Legacy Build

[Tim Wescott]

Electronics tray getting glued in.  Hopefully I can screw the stuff onto it when it's in there firmly.  I'll find out!

[Howard Rush]

You have less than two weeks until the Stuntathon. 

[Tim Wescott]

You have less than two weeks until the Stuntathon.

I'd have to hurry, and use Monocoat.

I'll practice flying the FrankenFlyer, instead.

[Tim Wescott]

Like my elevator post, that stab is REAL heavy. Toss it also. Both my new stabs weighed 38 grams. Way less than 2 ounces. I have no doubt you could do this as well.

Second try -- after forgetting Paul's advise above.  Basically I sanded down the kit stab and sheeted it.

On the Very Marginally Plus side, I figured out how to do this without adding too much weight -- mostly by dint of leaving balsa out.  I think I just had to fail before I could succeed here.

[Tim Wescott]

I doubt that I removed more than 1/4 ounce of material (those are 1/4" diameter holes, through the 1/2" thickness of the motor mounts).  And nothing will show once the airplane is buttoned up.

But damn it looks nice right now!  And maybe someone will peer into my plane when I'm loading in batteries and be so unnerved by all the holes that they'll fly less good, letting me place better!

[Tim Wescott]

Aside from that -- I hadn't realized just how far along I was, because I'm used to profiles, and RC planes.  I'm going to get the wing covered & with a few coats of dope on it, then start doing fuselage assembly.

So -- paint, sand, paint, sand.  It'll be boring as @$%^, until I get the wings in and start making the fuselage the correct shape.

[Ken Culbertson]

So -- paint, sand, paint, sand.  It'll be boring as @$%^, until I get the wings in and start making the fuselage the correct shape.

Nice fuselage.  I love the holes. 

  I don't bother with the beams anymore.  I use an Okie printed mount screwed to the plywood doublers.  That is it. And then it sits waiting for a wing. I don't think I fully realized how much you can really do on a fuselage while you wait for the wing. So I got bored and add the Canard.  Better get the wing soon!  I have already added full bottom hatches past the wing, a top air scope, an adjustable logarythmic flap horn with independently adjustable flaps. an adjustable mounting pad for the timer accelerometer and a cam rudder mechanism.  This plane is either going to be unstoppable or the biggest waste of time since the T-Square I built as a kid. (should I admit to having built a T-Square?)

Ken

[Tim Wescott]

I don't bother with the beams anymore.

When I started this build it was going to get a 46LA or a 51AX.  Then I was too lazy to rip the beams out.

Much lightness could have been included if I had started with electric propulsion in mind.

[Tim Wescott]

Progress is happening in bits and spurts.  I'm prepping all the little bits for covering (I'm going to cover the wings & stab, get a few coats of dope on, then assemble to the fuse.  May not be the smartest way, but it's how I'm going to do it).

In the mean time, this is progress.  Really.  Honest.  It'll show from the outside; I'm anticipating that it'll polish up real pretty.

[Tim Wescott]

Small-in-size, large-in-work.  I didn't want to lose appearance points on some hokey-looking hatch latch.  This is big (3/4" in diameter), but it's going to be shiny.

The inner part is a handle that rotates, it'll get a boring old tongue on the inside that'll catch the lip of the hatch opening.  It all bolts together with lots of scary-to-machine blind 2-56 holes.  Unfortunately, the ones holding it on are only 3 threads deep, which is bad, but there's three of them which is laughably over strength.

Huh -- I just thought of it as I wrote.  I can cut off some screws and glue them in as studs, instead.  Three threads should be sufficient until they wear out -- and glued-in studs won't wear the threads.  So...

Hand machined from solid billet, just the way the cool kids built their street rods 30 years ago -- it should take a shine, and be convenient, too.

[Tim Wescott]

It worked out to three screws in an irregular pattern, so the latch could actually turn.  If there's a next time, it'll be a nicer pattern -- but this works.  I'll buff the @#$% out of it when the plane is finished, to draw the judges attention away from the giant hatch cover it's latching.

[Tim Wescott]

Battery holddown.  Wrong size -- fortunately the 3D model was parameterized nicely.

[Tim Wescott]

Version 1 (with the balsa spreader) and version 2 battery hold downs, pretending to hold down the battery.  They don't provide enough clearance for foam or velcro to _really_ hold the battery in place -- so version 3 has been sent to my helpful coworker who can run the 3D printer, and with luck there won't be a version 4.

