legacy to the 'father of modern stunt'

[rob biddle]

 Hi all,

 I didn't want to hijack Paul's thread but it's ironic that I test flew my 1st Nobler today.

 I haven't quite worked out how to post a pic yet but the specs are as follows...

 51 Nobler (built from early Brodak kit), La .46 power (dead stock, with o.s venturi and st nva), 11x5 zinger prop, 10/22 fuel (1/2 castor)
48oz minus fuel. '

 I haven't bothered to tach it yet as I'm letting the fresh engine settle in a bit more, just launched it on the fat side of breaking into a solid wet 2 stroke. After 5 flights it just keeps getting better and better.

 It has a couple of minor trim issues but so far it has been 1 of my best flying models öff the board'
 I don't know why I haven't built one earlier..
 
 Cheers, Rob..

[john e. holliday]

Now you know so many Noblers were built and people had such great success with them. 

[rob biddle]

 Hi John,

 I can surely see why so many designs were based on it during the heyday of .35's.

 Initially, it's hingeing on the transition from insides to outsides and vise versa (tip weight?) and needs a pushrod adjustment to equalise the turn rate. It turns quite fast on insides and is a bit stubborn on outsides. So far she is showing heaps of potential though.

 In hindsight I think it would have been a good idea to have gone to a 4'' bellrank, I like the feel of a wider handle spacing and it's a bit too sporty for that.

 Cheers, Rob...

[Chris McMillin]

You'll find that 35 sized ships need 4 inch bellcranks every bit as much as a larger model.
Chris...

[Dan McEntee]

   If for some reason you can't get or use a 4" bell crank, use the inner most hole on the output arm, and make sure you have plenty of travel in the bell crank. For what you have already built, you need to go to a handle with line spacing that can go down to 2" or so if need be, and there are several available in both cable style and hard point.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[PJ Rowland]

Easy photo upload tool for you Rob :

Google website tinypic

Simply : Upload your photo by selecting it in the specific directory.

let it upload - then click the Automatic program generate the link code.

paste it here. - VERY simple and we all enjoy photos.

[rob biddle]

 Thanks PJ,

 After a bit of head scratching and gnashing of teeth I figured it out

 Looks a bit odd with the red lettering but the colour scheme got changed at the last minute to hide a fubar due to chemical compatibility and I'd already had the vinyl lettering done. In the end I just wanted to get it in the air so I could concentrate on something else..

 Cheers, rob..

[Ted Fancher]

Hi John,

 I can surely see why so many designs were based on it during the heyday of .35's.

 Initially, it's hingeing on the transition from insides to outsides and vise versa (tip weight?) and needs a pushrod adjustment to equalise the turn rate. It turns quite fast on insides and is a bit stubborn on outsides. So far she is showing heaps of potential though.

 In hindsight I think it would have been a good idea to have gone to a 4'' bellrank, I like the feel of a wider handle spacing and it's a bit too sporty for that.

 Cheers, Rob...

Rob,  If built stock the Nobler has a bit more wing asymmetry than is ideal which can cause the hinging you're experiencing.  I had an exceptionally good '51 Nobler built from a Brodak kit that needed a fixed tab affixed to the outboard flap about two inches in span and 0.5" in chord.  This allows the use of an appropriate amount of tip weight to be carried to trim the wings level and the small amount of extra lift generated with deflected flaps compensates for the tendency to throw the wing when maneuvering.

Ted

[rob biddle]

 Thanks Ted,

 I had wondered about this myself because, as you know the outboard flap is tiny as opposed to the inboard flap.

 A few years ago I built a "ramrod' from the original montgomery models kit plan. It has about 2" assymetry and the inboard flap is a fair bit larger than the outboard. Gorgeous little model to fly with a .35 but always rolled like it had ailerons rather than flaps. In hindsight it would have been a simple fix but didn't know enough about trimming back then.

 While building the nobler I was actually wondering if it would require a tab as the flaps look so disproportionate as compared to modern thinking.  

