Learning Inverted Flying

[Kafin Noe’man]

Hi all,

I just starting to learn flying inverted.
Did couple of laps but then I crashed my Banshee because of wrong input at the handle.
Most likely due to flying too high so I got disoriented on altitude combined with dizziness made me lost my focus and sight to see the horizon.

So what are the tips for flying inverted for the first time?

[Tim Wescott]

Hi all,

I just starting to learn flying inverted.
Did couple of laps but then I crashed my Banshee because of wrong input at the handle.
Most likely due to flying too high so I got disoriented on altitude combined with dizziness made me lost my focus and sight to see the horizon.

So what are the tips for flying inverted for the first time?

If you can do a couple of laps without crashing then you're well on your way.

Keep at it.  If it's not too late, don't think about "up" and "down".  Think about "wheels" and "canopy".  As in -- if you're headed to the ground and the wheels are pointing up, go toward the wheels.  If you're inverted and heading toward the ground and you think "down, no up, no down, no..." then you'll hit the ground before you have it all figured out.  "Wheels!" is a one-step conversation with yourself that results in the right answer.

[Paul Walker]

Do lazy eights and just extend the outside portion a bit longer each time. It will become easy after enough tries.

[Dan McEntee]

    Yes, do the lazy 8 thing and stretch them out to about a half lap. Keep in mind that the airplane has a top and a bottom, and so does the handle. Think Top Control and Bottom Control. No matter what the attitude of the airplane, there is always a bottom and top. If you get too low while inverted, Bottom Control. As you go through the long lazy eights, recite the inputs to yourself as you go through the motions. Then extend the inverted to a lap at a time, then half outside loop back. Always do the half outside loop. If you get into any trouble, always give Down Control as it will always get you back upright. If competition is your goal, keep in mind that you don't do more than 6 laps inverted. I can fly more than that, but even this late in my game I will get a bit dizzy after 8 laps inverted because we just don't fly that position very much, just the six laps. Get yourself a beater airplane that will at least fly loops, eights and inverted and use that for your main practice. Something cheap, rugged and easy to fix. Every time you go out to fly, start off with a tank full of fuel or two just doing the 8s , then the inverted for a lap  or two, and add extra laps as you get more comfortable. You will know when that is, so just do it then. The repetition and doing things in the same routine each time will pay off in confidence.
    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[M Spencer]

A / .  Walk the Walk !

Stick your handle in your hand . Go out into the CENTER . Stand up STRAIGHT ! . Start Rotating CLOCKWISE .
IF you LIFT your Right Foot & Rotate , And lift & swing your Left Leg , youll have the most econonmical STEP .

you want to do it 1 dozen laps . at first  . If your going to do 20 laps do 20 . This gets THIS BIT ' out of the way '

B / . Hold Out your ARM while you rotateing clockwise , loking past it to where is the aeorplane .    as thats going to be The Problem ! .

C/. If you hold your Arm Straight and the Handle Flat . Bottom line to the right , itll whistle round up there somewhere .

If you PANIC - swing the Arm HARD RIGHT ( keeping it flat ) Your Upright .

If you LEAD with your arm , your HIGH .

As the aeroplane leads your arm - so it goes LOWER .
so if you wanna go real low FAST . keep the handle FLAT & Stop Turning .          

Works quite well , if you dont go to far on the last step . 

[Ken Culbertson]

don't think about "up" and "down".  Think about "wheels" and "canopy"

YES!  This is not just for learning inverted, it is how you should fly everything.  Once you stop thinking "up and down" and "upright and inverted" you are well on your way to doing anything you want.  We are flying on a hemisphere and there is no up or down on a sphere.  You could spend years crashing if you think up/down.  The old Up is Down, Down is Up rule was created by kit manufacturers to keep you building all the time.

Keep it up - you have gone from "how do I do a loop" to flying inverted in a very short time.

Ken

About the wheels and canopy, I learned a lot of my basics maneuvering flying a McCoy 35 powered VooDoo. Yes I said McCoy.  I had learneed the Wheels Canopy method on a Jr. Flight streak.  I never crashed the VooDoo from reversed controls even practicing low level (1') inverted.  Once you have it, you don't need either reference anymore.  Your subconscious knows the top and bottom of anything you fly.  FYI, the streamer when learning stunts really helped me. 

[kevin king]

 once you flip the plane over and are flying level inverted the most common mistake is applying 'up' control. Therefore when the plane is flying inverted and every time the plane starts to fly down, i keep saying to myself "down....(control) down....(control)
down...(control)" and  keep nudging the nose back up to level flight again. Its simple to do

[M Spencer]

Do lazy eights and just extend the outside portion a bit longer each time. It will become easy after enough tries.

