I borrowed John Miskes original kit. I copied everything including the box art! The Vampire has a sheeted Leading edge! That, of course does not mean that the Viking did (or some version of the Viking). Like I said, FWIW! It is not the classic sheeted LE like we see today on most models where the sheeting goes back to the high point. This sheeting was only about 1 3/4 inches wide with a leading edge spar about 3/16th X 1/2 laid horizontally into the rib. I flew mine at Brodaks the year before he kitted the Vampire. I have no clue what the B' kit looks like...

So be it!

Ward-O

Thanks Ward,
Good info even if it's not conclusive.  The Brodak Viking kit has sheeting back to the spar (about 3 inches).

Randy C.

[Chuck Feldman]

Here we go again?  P-40  Viking  Ringmaster Chief and others.   What is the point of all this debate? If you bring one of these models to a contest you can fly it. Sure the local rules may affect the scoring in a minor way but who cares. No one will disallow any of these models.


I find it hard to believe there is an Illegal version of the Ringmaster. Because the wing is different internally? Hm-mm I thought the rule was you could not change the physical design of the model externally. Like moving the landing gear. Sheeting a leading edge is not an external change. While doing the more modern thing and rounding out the wings leading edge is, yet it is allowed.

I thought just the other day day that an improvement to the ringmaster would be to run top and bottom spars at the highest part of the airfoil section. This would stiffen the wing but make no external change. Who knows maybe the dumb spar that is standard could be removed. Again no external change. 

I'm just saying.   Thanks rw

Chuck

[billbyles]

Here we go again?  P-40  Viking  Ringmaster Chief and others.   What is the point of all this debate? If you bring one of these models to a contest you can fly it. Sure the local rules may affect the scoring in a minor way but who cares. No one will disallow any of these models.


I find it hard to believe there is an Illegal version of the Ringmaster. Because the wing is different internally? Hm-mm I thought the rule was you could not change the physical design of the model externally. Like moving the landing gear. Sheeting a leading edge is not an external change. While doing the more modern thing and rounding out the wings leading edge is, yet it is allowed.

I thought just the other day day that an improvement to the ringmaster would be to run top and bottom spars at the highest part of the airfoil section. This would stiffen the wing but make no external change. Who knows maybe the dumb spar that is standard could be removed. Again no external change. 

I'm just saying.   Thanks rw

Chuck

Sheeting the leading edge of airplanes like the original: Viking, Ringmaster, Zilch series, et al does improve the airfoil at the most important part which is the first 20% or so of the airfoil, so this is not just an internal change of structure.  I'm not sure why you find it so hard to believe that there could be an illegal version of the Ringmaster when there clearly is one.  I don't care what is done to any model airplane, but if it is to be flown in a contest governed by existing rules then it should conform to the rules.  You can parse words all you want but some changes to OTS & Classic airplanes do cause them to not conform to the rules & they are, therefore, not legal to be flown in their respective events.  Otherwise, what is the point in having a contest?

[dennis lipsett]

When I built my first Ringmaster as a kid I formed the opinion that the 'spar' was really just a stick to hold the ribs in place to align the leading and trailing edge. It certainly didn't do much for rigidity on the structure.
Dennis

[Bill Mohrbacher]

And it really didn't do much of an alignment job.  On the Sterling Ringmasters and Mustangs I built, there was no way on a given rib, the LE, TE, and spar were in the right spot.

[dennis lipsett]

And it really didn't do much of an alignment job.  On the Sterling Ringmasters and Mustangs I built, there was no way on a given rib, the LE, TE, and spar were in the right spot.

Bill,
I agree completely

Dennis

[Randy Cuberly]

Here we go again?  P-40  Viking  Ringmaster Chief and others.   What is the point of all this debate? If you bring one of these models to a contest you can fly it. Sure the local rules may affect the scoring in a minor way but who cares. No one will disallow any of these models.


I find it hard to believe there is an Illegal version of the Ringmaster. Because the wing is different internally? Hm-mm I thought the rule was you could not change the physical design of the model externally. Like moving the landing gear. Sheeting a leading edge is not an external change. While doing the more modern thing and rounding out the wings leading edge is, yet it is allowed.

I thought just the other day day that an improvement to the ringmaster would be to run top and bottom spars at the highest part of the airfoil section. This would stiffen the wing but make no external change. Who knows maybe the dumb spar that is standard could be removed. Again no external change. 

I'm just saying.   Thanks rw

Chuck

Not much to say here except you're fantasizing!  Bring a sheeted Ringmaster or Viking to VSC and you won't fly it...not in the contest at any rate.
By your interpretation I could bring a foam wing sheeted Impact to a classic contest if I simply call it a Nobler...pure nonsense...rules have to mean something or there's no competition.