 I think i will slit the outboard flap and epoxy in an aluminium tab to the dimensions you used before I take it out again.

 Cheers, Rob...

[jim ivey]

Well I'll tell ya something I 've geos own yellow nobler at the 59 nats . Thats why I never built one I found it sluggish.  I liked airplanes that flew light kinda floated through maneuvers. the nobler flrw like a "bull-dozer" He didn't fly my airplane be cause he couldn't fly counter-clock.    jim

[Trostle]

(Clip)

 He didn't fly my airplane be cause he couldn't fly counter-clock.    jim

For the record, George could fly the pattern with an airplane that was set up to fly clockwise or counterclockwise. Not only that, he could do the pattern with either hand.

Keith

[Randy Cuberly]

For the record, George could fly the pattern with an airplane that was set up to fly clockwise or counterclockwise. Not only that, he could do the pattern with either hand.

Keith

Amen Keith,
I personally witnessed him doing both at the 59 NAT's...He flew a decent pattern both ways to warm up the judges and train them in his judging clinic (Navy Judges).

Some folks seem to get some strange ideas!

Randy Cuberly

[jim ivey]

did you fly at the 59 nats? you saw geo fly counter clock Other than inverted? funny the only ones I rwmember in hat particular convesation was,Hi, my dad, myself and geo. Did he walk across the water when he left the tarmac? as being the father of stunt there were several before him. Doug knew bob pretty well . when did bob start flying stunt doug? did you know jim saftig or hal debolt both from the late 40s

[PJ Rowland]

I can echo what Ted said about the Asssymetry.

I solved this with my .51 Nobler by cutting in a 2 " Trim tab into the Inboard tab.

To be honest I didnt notice the Nobler - hard to get passed those pins.. *wolf whistle*

[Trostle]

did you fly at the 59 nats? you saw geo fly counter clock Other than inverted? funny the only ones I rwmember in hat particular convesation was,Hi, my dad, myself and geo. Did he walk across the water when he left the tarmac? as being the father of stunt there were several before him. Doug knew bob pretty well . when did bob start flying stunt doug? did you know jim saftig or hal debolt both from the late 40s

If you are referencing Randy' post, you missed the point.  The message is that George could fly the pattern, both ways with either hand.  That is a fact.  It is nice to know that you were witness to a conversation between George, Hi Johnson and your dad.  I would like to have had an experience like that.  Same about whatever association you had with Jim Saftig and Hal deBolt. Good for you.

Keith

[Randy Cuberly]

did you fly at the 59 nats? you saw geo fly counter clock Other than inverted? funny the only ones I rwmember in hat particular convesation was,Hi, my dad, myself and geo. Did he walk across the water when he left the tarmac? as being the father of stunt there were several before him. Doug knew bob pretty well . when did bob start flying stunt doug? did you know jim saftig or hal debolt both from the late 40s

Jim,
I did fly at the 59 NAT's, as a senior.
While primarily a combat flyer I also flew stunt with a Green Box Nobler painted red and black.  I wasn't very good at stunt as I never practiced and even had some trouble remembering the pattern.  I did however see George fly several flights both clockwise and counterclockwise ( with my airplane) helping me trim it.  George was a real Gentleman and did not walk on water but certainly helped me with trimming problems.
George is recognized as the "Father of MODERN stunt" because he pretty much designed the modern pattern.  Yes there were other inputs but George put it all together.
I never had the pleasure of meeting those other fine gentlemen you mentioned but George was my hero!

Randy Cuberly

[john e. holliday]

Well in 1964 in the Grand Prairie Navel Airstation NATS, Don Still and George Aldrich did a demo flight before the awards ceremony.  They were both flying Stuka Stunts the same direction which was counter clock wise.   I still remember who handed out the awards as one of my club members won the Junior National Championship that year.   I think Randy Cuberly knew the Meriwether's a lot better than I did. 

