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Author Topic: Legacy Build  (Read 64413 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

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Legacy Build
« on: January 28, 2015, 10:30:29 PM »
Well, it's January of 2015, and I'm finally starting work on my new stunter for 2014.  After much backing and forthing (I owe Bob Hunt at least one totally trouble free purchase of a set of wing cores), and a long hiatus first to build some equipment for Howard Rush's trip to the Worlds, and then to catch up on my work, I'm building a Legacy from a Brodak kit.

The kit came to me from Don Curry, then president of the NW Fireballs.  He had been given the kit by someone who got it from who knows where, and he gave it to me because he had no use for it.  Somewhere along the line someone got the wing halves built and bollixed it up so badly that it needs a new wing.  The thing's a horror.  My flying buddy suggested that I string it up on a jig and sheet it, but the spar and leading edge aren't even fully seated in the notches everywhere -- there are spots where there's 3/32" of air between the notch bottom and the spar.  So that wing is going onto the campfire at the flying field sometime soon.

I sorta semi remembered that Brodak sold wing kits, so I emailed them and asked.  It turns out that while they don't catalog wing kits, if you ask nicely they'll make one for you.  It also turns out that you need to be careful what you ask for -- had I asked for a Vector-not-40 wing kit, I would have gotten the right thing the first time.  Imagine my disappointment when I finally got my bench cleaned off, a new building board (2' x 8' x 3/4" melamine) laid down, and started building only to find that I had the wrong kit.

Brodak is full of extremely nice, helpful folks who will fix their errors, even if you just want to keep what they shipped you by mistake and buy a rib kit for the right wing.  They'll be getting more of my business, for sure.

I bought a set of 60" x 8mm carbon fiber rods from a kite shop to use for my wing jig.  This will allow me to build the wing all in one piece if I want.  I also got some shorter rods so I can build two halves.  This wing is going to be jig built, and it's going to be as straight as I can make it.

While I'm waiting for the correct box of goodies to arrive from Brodak, I decided that I'm going to make this kit with a molded leading edge, and that I'm going to make the buck for it.  This should be an adventure, because I've never cut foam for real.  Hopefully I won't waste much time on this -- if I do, I may back out of the molded LE decision and just make it the old fashioned way.

Since I'm doing the cutting in an off-the-cuff what-the-heck sort of way, I just bought a chunk of foam from Home Depot.  Unfortunately, Home Depot (at least around here) doesn't sell foam thicker than 2".  So tonight's work was to make a 4" thick blank using two layers of 2" thick foam.

I'm starting from near-scratch here.  I made a bow from a 5/8" dowel, some 1x2, finish nails, and some used .015" flying lines.  What you see in the picture has about 29" between the bow arms, which is just about exactly what I need to do the job.

I'm using a 12V power supply that I use for charging batteries.  It seems to hold the wire at a decent temperature -- at least, it's not getting hugely hot, and it does cut the foam nicely if I'm patient.  My 30 inches of wire pulls about one amp from the supply.  I have no clue if it's too hot, too cold or just right -- but I'm confident that with care I can cut a buck that'll be good enough to mold leading edges on.

I made a test cut, freehand with the bow and some scrap foam -- it seemed to come out OK.

My flying buddy had, until today, infinitely more experience cutting foam than me -- he has a friend who cuts foam and chats.  I knew from Tom that you want to make tick marks on your cut, and count them out as they go by.  After one cut that happened too fast, my assistant suggested that I make the tick marks spaced closer together, and please count them out as eight notes, in 4/4 time (he's a musician.  that makes perfect sense if you're a musician).

The final picture is my blanks glued together into one master blank.  I'm gluing with epoxy (I don't know what else will cure nicely inside of foam), being careful not to leave any epoxy anywhere that I'll want to cut later.  I'm using my favorite relativistic clamping system, that uses the very curvature of space-time itself to induce force on the items being clamped.

Tomorrow I'll cut the buck and either joyously start molding leading edges, or cursing myself for screwing things up somehow.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2015, 06:34:41 AM »
On your power supply, does it have any means of controlling the current, or is it just a function of your hot wire's resistance ?
I'm liking that relativistic clamp, so as I can figer out what it is.
Molded LE is the way to go.  If your not completely happy with own results let Hunt make a set of bucks for you.
Allan Perret
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 08:38:08 AM »
On your power supply, does it have any means of controlling the current, or is it just a function of your hot wire's resistance ?

It's just constant voltage, that happens to be good enough.  I'm sure that if I got more serious I'd want a controllable supply.

I'm liking that relativistic clamp, so as I can figer out what it is.

It's just gravity and weights.  Don't tell anyone.

Molded LE is the way to go.  If your not completely happy with own results let Hunt make a set of bucks for you.