Once you can ' feel ' its steady thru the eight , you stretch it a way each time , out to 1/4 lap , then half , eventually one then two .

As your into the ' down for up 'your swing it the right way & the right mindset to swing the arm , to bring her ' up ' inverted .

You want maybe a little noseweight if its touchy / toey on the controls . A Combat Streamer steadies & is visually good . As seeing the plane helps >
The BACKGROUND & plane dissapearing can be a problem . You can see it easier in a Big Field , often . TREES tend to hide it , if theres a belt of them .

AND the plane should ' hang out there ' you dont want the lines going loose .

LAZY EIGHT is where you go DOWNHILL in the middle - this is easier on the aeroplane . ( UPHILL in the middle of the eight it slows down more - needs more power )

Wondered if maybe it was ' loose ' inverted  ( warp / tip weight etc  )

SO youd do a loop then as it goes DOWN pull around into a outside loop - up - over - down - into inside loop ( on left - outside on your right )
So the downhill is where you stretch it - it keeps up the speed .
EXTRA tip weight isnt going to hurt , the IMPORTANT THING is to have control - tight lines . Not loose ones , anyway .

Another THING is SOFT GROUND . long grass , watered field , drained swamp . Not hard sun baked clay or ' hard top ' , unless your born lucky .

[Rick Campbell]

DO WHAT PAUL WALKER SAID!  Another benefit of this method is that it drills into your mind and muscle memory that the safe escape path is DOWN control.

[Colin McRae]

All great suggestions. I also crashed when learning inverted so don't feel too bad. We have all been there. Just keep at it. I agree stretching out lazy 8s is probably best. But once you get the hang of it and force yourself to practice it will become automatic.

I am working myself through the pattern. When I start to learn a new stunt, I use an old model (One that I have crashed before and repaired. My Ringmaster comes to mind that I have repaired 4x.) And always remember that altitude is your friend. I first flew inverted up quite high so there is more time to react and correct.

I recently have been able to do vertical 8's. Still need a lot of practice. I am also soon to start on overhead 8's. What I have been trying is to get into a normal lazy 8, then progressively move the maneuver higher and higher until it is overhead. I just need to get comfortable flying 'overhead' before I try to get the maneuver into a real overhead 8.

[Ken Culbertson]

All great suggestions. I also crashed when learning inverted so don't feel too bad. We have all been there. Just keep at it. I agree stretching out lazy 8s is probably best. But once you get the hang of it and force yourself to practice it will become automatic.

I am working myself through the pattern. When I start to learn a new stunt, I use an old model (One that I have crashed before and repaired. My Ringmaster comes to mind that I have repaired 4x.) And always remember that altitude is your friend. I first flew inverted up quite high so there is more time to react and correct.

I recently have been able to do vertical 8's. Still need a lot of practice. I am also soon to start on overhead 8's. What I have been trying is to get into a normal lazy 8, then progressively move the maneuver higher and higher until it is overhead. I just need to get comfortable flying 'overhead' before I try to get the maneuver into a real overhead 8.

Keep in mind that the AMA overhead is opposite of the lazy 8.  On a lazy 8 all of your turns are from the outside of the 8 towards the center.  On the AMA you are going from the center to the outside. 

Still, the lazy 8 is the best tool for learning inverted, just don't let that evil "Down is Up" jargon creep into thinking.

Ken

ps - show me someone who never crashed learning inverted !

[Colin McRae]

Keep in mind that the AMA overhead is opposite of the lazy 8.  On a lazy 8 all of your turns are from the outside of the 8 towards the center.  On the AMA you are going from the center to the outside. 

Still, the lazy 8 is the best tool for learning inverted, just don't let that evil "Down is Up" jargon creep into thinking.

Ken

ps - show me someone who never crashed learning inverted !

Thx Ken. I do understand what the AMA overhead 8 is. But I am new to overhead flying. Just trying to get used to flying up over my head. Things like less pull awareness, not getting disoriented, etc.

I am also having a hell of a time getting my squares to be 'somewhat square'.

[Ken Culbertson]

I am also having a hell of a time getting my squares to be 'somewhat square'.