If I can get the wiring finalized and have everything still fit, then it'll be ready for final assembly and I can start finishing.

[Tim Wescott]

With the batteries done, I'm getting the inside of the airscoop "finished".  Now that it's black, I'll spray it with a coat of flattener and call it good.  It's not perfect, but hopefully it'll be dark enough in there that no one will be distracted from the pristine beauty that will be the outside of the aircraft (really!  That's how it's gonna be!)  Once it's flat black, or as flat a black as a lick and a promise will get it, I can glue that baffle into the scoop and start fuselage assembly.

[kevin king]

Small-in-size, large-in-work.  I didn't want to lose appearance points on some hokey-looking hatch latch.  This is big (3/4" in diameter), but it's going to be shiny

I certainly hope it will be shiny. I would hate to see someone report this thread to the moderator just because its not shiny!
    Just kidding Tim.

[Ken Culbertson]

Tim, I really like your hatch latch.  I am using one with a bar you pull back.  Looks hokey but it works.  Yours looks better and is probably lighter.  Still looking for some "pig lipstick" that doesn't smell bad to make mine all shiny.   

Ken

[Tim Wescott]

Kevin: Yes, it'll be polished and waxed.  It's not so much made to disassemble easily as it happens to disassemble easily, so it should be easy to polish with power tools once a year or whatever.

Ken: That was my second attempt.  I wanted something that looked like you might see it on a full-scale airplane.  I really wanted do do a miniature version of a flush mount paddle latch like these -- I figured that one about 1/2" high would look about right and be grabbable with a fingernail.  But it has all sorts of little fiddly bits that are just fine when the thing is four inches tall, but way too little to hand-make when the thing is half an inch tall.

It's quite oversized for the "scale" of the airplane, but it should be durable, and it'll shine up.

[Chuck Matheny]

Nice fuselage.  I love the holes. 

  I don't bother with the beams anymore.  I use an Okie printed mount screwed to the plywood doublers.  That is it. And then it sits waiting for a wing. I don't think I fully realized how much you can really do on a fuselage while you wait for the wing. So I got bored and add the Canard.  Better get the wing soon!  I have already added full bottom hatches past the wing, a top air scope, an adjustable logarythmic flap horn with independently adjustable flaps. an adjustable mounting pad for the timer accelerometer and a cam rudder mechanism.  This plane is either going to be unstoppable or the biggest waste of time since the T-Square I built as a kid. (should I admit to having built a T-Square?)

Ken

That's impressive..!
I'd be tempted to contact cement the plastic to the wood....but I suppose that would make last minute adjustment and alignment impossible.

[Chuck Matheny]

It worked out to three screws in an irregular pattern, so the latch could actually turn.  If there's a next time, it'll be a nicer pattern -- but this works.  I'll buff the @#$% out of it when the plane is finished, to draw the judges attention away from the giant hatch cover it's latching.

Very crafty latch Tim...!
Is your other hobby  gunsmithing...?

[Tim Wescott]

Very crafty latch Tim...!
Is your other hobby  gunsmithing...?

"How do I make a curved hole in a block of metal?"

"Give it to an apprentice and tell them to drill a straight hole!"

Nope, not good enough for gunsmithing (at least, if I tried I'd be purveying special rifle barrels where the bullet comes out the side).  But I do enjoy making bits and bobs on the lathe, and I'm gradually getting better at it.  By the time I'm too old to fly, I may have even made an engine that gets broken in before it's worn out.

[Chuck Matheny]

"How do I make a curved hole in a block of metal?"

"Give it to an apprentice and tell them to drill a straight hole!"

Nope, not good enough for gunsmithing (at least, if I tried I'd be purveying special rifle barrels where the bullet comes out the side).  But I do enjoy making bits and bobs on the lathe, and I'm gradually getting better at it.  By the time I'm too old to fly, I may have even made an engine that gets broken in before it's worn out.

Tim..I've considered donating time at an armory as a Janitor / Observer just to get some exposure to that level of work.....but then I'll drink  a beer, then take a nap until those thoughts have drifted away by a safe distance .

So far I've used my $999 Harbor Freight Lathe to shave some material off the inside of a couple Cox .049 piston skirts, made a few venturis...made an iron piston for a ST .15.
Couldn't live without it...!!