I'm on a schedule for this one, so if I mess up these bucks I'll build it the old way, and do the next one right.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Mike Griffin

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2015, 09:59:40 AM »
I like your spirit and attitude Tim, I bet everything is going to come out great on this.   I still sheet those leading edges the old fashioned way so I am anxious to see how this goes. 

Mike

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2015, 10:20:39 AM »
If you were local you could borrow the bucks we got with the Legacy lost foam jig. Actually most modern wings are close enough you could probably use the bucks from just about any lost foam jig.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2015, 10:30:38 AM »
If you were local you could borrow the bucks we got with the Legacy lost foam jig. Actually most modern wings are close enough you could probably use the bucks from just about any lost foam jig.

If only.  There's probably bucks somewhere in Portland that I could borrow if only I knew who to ask.

If you know me, you know that I can spend a lot of time grinding through all the possibilities before I start a project.  But there comes a time where, if you want to make progress, you just have to move forward no matter what -- that's where I am now, and if I'm a bit inefficient because of it, at least I'm moving forward.

Besides, I want to do at least a bit of foam cutting, just to see what all the fuss is about.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2015, 12:33:28 PM »
If you go to the building and finishing section at the top of the building part is a thread on how Bobby Hunt does the molding of leading edges.    It is great you are trying this as I still have my foam cutting set up from years ago.   I had to go with the Home Depot foam  to make my wings and such.   Yes I did mess up a few pieces of foam learning.   Probably would have saved time and money if I had just let Bobby do it for me.   But, it was fun.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2015, 02:50:39 PM »
Buck back bonded.  Life is more fun when you use scrap lumber.  The template ends were copied from existing ribs carefully separated from the existing wing.  Not readily apparent is the fact that there are 42 tick marks on each template, so that we can count out the cutting process as we go around the core.  This was done in my lunch hour, with 5-minute epoxy, so by the time help arrives it should be ready to cut.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2015, 06:48:58 PM »
On a buck for stunt wing I think it's best to leave about an inch of foam in front of the templates and cut all the way around the templates.  One of the most difficult parts of cutting, especially without a temperature controlled wire is dishing the front of the leading edge.  I would guess it will take you many tries to get it right...of course you might be luckier than me.  It took me about 10 pieces of foam before I got the hang of it and even then it occassionally goes awray...Just stick with it.  Foam is cheap.

The main reason for leaving more foam around the front is that the area (foam area) gets hotter and the cut must go a little faster  when there is less of it!

I spent a lot of time in the past cutting combat wings...a little less critical but I'm a bit of a perfectionist when producing something!

I leave the stunt wing cutting to Bob Hunt now because He does such a fantastic job of it.  Talk about perfectionists!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2015, 07:27:24 PM »
There was foam all the way around the templates, but it did end up dished in the leading edge -- you can see in the picture that we were going much too fast at the end as we went off the edge there.  So next time we'll have to go slower (or get a different power supply for the foam cutter).

I just corrected the dishing with a sanding board, making sure that I'm maintaining the right rib contour.  I had to take about 1/16" of length off of each end.  It's probably not right, but I suspect it's still better than I could do without the molded leading edge.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 09:13:05 PM »
I'm totally flying blind here, so much of what I'm doing is b'guess and b'gosh.  It all makes sense to me though.  Don't go copying this method until you see that I've finished things and gotten good results!

I couldn't see trying to join the leading edge sheet after I formed it, so I made a wide sheet from two pieces.  I was also concerned about putting the join between two sheets right at the LE -- so I didn't.  The picture shows a central sheet, with the other sheet split in half and glued on to the outside.  Everything is tapered to match the taper on the actual LE sheet, except that I took half an inch off of each side of the wide sheet, then half an inch off of each of the split-off pieces.  The tapered pieces are glued together, so that the grain will run parallel to the spar and the leading edge, with grain running toward the splices from all sides.

I sorted out the sheets available in the kit -- the two that look most like A grain are my 'middle' sheet, while the ones that look like 'C' grain (actually, they look a bit mixed) are going on the outside.

Glue is Ambroid, mixed 50-50 with acetone (I hang out with an indoor free flight guy, who has poisoned my brain).  This allows me to make a nice joint with minimal actual glue left after all the solvent evaporates.  Ambroid was chosen because it's light, plenty strong gluing balsa to balsa, it gives me some working time, and it's not soluble in water.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 09:21:29 PM »
There was foam all the way around the templates, but it did end up dished in the leading edge -- you can see in the picture that we were going much too fast at the end as we went off the edge there.  So next time we'll have to go slower (or get a different power supply for the foam cutter).

I just corrected the dishing with a sanding board, making sure that I'm maintaining the right rib contour.  I had to take about 1/16" of length off of each end.  It's probably not right, but I suspect it's still better than I could do without the molded leading edge.