[Larry Fernandez]

did you fly at the 59 nats? you saw geo fly counter clock Other than inverted? funny the only ones I rwmember in hat particular convesation was,Hi, my dad, myself and geo. Did he walk across the water when he left the tarmac? as being the father of stunt there were several before him. Doug knew bob pretty well . when did bob start flying stunt doug? did you know jim saftig or hal debolt both from the late 40s

Jim,
Two words.
SPELL CHECK
Thank you.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[john e. holliday]

Maybe he has same problem I do.   A communication link between the brain, hands and keyboard.    I blame mine on the keyboard.

[Randy Cuberly]

Well in 1964 in the Grand Prairie Navel Airstation NATS, Don Still and George Aldrich did a demo flight before the awards ceremony.  They were both flying Stuka Stunts the same direction which was counter clock wise.   I still remember who handed out the awards as one of my club members won the Junior National Championship that year.   I think Randy Cuberly knew the Meriwether's a lot better than I did. 

Hi Doc,
Actually I went to the NAT's in question (59) with Byron, Wayne, and  little Mike...
Byron provided my transportation to a lot of contests.
I've missed him for a long time.

Randy Cuberly

[dale gleason]

GMA flew at a contest I attended in Longview, Texas, either '56 or '57. It was there he introduced the FliteStreak, flying it counterclockwise.   He won Open Combat with it flying the new Fox Combat Special. He also won Open Stunt that day with a Maroon Nobler flying it clockwise.

It was hot and dry that day, and windy...had there been rain I'm sure he could have walked on water easily.

Reminicing with him about that meet was a high point for me at VSCs forty or so years later, thanks, Mike Keville!

dg

[Mike Keville]

Reminicing with [GMA] about that meet was a high point for me at VSCs forty or so years later, thanks, Mike Keville!

dg

=============================================================

Thanx, Captain.  Glad I was able to provide something that helped provide the re-connection.  You and Linda-Bob have been a large part of keeping what's left of REAL modeling going.  We're all doing our best to keep those days alive, despite the efforts of today's Academy of Mostly ARFs.

[Larry Cunningham]

I remember George well from the early VSCs, and I felt surprised and honored when he said he had read one of my letters in Stunt News and had experienced the same problem.. George was a great guy, and he was a broad influence in model airplanes in general. A true competitor.

L.

"Few minds wear out; more rust out." -Christian Nestell Bovee

[Ted Fancher]

Thanks Ted,

 I had wondered about this myself because, as you know the outboard flap is tiny as opposed to the inboard flap.

 A few years ago I built a "ramrod' from the original montgomery models kit plan. It has about 2" assymetry and the inboard flap is a fair bit larger than the outboard. Gorgeous little model to fly with a .35 but always rolled like it had ailerons rather than flaps. In hindsight it would have been a simple fix but didn't know enough about trimming back then.

 While building the nobler I was actually wondering if it would require a tab as the flaps look so disproportionate as compared to modern thinking.  

 I think i will slit the outboard flap and epoxy in an aluminium tab to the dimensions you used before I take it out again.

 Cheers, Rob...

Rob,

First I'd take a piece of thin cardboard cut large enough that it can be doubled over and then taped to the top and bottom of the flap with the desired amount hanging off the trailing edge.  Play with a give and take with tip weight and "tab" size to get the wings level while both in level flight and maneuvers.  When you've got it nailed then make and attach the permanent tab.  Don't start out with something permanent that might need additional trim adjustment!

Hope this catches you in time!

Merry Christmas, Rob.

Ted Fancher

[rob biddle]

 Hi Ted,

 You certainly did catch me in time. I've done a fair bit of o/t at work this week so unfortunately model aircraft have been on the back burner.

 Thanks for the heads up, the nobler is showing a heap of promise so far and justifies a little extra time to dial it in.

 I get back to my normal routine (4 on - 4 off) next week so I entend to hit the local football oval if it's not too hot and burn some fuel.

 Likewise, I hope you and your family have a safe and merry christmas.

 Thanks again, Rob..