Don't feel bed.  So are about half of the people that qualified at the Nats!  Seeing it in your mind's eye will help but that in itself takes time.  First time I was told to visualize a maneuver then fly what you see I did a telephone pole, two trees and a truck.  One thing that will really help is to do a lot of dry flying where you teach your arm exactly when it is at 45 degrees and your shoulders just how wide 1/8 of a circle is.  You can use any kind of aide you want to figure that out.  When I have been off a while I will put out cones and go to the center of the circle to get my body referenced reset.  I set a pair to 1/8 of a circle then move each one towards the center about 10'  This lets me set my arm references to where I start a corner. Forget outside references INCLUDING THE GROUND.  When you fly an inside square let the plane get behind you a bit then stop turning, plant your feet and square your shoulders .  Let the plane fly past you till your wrist reaches your left shoulder reference.  Make the turn vertical.  When your arm is almost at 45 make the second turn.  When the plane passes your right shoulder reference make the 3rd turn.   Now here is the part where I part company with most.  Let your arm tell you when to make the 4th turn.  Forget the ground.  That is not where 5' is.  It is where your lines hit horizontal.  A turn 10' off of the ground takes the same amount of room and the same control input as one 1' off of the ground.  Another thing that helps is to figure out just how tight you can turn and comfortably lock into a flat.  Keep the maneuver at the right height and width no matter what the rest of it looks like and make your flats whatever is left over from the corners.  This will lock in the shapes which is the most important part of all maneuvers.   Gradually tighten your corners as you learn to feel the plane in the corner and locking will become automatic.

Read up on what Ted Fancher has to say in his "What to look at" thread in the "At the Handle" forum.  He covers this with much more specificity, and fewer words  , than I can.

Ken

[Steve Helmick]

I agree with Paul Walker and Kevin King's posts. My first try was as a HS Junior (one and only Ringmaster), and my 2nd try was a year or two later, flying a 100 mph combat model. "Next control input will be DOWN"...repeat after me! You'll learn to adjust your level flight altitude later...squeeze the pinky finger or index finger to make slight changes...it works. Ted's suggestion.

Years later, I was back to CL flying and comfortable enough while flying inverted to check my stopwatch to see if I was at risk of running out of fuel. But I decided that was just not a good idea. The solution was to learn the pattern, so that I'd know when to expect it to run dry. I fly the pattern every flight, unless something is wrong, like bad NV setting, new model trim problem, etc.  Steve

[M Spencer]

Orll Korrekt .

Id do a few - get the feel - of a few outside loops / bunts , first . THOUGH . Check all travels = etc & no sticking .

Step Back through it at first - So as to see the lines ARE TIGHT .

THIS is a lazy eight . Couldnt find a illustration , so pulled it out of INFINITY . 



UP at the OUTSIDE .

DOWN in the Center .

[M Spencer]

A New Manouvre to add to the schedule . 

[bill bischoff]

I learned this trick from a fellow club member almost 40 years ago. The purists may scoff, but it worked extremely well for me and it imparts a much needed shot of confidence. Start an inside loop, and as you go past the top of the loop, turn your handle palm up and begin turning around the circle in the inverted direction. If you begin turning at the right time, and match your speed with the airplane, your airplane will be flying inverted. If you get in a panic or don't know what to do, simply stand still and don't move your handle. As the airplane continues around the circle, it will give a continuous increase of down elevator, "automatically" righting the airplane. This "get out of jail free card" was all I needed to be able to fly inverted confidently, and the entire pattern followed in quick succession. Of course, the rest of one's life can be spent trying to perfect the pattern!


Thank you, Phillip Nickles. 

[Ken Culbertson]

Of course, the rest of one's life can will be spent trying to perfect the pattern!  ... and trying to stop turning your palm up when you are inverted

Ken

[Steve Helmick]

The problem with holding the handle sideways (i.e., not vertical) is that any mismatch between your rotational speed and the model WILL make your inverted flight unsteady. Basically, it works, but it's NOT a good idea and a very hard habit to break. I used to lean my handle left to about 10 o'clock position when flying inverted, and it took me about two years to stop doing that. Keep your handle vertical!

Laser straight inverted laps at the correct AOG is a pretty easy way to score a bunch of points from me, just as a really good takeoff and upright level laps. The takeoff and upright level laps is more difficult but a lot of fliers give up big points due to lack of concentration and a skyrocket liftoff (the last often comes from normally flying on grass but flying contests on pavement).  Steve

[kevin king]

Lazy 8 is to complicated for a novice looking to fly inverted.  Just flip the plane on its back from an inside loop and apply Down control if you get too close to the ground.
My 2 cents.

[Kafin Noe’man]

Lazy 8 is to complicated for a novice looking to fly inverted.  Just flip the plane on its back from an inside loop and apply Down control if you get too close to the ground.
My 2 cents.

Thank you all for your advices.

I just finished my practice, and this was pretty much what I did.