Tim,
The reason for increasing the foam around the front is to keep the mass of foam there about the same as on the sides of the template so the wire and foam temperature remains about the same throughout the cut.  As the foam gets thinner (less mass) around the front the wire getts hotter and the foam cuts differently.  The wire cuts a broader swath which is often the cause of the dishing.   Try to keep the foam mass about the same throughout the cut because trying to vary the speed of the cut never works very well.

You also need to maintain a lot of spring tension on the wire as it stretches as it heats (I know you know that as an engineer) but it often has more effect than one thinks on the wire tension...very tight wire means cleaner cut!

Randy Cuberly

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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 09:51:56 PM »
I'm totally flying blind here, so much of what I'm doing is b'guess and b'gosh.  It all makes sense to me though.  Don't go copying this method until you see that I've finished things and gotten good results!

I couldn't see trying to join the leading edge sheet after I formed it, so I made a wide sheet from two pieces.  I was also concerned about putting the join between two sheets right at the LE -- so I didn't.  The picture shows a central sheet, with the other sheet split in half and glued on to the outside.  Everything is tapered to match the taper on the actual LE sheet, except that I took half an inch off of each side of the wide sheet, then half an inch off of each of the split-off pieces.  The tapered pieces are glued together, so that the grain will run parallel to the spar and the leading edge, with grain running toward the splices from all sides.

I sorted out the sheets available in the kit -- the two that look most like A grain are my 'middle' sheet, while the ones that look like 'C' grain (actually, they look a bit mixed) are going on the outside.

Glue is Ambroid, mixed 50-50 with acetone (I hang out with an indoor free flight guy, who has poisoned my brain).  This allows me to make a nice joint with minimal actual glue left after all the solvent evaporates.  Ambroid was chosen because it's light, plenty strong gluing balsa to balsa, it gives me some working time, and it's not soluble in water.

You're absolutely correct in joining the three parts of the LE sheet before forming it.  The center sheet is the one obviously that wraps around the front of the LE so there' not undue stress on the glue joint.

I can't tell from the picture how you are forming it but the idea is to make the form significantly wider (front to back) than the sheet (at least about a quarter inch)...and the width of the formed sheet should be a little wider than what you want for the
actual leading edge sheeting and then trimmed nice and straight after forming.  Mark the dimensions you want on the edge of the sheet after forming and while still around the form.

Of course you know to soak the balsa in warm water for about 5 minutes then wipe it dry and carefully wrap it around the form then wrap it fairly tightly with and ACE bandage being very careful to keep the whole thing in place and STRAIGHT...Did I mention be careful and keep it STRAIGHT!!!

I apologize if I'm being too elementary here and you already know all this "crap", but it's very important that you do it this way if you want it to work and not twist your wing when you install it.

I assume you know how to install it and glue it with a long nozzle and CA while the whole thing is stable.

Randy Cuberly


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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 09:58:27 PM »
You're absolutely correct in joining the three parts of the LE sheet before forming it.  The center sheet is the one obviously that wraps around the front of the LE so there' not undue stress on the glue joint.

Good, I guessed right then!

I can't tell from the picture how you are forming it but the idea is to make the form significantly wider (front to back) than the sheet (at least about a quarter inch)...and the width of the formed sheet should be a little wider than what you want for the
actual leading edge sheeting and then trimmed nice and straight after forming.  Mark the dimensions you want on the edge of the sheet after forming and while still around the form.

Of course you know to soak the balsa in warm water for about 5 minutes then wipe it dry and carefully wrap it around the form then wrap it fairly tightly with and ACE bandage being very careful to keep the whole thing in place and STRAIGHT...Did I mention be careful and keep it STRAIGHT!!!

That pretty much sums up what I'm doing, although without your warning I may have had more errors in the "keeping it straight" department.

I apologize if I'm being too elementary here and you already know all this "crap", but it's very important that you do it this way if you want it to work and not twist your wing when you install it.

I assume you know how to install it and glue it with a long nozzle and CA while the whole thing is stable.

Don't worry about being too elementary -- as I said, I'm flying blind here, figuring it out as I go.  One of the reasons I like posting build threads is that sometimes I'm joyfully driving straight toward a cliff, and someone points out my error before I go over.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 10:07:20 PM »
Tim,
I would further reccommend that you get one of Bob Hunts instruction sheets that He publishes with his Lost Foam Jigs, even though you're not using a lost foam jig there is a lot of information in there about installing the formed sheeting and forming the sheeting.  Good as Gold info!

Sounds like you're doing things right.

Incidentally you should consider building your next one with a lost foam jig from Bob...you'll never look back if you do!

Randy Cuberly

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2015, 10:48:02 PM »
Incidentally you should consider building your next one with a lost foam jig from Bob...you'll never look back if you do!