[Tim Wescott]

Starting to cover.  My plan is to get the wing ready to squirt with silver, then mount it into the unfinished fuselage (the kit directions have you assembling the thing before you hook up the controls and complete the fuselage).

Which leads to my first experience with carbon fiber veil.

I'm still searching for one word to describe the experience -- sub-traumatic is best, I think.  I kept expecting the whole experience to explode into one of those nightmare covering jobs where you end up with looking at a disaster job that needs to be let dry and sanded off, with bits of tissue or whatever stuck to every bit of your body like some sort of a model aviation tarring and feathering.  I think it may have been full-on traumatic if it weren't for all the stick-and-tissue planes I've made over the years, and various experiences with silkspan and fiberglass to augment that.

But -- it actually came out OK-ish.  The worst part was discovering that I had about half as much carbon veil as I thought, which means that I need to order some more if I want to stick with my original plan and use it on the flaps -- and to have some for the fuselage.  There's one corner of the thing where I left too much veil and it wouldn't lie down -- I'll have to sand that off (and pray it does so nicely) and cover those corners with silkspan.

[Chuck Matheny]

That CFV looks impressive..!
The edges all look real nicely rolled...
but
after reading you comment about a problem in one of the corners it makes me wonder if vacuum bagging has been tried with tissue and dope..?

[Tim Wescott]

after reading you comment about a problem in one of the corners it makes me wonder if vacuum bagging has been tried with tissue and dope..?

First, the problems with the corners would be there under a vacuum bag, too -- I was just asking the veil to go around more of a compound curvature than it can go.

Second, dope dries so quickly I don't think you'd have time to get it into the bag before it dried out -- which would defeat the whole purpose.

Third, I'm sure this is a solved problem somewhere, but vacuum bagging anything that depends on evaporation is going to be -- interesting.  Because you need to make sure that evaporation will happen, which means that at minimum you need a path from every bit of the thing you're molding to the outlet for your evaporate (i.e., the solvent from your dope, glue or whatever, or water from a molded balsa piece) to escape.  You probably also need to either have dry air flow, or you need to bring the temperature up so that the vapor pressure of your evaporate is high enough to drive it out of your material.

[Tim Wescott]

Just a trophy shot of the wing all covered, with various amounts of dope on each bit.  All the flying surfaces except the fin (which doesn't exist yet) are covered and getting dope build-up.

Open bays are covered with polyspan, tips with Doctor Paper (which is turning out well), leading edge with CF (which, uh -- read on).

I think Doctor Paper actually worked better than "real" silkspan for the tips -- it has a bit less wet strength than silkspan, which lets you tug it around compound corners to a greater degree than you could do with silkspan.

Using carbon veil on the leading edges instead of doing the whole wing in polyspan definitely has a historically high ratio of "sounded good" to "turned out well".  It's just -- wrinkly.  And the wrinkles aren't rubbing down.  I know there's a bit of compound curvature in those leading edges, and apparently it's too much for the covering.  I tried to alleviate that by covering the second one (the near one in the photo) in sections -- that just made the problem worse.  Lengthwise strips may have worked, but it's too late now!

So I'll be sanding the wrinkles off.  If things look good enough they'll get doped.  If the result is scabrous enough I'll probably sand the whole LE and apply polyspan or doctor paper.  Then I'll publish my shame here so that you can avoid my mistakes, and instead go off and make new, original mistakes of your own!

[Tim Wescott]

Yup.  Scabrous.  Dangit.

Time to tack one more error onto the concatenation of errors...

[Paul Walker]

Where did you get your  CF veil?
What did you use to attach the CF Veil??

[Tim Wescott]

CST Sales, it's their 0.2oz/square yard stuff (which seems to handle a lot like the Deluxe Materials 0.3oz/square yard stuff, for a lot less $$).  I'm applying it with dope.

I'm not familiar with CF much.  If it were fiberglass (of which I have extensive, if decades-old, experience) I'd say it had some sizing in it that's not soluble in dope -- it sure seems to stay stiff even when it's wet.  But -- maybe that's just how CF acts?

[Chuck Matheny]

CST Sales, it's their 0.2oz/square yard stuff (which seems to handle a lot like the Deluxe Materials 0.3oz/square yard stuff, for a lot less $$).  I'm applying it with dope.