Randy C.

[Chuck Feldman]

So what exactly is the illegal Ringmaster? What is Illegal? You know the defect? exactly what is it?

If one was to build an OTS model that did not have a sheeted leading edge with a sheeted leading edge what rule has been broken? Please quot the rule as it is written. If the model flies better than a non sheeted leading edge version why? I do not think you can say it is because it is sheeted. The improved flying is subjective. Who can say?

The point I am making is that the debate over these issues is for what purpose. Of all the models I mentioned only one is really ruled illegal. That is the ringmaster.  There have been many conversations about the others but they are allowed.

Thanks,

Chuck

[Bill Little]

So what exactly is the illegal Ringmaster? What is Illegal? You know the defect? exactly what is it?

If one was to build an OTS model that did not have a sheeted leading edge with a sheeted leading edge what rule has been broken? Please quot the rule as it is written. If the model flies better than a non sheeted leading edge version why? I do not think you can say it is because it is sheeted. The improved flying is subjective. Who can say?

The point I am making is that the debate over these issues is for what purpose. Of all the models I mentioned only one is really ruled illegal. That is the ringmaster.  There have been many conversations about the others but they are allowed.

Thanks,

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

Part of the problem as I see it (as a part time competitor in OTS) is that there are two major sets of rules.  the original GSCB and PAMPA.  The Bob Elliott P-40 you listed is definitely in by the PAMPA rules since it was known to have won contests in 1952, before the cut off.  By "strict" GSCB rules it is out because it was not published or kitted before the cut off. 

The LE sheeting of the S-1A "changes the airfoil" so it is "out". 

Then we get to local meets and the CD lets fly what he wants to.  All of which gets confusing...........

Bill

[billbyles]

So what exactly is the illegal Ringmaster? What is Illegal? You know the defect? exactly what is it?

If one was to build an OTS model that did not have a sheeted leading edge with a sheeted leading edge what rule has been broken? Please quot the rule as it is written. If the model flies better than a non sheeted leading edge version why? I do not think you can say it is because it is sheeted. The improved flying is subjective. Who can say?

The point I am making is that the debate over these issues is for what purpose. Of all the models I mentioned only one is really ruled illegal. That is the ringmaster.  There have been many conversations about the others but they are allowed.

Thanks,

Chuck

I posted the following after your first post but it doesn't sound like you bothered to read it:

Sheeting the leading edge of airplanes like the original: Viking, Ringmaster, Zilch series, et al does improve the airfoil at the most important part which is the first 20% or so of the airfoil, so this is not just an internal change of structure.  I'm not sure why you find it so hard to believe that there could be an illegal version of the Ringmaster when there clearly is one.  I don't care what is done to any model airplane, but if it is to be flown in a contest governed by existing rules then it should conform to the rules.  You can parse words all you want but some changes to OTS & Classic airplanes do cause them to not conform to the rules & they are, therefore, not legal to be flown in their respective events.  Otherwise, what is the point in having a contest?

[Ward Van Duzer]

Bill is right. An event with no rules is a free for all, a non-event. We all know what is 'legal' for OTS, and what's not. Clearly the source(s) for most this magilla is the kit manufacturers. Surly they all had access to the original plans, kits or whatever when they (re) designed their kits. They had to have known they were creating modern re-engineered model airplanes. The whole purpose of this event (and the classics) is NOSTALGIA. We are supposed to be flying 1940's and 50's engineered models against each other. The same models many of us flew as kids. Just for laughs, imagine an El Diablo with a sheeted leading edge! Would you want to fly your silk and dope Over Easy against a foam, monokoted monster someone created from an old photo?

Let's try to get the manufacturers to correct their kits. In most cases the changes back to the original specifications would be minimal. Some could possibly be done in the print shop by altering the redone plans back to the original specs.

In time the incorrect (I really don't like  "illegal")  model kits will fade from existence and we'll be left with real Old Time Stunt Models.


W.   