Actually, for my next build I'm planning on getting a set of cores from Bob and building a foam wing.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2015, 02:47:31 AM »
Randy has good advice.  Have you seen Bob's video (or instructions elsewhere) about sanding the edges of the sheets before sticking them together?  One problem I had with edge-glued sheets is that they'd form a ridge that got worse with sanding.  I think it's because I squeezed the sheets together too hard.  I think it works better if you squeeze them with very little force.  Next time I do it I may ask Robby for instruction. 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2015, 09:17:00 AM »
I always edge-sand sheets before splicing like that.  There's no way you can strip them evenly enough with a knife and a straight edge.

For that matter, if you're going to strip off a significant amount from a sheet you should plan on taking a bit more off to straighten things up -- when I whacked the one sheet down the middle, the two 2" wide pieces were bowed by about 1/20".
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2015, 10:40:10 AM »
I always edge-sand sheets before splicing like that.  There's no way you can strip them evenly enough with a knife and a straight edge.

For that matter, if you're going to strip off a significant amount from a sheet you should plan on taking a bit more off to straighten things up -- when I whacked the one sheet down the middle, the two 2" wide pieces were bowed by about 1/20".

Yeah, quarter grain wood seems to be the worst for that.  It keeps stress relieving itself for a long time.  I always try to use only straight grain consistant wood for spliced sheeting.  Much easier to work with.  Like the old cowboy said..."Makes for a much more harmonious outcome".

 LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2015, 08:29:45 PM »
Stuff soaking.  I didn't have a tub that long that wasn't a bathtub (and in the wrong building), so I made a frame from furring strips and draped it with plastic.  I haven't figured out how to drain it yet without leaving my shop awash -- one thing at a time here.  As soon as I get done typing, I'll go see if the wood is flexible enough to wrap around the form.

The water is just hot (well, "really warm") from the tap: hopefully that'll be enough.  If you hear swearing from the West in a few minutes, that'll be me, finding out that I didn't soak/heat/whatever enough.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2015, 08:47:36 PM »
Oooh, that went well.  It's definitely easier to do this part than to make the buck.  The picture is the whole mess wrapped in some Vet Wrap that I filched from my wife's horsey first aid kit.  Now comes the hard part, and the harder part: figuring how to get the water out of my clever ad-hoc tub, and then waiting until this time tomorrow to see what I have.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2015, 10:32:01 PM »
I always edge-sand sheets before splicing like that.  There's no way you can strip them evenly enough with a knife and a straight edge.

For that matter, if you're going to strip off a significant amount from a sheet you should plan on taking a bit more off to straighten things up -- when I whacked the one sheet down the middle, the two 2" wide pieces were bowed by about 1/20".
Heres a good tool (jig) for sanding sheeting edges.  While back I had made this "gluing trough" (for lack of a better name) to glue up the 3-piece laminated LE's & TE's for Lincoln Log wings.  See pics 1 & 2.  Its just a shallow channel made from Melamine shelf material,48" long and about 11" wide with the 2 sides an inch high.  In use I would make up 2 sets of the LE or TE and put one set up against either side.  Then cut a long (24~30") filler piece from 1/4" Masonite material to go between the laminations with a 1/4" or so gap.  Then to provide the clamping action, the filler piece is ripped on a long taper to create two opposing wedges, with there outer edges parrallel. (May still have pictures of that if someone is not clear and needs to see it)

Anway, back to the edge sanding. On a later project with foam wings, I needed to prep the  edges of lots of sheeting for wing skins when I came up with this minor mod to the gluing trough allowing it to be used in conjunction with the Great Planes sanding bars.  The rest of the pictures pretty much tell the story.  The 2 sides of the trough had only been screwed (no glue) to the bed, so it was easy to take apart and run it thru the table saw.   I just cut a kerf about 1/4" deep the right distance from each side so the sanding bars would sit in the kerf perpendicular to the bed.  I use the 2 carpenter squares as a base so the "sanding jig" is at a 45 like a drafting board which makes gravity your friend.  The Melamine surface is slick which makes it easy to slide your balsa sheet back and forth.  I put one sanding bar (100~120grit) in the  groove and resting against the side of trough. The bar has a hole drilled in the middle and I pin it to the bed with 1/4" bolt to fix it from sliding side to side.  I place balsa sheet next to the bar, with the jig's bed tilted at 45 gravity keeps it there.  I put a second sanding bar (80grit gives good bite) on top of the sheet I am sanding and use the bar as a long handle to slide the  workpiece back an forth.  The long handle applys even down pressure along the full length of the sheet and this is what produces perfectly straight edges.  I have experimented with just using a hand on either end and the result is not as good as with the bar. You do not have to apply any force to the sheet against the sanding bar, just the weight of the sheet and the 2nd bar on top of it is all it takes.  And with the slick Melamine surface it takes minimal effort to slide workpiece back and forth.  It only takes 7 or 8 strokes on the 120grit bar, then swap out with a 220grit bar for another 4~5 and the edge is perfect.  I get invisible glue joints, on both sides of the skins..  I use Titebond or Elmer's carpenter glue, and the masking tape & tent hinge method.  The trick there is laying in just the perfect bead of glue, so you get minimal glue squeeze and one quick swipe with damp rag takes care of it.  The perfect bead of glue, took a while but I finally figured that out too.