I'm not familiar with CF much.  If it were fiberglass (of which I have extensive, if decades-old, experience) I'd say it had some sizing in it that's not soluble in dope -- it sure seems to stay stiff even when it's wet.  But -- maybe that's just how CF acts?

Sorry to hear about your struggles with the CFV Tim.
I have only read about it in the past as the latest and greatest thing but have never tried it.
Those wing tips did turn out great and now I need to find me some of that Doctor Paper..!

[Tim Wescott]

Those wing tips did turn out great and now I need to find me some of that Doctor Paper..!

If you don't have it already just use Silkspan.  Or if you fly rubber power and have some of that cheap "domestic" tissue around use that.  It's not worth getting a roll of it just for the odd super-compound curvature bit.

From Paul's comments I may be misusing the CF veil (and it does work great on utterly flat surfaces).

[Chuck Matheny]

If you don't have it already just use Silkspan.  Or if you fly rubber power and have some of that cheap "domestic" tissue around use that.  It's not worth getting a roll of it just for the odd super-compound curvature bit.

From Paul's comments I may be misusing the CF veil (and it does work great on utterly flat surfaces).

Tim.....If you think the material has "sizing" [or a contamination] that prevents thorough saturation then you could try tacking it to an open frame and washing it with some dope thinner from your spray gun...?

[Tim Wescott]

Tim.....If you think the material has "sizing" [or a contamination] that prevents thorough saturation then you could try tacking it to an open frame and washing it with some dope thinner from your spray gun...?

I was careful in my wording -- it acts like it has a sizing in it.  That doesn't mean it necessarily does.  If I found out for sure one way or another, I would not be surprised -- one way or another.

And if it does have sizing, it's not soluable in thinned dope, so spraying it with straight thinner won't make a difference.

[Gaylord D Elling]

Dude, did you start building this plane in 2015?

[Paul Walker]

Tim,
I use only ACP carbon matt.  I learned this the hard way, just like you have. I cut to shape, lay it down and brush on clear dope thined 50%. It goes through the veil and the sizing nearly instantly, and once through it can go over most any compound curve.
I love it so much I only use it, no tissue here.

[Tim Wescott]

Dude, did you start building this plane in 2015?

Well, yes.  My life has been eventful in a non-modelling way in the interim.  And it does put a double meaning into the word "Legacy".

Tim,
I use only ACP carbon matt.  I learned this the hard way, just like you have...

That's actually good to hear -- especially because what I have is still useful for certain limited things (like dead flat surfaces).  As long as I build enough profiles, I'll use it up.  And goodness knows, I'm a prolific builder!!

[Tim Wescott]

So, after some conversation with folks at the Spring Tune Up, I figured out that random CF veil has sizing that is soluble in epoxy (not surprising) and water (mildly surprising, and very welcome).

So I tried my CST Sales stuff again, treating it like silkspan.  It loosens up just fine and goes on like, well, wet silkspan.  Which is good, because APC Composites doesn't mess around with quantities fit for modelers any more, and I absolutely don't mind using damp CF veil.

Here's a pic.  The lighting is Modeling Noir*.  At any rate -- there's no wrinkles.  Had I gotten this the first time around I'd have been ecstatic.

*  Or I didn't want to mess around arranging stuff for a really good picture and just used my flash.

[Tim Wescott]

Wow.  It's amazing how changing jobs to one where you think that management actually values you can stimulate work on models.

Progress lately has mostly been paint, sand, paint, sand, so not much to take pretty pictures of.

However, I've really been unhappy with my hatch arrangement -- I kept envisioning trying to stand the airplane on my toe while juggling a battery over the hatch.  I recently saw this picture of Dennis Nunes's new Circulas, and decided some surgery was in order.

[Tim Wescott]

Gluing the oh-so-carefully constructed hatch into it's oh-so-carefully constructed hole (sob!)

Hopefully I've locked in the clamping action of my weights.

[Tim Wescott]

So -- work wasted, weight added, the nose will, forever, have a ghost hatch showing.  Oh well -- I'm going to make forward progress, dammit!

[Steve Berry]

So -- work wasted, weight added, the nose will, forever, have a ghost hatch showing.  Oh well -- I'm going to make forward progress, dammit!

Not bad, not bad at all...