[Chuck Feldman]

Will some one please quot the actual rule as it pertains to internal changes.  As for the quotation of things that are actual OTS models and equipment I say you have to be kidding. Monocoat is OK, modern engines are OK, ignition engines that are digitally controlled are OK. Need I go on? To just say that leading edge sheeting that is inside the model is an aerodynamic improve just doesn't cut it in my mind. You have to admit that you do every thing you can to make improvements in the OTS models. There where no 4" bellcranks in the day but they are used in our OTS models. They are in fact an aerodynamic improvement. oh they are not? than why are they being used? How about the props. They where not around in the day either. So look can't you all just see how inconsistent this all is. So then why is a ringmaster with sheeting leading edges illegal.  By the way I have never seen one of the illegal ones. Show a picture of it please. Now they are saying the new Viking is not correct. It should not be allowed. I say why? My effort here is to get some consistency in our rules and the interpretation of them. It is unfortunate that there are two sets of rules but the GSCB have adopted the Pampa rules or at least some of them.  I am interested in getting some reasonable replies to my comments just as have already been given.

Chuck

[Mike Keville]

The current rule is: INTERNAL changes may be made in the interest of strength & safety....as long as such changes don't appear on the surface, change the moments, shapes or airfoils.

Note: contemporary kits of the Flying Clown & Super Clown DO have LE sheeting as well as capstrips....which are most definitely NOT representative of the original PDQ kits, whose wings were sparless.

Also, contemporary kits of the "Sterling" Mustang and Yak-9 have skinny LEs and surface spars....certainly NOT the same as the original kits.

There are others.  I could go on....but better not.  What some are doing to OTS today is causing me to rapidly lose interest.

[billbyles]

Will some one please quot the actual rule as it pertains to internal changes.  As for the quotation of things that are actual OTS models and equipment I say you have to be kidding. Monocoat is OK, modern engines are OK, ignition engines that are digitally controlled are OK. Need I go on? To just say that leading edge sheeting that is inside the model is an aerodynamic improve just doesn't cut it in my mind. You have to admit that you do every thing you can to make improvements in the OTS models. There where no 4" bellcranks in the day but they are used in our OTS models. They are in fact an aerodynamic improvement. oh they are not? than why are they being used? How about the props. They where not around in the day either. So look can't you all just see how inconsistent this all is. So then why is a ringmaster with sheeting leading edges illegal.  By the way I have never seen one of the illegal ones. Show a picture of it please. Now they are saying the new Viking is not correct. It should not be allowed. I say why? My effort here is to get some consistency in our rules and the interpretation of them. It is unfortunate that there are two sets of rules but the GSCB have adopted the Pampa rules or at least some of them.  I am interested in getting some reasonable replies to my comments just as have already been given.

Chuck

Will some one please quot (sic) the actual rule as it pertains to internal changes.  See Mike Keville's explanation above.

Need I go on? You don't need to but you probably will anyway.

To just say that leading edge sheeting that is inside the model is an aerodynamic improve just doesn't cut it in my mind.  So you think that because the leading edge sheeting is under the covering and finish then it can't possibly have any aerodynamic effect, such as changing the approximately 20% of the leading edge of the airfoil - the most critical part?  Your statement about "...just doesn't cut it in my mind." pretty much says it all from your standpoint; you apparently have little understanding of aerodynamics and don't care to learn.

You have to admit that you do every thing you can to make improvements in the OTS models. There where no 4" bellcranks in the day but they are used in our OTS models. They are in fact an aerodynamic improvement. oh they are not? than why are they being used? How about the props. They where not around in the day either.  Read Keville's brief summary of the OTS rules above again (or perhaps for your first time); as long as the changes do not affect the aerodynamics (there's that word again) and are strictly internal then they are OK.  Why are you having so much trouble with this concept?

So look can't you all just see how inconsistent this all is.  It seems that it is mainly you who is having a problem with this...all you want is to change the rules to be what you want them to be (or do you know what you want them to be?)

So then why is a ringmaster with sheeting leading edges illegal.  Again, see my statement just above.  You are really going to beat this one to death, aren't you - at least until you get the answer you want which is... 

By the way I have never seen one of the illegal ones. Show a picture of it please. Now they are saying the new Viking is not correct. It should not be allowed. I say why?  Sheesh...see previous statement above; it's the leading edge sheeting!

My effort here is to get some consistency in our rules and the interpretation of them. It is unfortunate that there are two sets of rules but the GSCB have adopted the Pampa rules or at least some of them.  I am interested in getting some reasonable replies to my comments just as have already been given.  Reasonable...that would be what you want to hear, which is...? 

[Chuck Feldman]

Well there it is, Thank you Mike for showing me the rule. You have cleared this up for me.

Billy, I have fought on until the issue is resolved. Your quite a fighter yourself you know. So with all due respect I will drop this issue. Mike cleared it up by typing out the rule.

Chuck

[john e. holliday]

Go to   control-line.org   .  Then click on documents and scroll down and you will find the PAMPA Old Time Stunt rules.  Read section 3.  May have to be a member of PAMPA tho.

Specifically section 3.2.