Couple more notes:
1> Some of the sanding bars shown are 44" long.  Pretty sure those are no longer available but you can still get the 33" bars which should work fine.  Nice to have three but you can get by with just two.
2> In pics 1 & 2 you will see a saw kerf in middle of the trough, disregard that relative to this post.   It was part of another tool I was working on and will post about that later when completed.  Thread title will be "Ultimate Modeling Table Saw"    
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 10:53:08 PM by Allan Perret »
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2015, 11:59:46 PM »
Oooh, that went well.  It's definitely easier to do this part than to make the buck.  The picture is the whole mess wrapped in some Vet Wrap that I filched from my wife's horsey first aid kit.  Now comes the hard part, and the harder part: figuring how to get the water out of my clever ad-hoc tub, and then waiting until this time tomorrow to see what I have.

Tim,
You mentioned waiting until this time tomorrow.  Be very careful about unwrapping it too soon.  Typically I wait a couple of days to insure that it's very dry.  I use Ace bandages and they may be a bit denser than the horsey wraps.
If you unwrap it too soon you will get warps as it finishes drying...Did I mention VERY DRY before unwrapping!!!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2015, 10:18:34 AM »
Surprised no one has mentioned the use of strips of old linen sheets to wrap the form with.  It will not leave marks like the Ace bandage wrap.   But then again it is not Eleatic either.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2015, 07:37:14 PM »
Well, I unwrapped the first one today, and got the second one on the buck.  Everything looks good on LE #1 -- I often screw up the second time that I try something new: I have my fingers crossed that it won't happen this time.

Tim,
You mentioned waiting until this time tomorrow.  Be very careful about unwrapping it too soon.  Typically I wait a couple of days to insure that it's very dry.  I use Ace bandages and they may be a bit denser than the horsey wraps.
If you unwrap it too soon you will get warps as it finishes drying...Did I mention VERY DRY before unwrapping!!!

I waited until today (two days instead of the one that I originally planned).  The wood seems to be as dry as a bone.  Moreover, I stuck it on one of the part-built wing panels that I'm throwing out with the shucks taped over it, as a keeper.  So hopefully I'm safe.

Surprised no one has mentioned the use of strips of old linen sheets to wrap the form with.  It will not leave marks like the Ace bandage wrap.   But then again it is not Eleatic either.

I had forgotten the warning about wrapping too tightly, and I know that I was not paying attention to it on the first one.  So I was quite happy to see my very first molded wood attempt come out looking good.
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Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2015, 04:31:39 AM »
I have 3 fluorescent light fixtures in my basement and they have a plastic cover that goes over the entire fixture. They are 3 inches deep and 4 feet long. I took the best one and filled the two bolt holes with Goop and use that to soak balsa. I've found that room temperature water does the same as warmer water and I soak the wood for an hour or two then wrap it up.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2015, 07:46:36 AM »
When I did the lost foam wing for the Latency I built a box using a shelf board for the bottom and some plywood I had laying around for 6 inch tall sides. Lined it with a large leaf trash bag, filled it with water and dropped the balsa in. Room temperature tap water works fine, not sure ho long I let it soak, kept testing to see if seemed flexible enough to form.

All I had was an old sheet, tore 1 to 2 inch strips and used that to wrap the wood on the form. Left it overnight and the next day it was ready to install. I had both forms and did both wing halves in one shot.

Just received a Hunt foam wing for the next one, going to be interesting to see what the difference in weight and performance might be between a foam wing and the existing lost foam wing.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2015, 01:15:58 PM »
I don't know if this counts as "nice step-by-step" or "excruciating level of detail".

Gluing on the LG reinforcing ribs.  The Legacy makes a strong LG mount in the wing by doubling up three of the wing ribs with 1/16" plywood. Since I got a wing kit and not just a rib set, I got four of the six doublers -- the other two are part of the fuselage doublers and weren't included (I asked them for something weird and they did their best).  So the W6 doublers were made by tracing the W6 ribs and hand-cutting.

I don't know if anyone else does this, but for birch plywood up to 1/16", and for poplar plywood ("lite-ply") up to 1/8", I use a utility knife to cut stuff out.  You get much better control than with a coping saw, and you only rarely break the blade.  You have to be willing to change blades fairly often -- that utility knife that you used 20 years ago to put down linoleum in the kitchen, and haven't changed blades since, will probably not do the job.