A little superfil after covering with silkspan, and that hatch will completely disappear. At that point, it'll only exist n the pictures shown.

Steve

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[Tim Wescott]

Not bad, not bad at all...

A little superfil after covering with silkspan, and that hatch will completely disappear. At that point, it'll only exist n the pictures shown.

Steve

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

I don't have enough experience with wood, but if it were a fiberglass car body it'd only be perfect at the same temperature as when it was finished out.  I'll be sure to check it out the first time I take it out of my cold cold shop and get it to a sunny contest.

[Ken Culbertson]

Not bad, not bad at all...

A little superfil after covering with silkspan, and that hatch will completely disappear. At that point, it'll only exist n the pictures shown.

Steve

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

And if it is still there - panel lines!

Ken

[Dwayne Donnelly]

That doesn't look bad at all, I think you're going to be surprised how well it turns out once covered. 

[Paul Walker]

Your build is making Howard look speedy.......

Yes, superfill in the joint of bare wood and block sand when cured.

[Ken Culbertson]

On my 2020 Endgame that I lost in the fire, I had cut "Nobler" like lightening holes in the back.  Eight of them.  I was convinced by some well wishing flying buddies that the loss of strength was not worth it and I should put them back in.  So I did.  This left me with 32 cracks to fill.  I CA'd all 8 cutouts back then block sanded till it was smooth but with cracks.  SuperFil is not the easiest to use in cracks.  It doesn't want to stick to both sides.  However, I found that it I added a drop or 2 of denatured alcohol it went on pretty much like finishing resin.  I also found that if I heated it some it would stick to both sides of the crack and penetrate the grain of the wood giving me a glass smooth surface to block sand.  Since then I have added just a drop of alcohol when I mix a batch.  It makes it sticky and easier to spread.  Then, when it is about half cured, maybe an hour, I go over places like fillets and shape them.

The only person that will know that a hatch was there will be you....and all of us, but we won't tell!

Ken

[Tim Wescott]

Your build is making Howard look speedy.......

I have to do something positive for the community.

[Steve Helmick]

On my 2020 Endgame that I lost in the fire, I had cut "Nobler" like lightening holes in the back.  Eight of them.  I was convinced by some well wishing flying buddies that the loss of strength was not worth it and I should put them back in.  So I did.  This left me with 32 cracks to fill.  I CA'd all 8 cutouts back then block sanded till it was smooth but with cracks.  SuperFil is not the easiest to use in cracks.  It doesn't want to stick to both sides.  However, I found that it I added a drop or 2 of denatured alcohol it went on pretty much like finishing resin.  I also found that if I heated it some it would stick to both sides of the crack and penetrate the grain of the wood giving me a glass smooth surface to block sand.  Since then I have added just a drop of alcohol when I mix a batch.  It makes it sticky and easier to spread.  Then, when it is about half cured, maybe an hour, I go over places like fillets and shape them.

The only person that will know that a hatch was there will be you....and all of us, but we won't tell!

Ken

Once I asked Paul about his ImpAct plans, as I was confused by all the phantom lines on the fuselage drawing. He said that it showed optional cutouts (like some plans of the Nobler), but that they were not a good idea to actually do.

And, there were other phantom lines that showed the horizontal, cross-grain sheet balsa pieces on top and bottom, which make a total of THREE box/tube sections (counting boxing in the top and bottom molded sheet "blocks") and stiffen the aft fuselage. At least one company kitting the ImpAct didn't catch that, and their kit prototype omitted these pieces. Per the deal, Paul got their first kit and had them correct their oversight.  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

Paint, sand, paint, sand, lay down some trial panel lines where they won't show, paint, sand.

I think I like the old-timey pens that come in those drafting sets back in the days of Cerebrial Aided Design.  Because you can adjust them, and they're way controllable, and if you build on my schedule they don't get clogged with ink after sitting in a drawer for a year.

And besides -- I'm using my Dad's old drafting set, probably from when he went to college on the GI bill right after getting out of the Navy some time between WW2 and Korea.  Granted -- he hated college and he dropped out, but it's still his old drafting set, in a case that my grandfather Wescott probably made, so how can I say no?

[Tim Wescott]

Shazbat

[Tim Wescott]

I've given up on the finish.  Lipstick is heavy, and this thing is just going to be a pig anyway.