The black rods running through the picture are 8mm by 60 inch CF rods from a kite shop that I bought to use as my wing jig.  I anticipate them doing an excellent job, unless I accidentally glue them into the ribs.

The circuit board in the background, to the right of the calculator, is a prototype TUT that I'm using for test fitting, to see where I want to install it in the airplane (I'm thinking I'll put it underneath the fuel tank and extend the cowl.  If I were to run a piped engine I'd make sure there was insulation between it and the pipe).  I don't know if my TUT foolishness will extend beyond recording flights, but if it does I know where TUT, battery, sensor and servos all need to go.
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2015, 09:17:57 PM »
Just curious about the CF kite rods.  What was cost and did you get them locally or order online ?
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2015, 09:25:56 PM »
Just curious about the CF kite rods.  What was cost and did you get them locally or order online ?

I ordered two 60" rods and two 30" rods, and paid around $30.  I got them online from some place with "wind" in the name (now, isn't that helpful!).

Edit: https://goodwinds.com/
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 10:19:35 PM by Tim Wescott »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2015, 10:24:23 PM »
Oop.  Eep.  Grrr.  Hfff hfff hfff.

I just spent twenty minutes of my life, which I will never have access to again, widening the spar notches in these laser cut ribs because they're not quite straight when you put the ribs on a set of jig rods.  Out of the 14 ribs on that side, ten of them now have the notches wallered* out; of those perhaps two were unnecessary.

Oh come on!  Laser cutting is supposed to be magic!  You're supposed to put everything into a bag, give it a good shake, and have a finished airplane fall out, ready to have CA glue run along the joints!

The picture shows the wing with my 1/4" thick straightedge that now slips into the notches.  Honestly.  I've built die-cut wings that fit better than this.

---

* "Wallered" is a highly technical term which, if my investigations are correct, you'll only understand if you're from the deep South, within shouting distance of the Mississippi, or have friends from that part of Oregon that was settled by disgruntled Confederate veterans in the late 19th century.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2015, 11:21:17 PM »
I recovered from my hissy fit and glued the spar in.  28 little brass weights (well, most are brass -- I ran out and had to use aluminum in places) hold the ribs vertical, while my trusty straight edge ("borrowed" from my wife's stained glass workshop -- stolen tools work best) hold the spar down.

The rib notches are all a bit shallow, but they appear to be evenly shallow, and there's just enough spar sticking proud of the ribs to sand off nicely.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2015, 12:27:51 AM »
I just spent twenty minutes of my life, which I will never have access to again, widening the spar notches in these laser cut ribs because they're not quite straight when you put the ribs on a set of jig rods.

One can make an inaccurate CAD drawing really rapidly.  This can then be used to make precisely inaccurate laser-cut parts. 

 
* "Wallered" is a highly technical term which, if my investigations are correct, you'll only understand if you're from the deep South, within shouting distance of the Mississippi, or have friends from that part of Oregon that was settled by disgruntled Confederate veterans in the late 19th century.

The verb to waller among my ethnic Hoosier ancestors refers to something that domestic swine, Sus scrofa domesticus or Sus domesticus, do.  The noun form, waller, is where they do it.

Hope this helps.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2015, 12:34:31 AM »
One can make an inaccurate CAD drawing really rapidly.  This can then be used to make precisely inaccurate laser-cut parts. 

I'm just disappointed to find it in a Brodak kit.
 
The verb to waller among my ethnic Hoosier ancestors refers to something that domestic swine, Sus scrofa domesticus or Sus domesticus, do.  The noun form, waller, is where they do it.

It's also a mechanic's term: to waller out a hole is to make it larger in an uncontrolled, sloppy manner.
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2015, 10:22:11 AM »
Well, since I'm the one who drew the plans, and it wasn't done quickly, I'll add my comments.

The Legacy was designed about 15 years ago,  and was first offered with die cut parts. At least several hundred kits were produced, with many being built. I personally built, an still have, one from the early production runs.

I recall no such issues as reported. I'm left wondering if it's only the laser cut kits. I 'm not sure who set up the laser files. I'm sure the files used were the originals. I look at the original files on my computer, and they don't seem to show the issue.

I have not heard of this problem from any of the hundreds of people who have built the Legacy over the past 15 years. I'm not saying that the experiences reported in this post aren't true, just that this is, after all the kits that have been built, the first I've heard of it.

I can say that after the build is completed, you'll have a great flying design, if the one I built, is any indicator.

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2015, 02:08:56 PM »
I have not heard of this problem from any of the hundreds of people who have built the Legacy over the past 15 years. I'm not saying that the experiences reported in this post aren't true, just that this is, after all the kits that have been built, the first I've heard of it.

I'm wondering if they've recently made changes in the cut files or something.  It's enough of an issue that I would have expected to have heard about it if it's been ongoing.

If I can get the lighting right I'll take a picture: I tried this morning and the problem didn't show up at all.  It's one of those things that is obvious to the eyeball, but a camera just can't seem to pick it up.
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2015, 03:04:44 PM »
OK, you should be able to trust the accuracy of laser cut parts.  But I always check the rib set before I start the actual building.  Its easy to do by stacking the whole set in proper sequence on a couple of short rods, with them all butted together.  Its easy to see what needs to be worked on to get a straight set of notches for the spar and LE.  Its also a lot easier to dress up the notches while they are stacked together.  I will either use the next size smaller square key stock (metal, 12" lengths from hdwe store)  with PSA sandpaper or make a custom sanding stick from spruce or bass or hardwood.  You are probably going to have even more fun with the LE notches. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2015, 03:36:22 PM »
Allan, the spars sweep back from the center, so it would be hard to use a key as you describe.  If I were stack-cutting ribs I'd probably cut a narrow notch such that when it was squared up it was in the right place -- but it's too late for that.

The leading edge notches seem to have the same problem as the spar notches, while the trailing edge appears to be mostly straight, for whatever reason.

Correction: the leading edge notches aren't nearly as bad as the spar notches, and may be entirely OK.  There's one or two that don't fit, but it may just be a blob of glue from laminating the plywood landing gear braces to the ribs.

I figured out how to take a good picture of this, which was a challenge in itself. Here's the result.  I dug a piece of 3/16 x 1/4 out of my stuck, and put a piece of black construction paper behind each notch to enhance contrast (otherwise you'd just look through a notch and see wood on the other side).  As you can see, there's definitely alignment issues.

I'm going to share the picture with Brodak: I expect they'll want to know what's going on.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 04:21:04 PM by Tim Wescott »
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2015, 04:59:34 PM »
Tim,
I've seen similar problems with lazer cut kits from another manufacturer in the past.  The ribs can be checked by stacking them with the trailing edges all aligned.  the center of the spar notches should all line up when that is done.  If not the ones that don't line up are the culprits.  I usually do this by stacking them and pinning them together with T-pins then laying a straight edge on the spar notches.  the ones that are off are obvious and can be corrected at this time with a razor saw.
I realize, of course, that you're beyond that stage now but this is just intended as info for a future build.
I suspect that numerical transformations happen sometimes in the cut files and if no one test builds a kit they go unnoticed until some body like you complains...good for you.  I've always just invented some new words for the engish language and moved on...better to let the makers of the kit aware.
Don't forget to shim those empty spaces between the ribs and the spars, or a weaker wing will result in torsion...as I'm sure you know!  Don't force anything however or warps will result when it comes off the jig.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2015, 05:13:21 PM »
...better to let the makers of the kit aware.

This is my first build of a Brodak product, but with their reputation I figured I'd be doing them a disservice to keep my mouth shut -- even without the fact that I'm flapping it here.

I hear you on checking.  It just didn't occur to me, because laser cut kit are just perfect, right?

It would be interesting to know if the problem is in the cut file or the CAD file -- this is the sort of thing that might happen if someone rearranged the ribs for the cut files for some reason or another and didn't pick them up correctly for the move.

Ah well, I'm just going to move on and build the wing.  And maybe check the fuselage pieces for fit as early in the process as possible...
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2015, 11:17:19 PM »
With practice, I got it down to four or five ribs whose notches needed shaving.  I think the spars are a bit bowed, but as long as I'm not hammering them into place, I'm happy.

Bottom spars installed, the top halves of the gravetonic clamps are in place, and the glue is drying for the evening.

I think I can get away with deepening just two or three LE notches, and sanding the corresponding ribs so they don't stand proud of their neighbors.  If there are any ribs that just don't reach the sheeting I'll either glue some 1/32" balsa on and sand it down, or I'll glue extenders on the sides of the ribs.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2015, 08:42:44 PM »
Definitely not much progress in the last couple of days -- but I have gotten lots of paying work done, which has to count for something.

LG blocks in place.

This has two deviations from the instructions, one of which is my fault, both of which can be seen in the photo.

The one that's my fault is that I put the rib in with the plywood reinforcing pointing the wrong way.  I very carefully made all the reinforced ribs mirror images of each other, then went and put the most important ones in backwards.  Stay tuned -- perhaps the leadouts will come out of the center of the rudder.

The one that's sorta not my fault is that the jig rods interfere with the location of the LG block.  The directions want you to glue up the blocks, then drill, then install in the wing.  This cannot be done if you're building with a jig.  I don't see this as an issue -- I'll just drill these after the fact, probably by making a cradle for my drill press table.
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2015, 02:59:13 PM »
Brodak sells wing rib kits for all their models, and I've used many sets on my own-design models instead of cutting my own.

I have never had a problem with either the wood or the laser cutting.

Also, I built a Brodak Legacy a long time ago, and I don't remember any trouble with the parts.

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2015, 03:33:12 PM »
Floyd, I was pretty astonished.  Frankly, the reason I went to the trouble of taking the picture was because I didn't think it was fair to ask people to believe me without some sort of at least semi-independent evidence.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2015, 11:10:49 PM »
I ended up not deepening any LE notches.  I did two things, the first probably smarter than the second.  The first side I just let the LE be straight, and then I came back later and put in shims where it didn't quite reach the notches.  Three or four ribs were affected.  On the second, I forced the LE a bit.  This put a 1/16" deep wow in the LE, which I then went back and shimmed up with a balsa strip, sanded down flat.  It'll leave some stresses (hence, not so good), but I think that once the LE sheet is on it won't mess the wing up.

To bring the ribs out to the sheeting, I'm going to shim it.  I can't quite bend 1/16" balsa along the grain to match the rib, so I soaked some balsa and bent it on "Bertha", my antique soldering iron that I inherited from a radio-amateur uncle.  The pictures are of the bent wood being held up against ribs to dry, and Bertha.

Balsa wood is astonishingly easy to bend if you use a bit of heat.  I use the shank of Bertha (not the tip!) which is probably a bit hot.  Get the wood wet -- it doesn't have to soak for long -- then tug on the ends while pulling it down over the iron.  It'll buckle if you don't keep some tension on it and give it time (I think that's because the wood in contact with the iron gets hot and pliable first; keeping a pull on it makes the bend want to happen by stretching the outside fibers, and waiting gives the outside a chance to get hot).  I've never tried wood thicker than 1/16", but it's great for Bostonian-sized airplanes.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2015, 07:48:42 PM »
I just spent my last four building sessions custom-bending some wood so that I could glue shims onto the tops of about a dozen wing ribs, then slicing and gluing said shims, so that I could then sand most of the shim away, all so that, in the end, I could get a fit between the ribs and the leading edge sheeting that pleased me.

And, to top it all off, I was making sly innuendos about Howard Rush's sanity earlier today.

I don't think I should be allowed to build kits anymore.  I think my relatives need to be trained and supplied, and whenever I start making "I'm going to build a kit" noises, they should grab a box of contest balsa, open it, and say "here Tim, sniff this".
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Offline proparc

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2015, 08:52:49 AM »
Tim is a fellow stunt flyer and if he say's he had a bad kit - he had a bad kit and that's all their is to it!!

ALL manufacturers occasionally make lemons. If you make thousands of ANYTHING-sooner or later you will make a turkey. Nikon is having one of the roughest periods of quality control I have seen. I just got another recall notice on My Toyota truck-this time for the driver side airbags,(last time it was the front ball joints).

Hey, his kit sucked- he worked it out,(because he's experienced) and he's back on it. Way to go Tim. y1
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2015, 09:36:34 PM »
I've spent the last week balanced between being sick (nasty cold, nothing worse), using my airplane-related time for TUT building, and dithering over doing the next step with molded leading edges (since I've never done this before!)

So I finally got around to marking and trimming my leading edge sheet, figuring out how to clamp it (which may or may not be the best way -- more on that later), then actually gluing it and clamping it.

I decided I'd use rubber-band clamps.  To keep the bands from digging into the sheet, I used bits of 1/64" plywood wrapped around the LE.

The clamps are rubber bands tied to bits of balsa (spare spar sections), then pulled around the LE and hooked over the stick on the top.  This works best if you have something to reach in and grab the rubber band -- which, since I like using rubber bands for clamps, I have.

When I cut the foam buck for the LE I rushed things going around the LE curve.  As a result, my buck had a sag in the middle of it.  I mostly dealt with this by sanding the ends, but there was still enough built into my leading edges that when the ends are held tight against the ribs & spar, there's a gap.  To deal with this, I used tape between every rib bay where I didn't have a rubber-band clamp.  That holds the LE sheeting nicely against the spar.

In retrospect, I may have been able to use tape for the whole thing -- I don't think I would have a better clamping job, but I might have saved some time.

Now it's sitting out in my shop, well weighted down, verified straight, and with the glue drying.  Tomorrow I'll have something much more like a wing than I do today.

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2015, 08:55:03 AM »
Someone pointed out via PM that I should have put the trailing edges on (thanks!).  Yes, I should have -- I got so anxious about this step, that I forgot some intervening ones.  So, I guess the next thing to do is put on the trailing edges, correct any problems on the inboard wing from having the LE put on first, and then go back to installing the leading edge on the outboard wing.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 12:16:45 PM by Tim Wescott »
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2015, 11:28:49 AM »
Hey Tim, I'm building an RSM kit (sorta) and it also has it's issues. I'm having fun, though.
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