I managed to do it like that for several times in a flight without crashing.

One reason was because I didn’t have the confidence to do the outside loop immediately after the inside loop.

[John Rist]

Great!     PS if you look at your drawing you are doing what amounts to a sloppy lazy 8.   

[Dan McEntee]

Thank you all for your advices.

I just finished my practice, and this was pretty much what I did.


I managed to do it like that for several times in a flight without crashing.

One reason was because I didn’t have the confidence to do the outside loop as soon as possible after the inside loop.

      Just keep that up and increase the duration as you feel comfortable. You'll get to full laps soon enough. Like I mentioned before, you only need to do 6 laps inverted in competition, so that could be your goal.

     Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

  PS if you look at your drawing you are doing what amounts to a sloppy lazy 8.   

John beat me to it!  You are doing a Lazy 8.  Just hold the inside a bit longer as you get the confidence.  One time you will just keep going.  Don't push it, it will happen when you are ready.

Ken

One other bit of advice that all here don't share.  The hand position for inverted is THE SAME as it is for level flight.  Learn it that way and you will not have to unlearn it later.

[Steve Helmick]

Expect to get dizzy when flying inverted. I can manage the required laps, but it's about at my limit. Possibly related to hearing (tinitus) problems, so please protect your hearing. It's way too late for mine.  Steve

[Abi]

Just remember the mantra: when in trouble, put your "gun" in the holster. pretend the handle is like a handle of a gun. When in trouble, go for the holster! That movement will cause the model to flip.

[kevin king]

Having a 1/2a Sig Skyray around to try inverted , hour glasses and so on first is another good idea. Less likely to break. Easier 
 to fix if you do break it.

[Philip THOMAS]

This is all good advice but the problem is recovery is intuitively the opposite of what your brain is programmed to do. It is a bit like someone changing the steering wheel of your car to make left is right, right is Left.
The thing I found most foolproof is entering a loop and then talking to myself “ ok now break DOWN!”  And as you do this bring your left hand over and place it palm down lightly on your right forearm, which is another source of tactile information to your brain that this is a DIFFERENT situation, steadies your right arm and stop the reflex raising of your right arm.
Remember the model doesn’t care that’s it’s inverted and flies just as well. Do a few laps, settle in, breath, practice little downward flicks of your wrist to correct, and then leave plenty of thinking time to plan your outside half loop recovery.
Get a reference point to judge you height, maybe those trees at the outside of your flying field.
Cheers, PT

[Dennis Nunes]

This is all good advice but the problem is recovery is intuitively the opposite of what your brain is programmed to do.

I like the line in the movie Top Gun Maverick - "Don't think, just do"! Eventually flying inverted should become just like flying upright. The brain doesn't need to know that you're inverted. After time it becomes natural. 


Dennis

[Steve Helmick]

Just remember the mantra: when in trouble, put your "gun" in the holster. pretend the handle is like a handle of a gun. When in trouble, go for the holster! That movement will cause the model to flip.

I'd get my handle stuck in my shoulder holster. Seems to me like Abi's mantra is less useful than "give it down control next", but I could be wrong. 

Also, I'm not sure why anybody would think "lazy 8's" are complex...I was doing them when I was in Jr. High, as well as lazy vertical 8's, outside loops from upright flight, and wingovers. "Dry Flying" is your friend!

I'm still a fan of vertical square 8's, but haven't done any in about 50-55 years. They were "lazy" also. Nope, didn't know any different. I am a bit miffed that we do a "lazy" hourglass. Maybe we should fix that?  Steve 

[Ken Culbertson]

I am a bit miffed that we do a "lazy" hourglass. Maybe we should fix that?  Steve

Try and convince people that the top is the same size as a smaller than a triangle bottom BUT NOT THAT MUCH!  At our last contest I flew a "proper" hourglass and got a 28.  Next round at the prompting of several of our other experts I flew the bean pole and got a 36.  You have little choice but to fly what the judges want.

Ken

[Doug Moon]

I learned this trick from a fellow club member almost 40 years ago. The purists may scoff, but it worked extremely well for me and it imparts a much needed shot of confidence. Start an inside loop, and as you go past the top of the loop, turn your handle palm up and begin turning around the circle in the inverted direction. If you begin turning at the right time, and match your speed with the airplane, your airplane will be flying inverted. If you get in a panic or don't know what to do, simply stand still and don't move your handle. As the airplane continues around the circle, it will give a continuous increase of down elevator, "automatically" righting the airplane. This "get out of jail free card" was all I needed to be able to fly inverted confidently, and the entire pattern followed in quick succession. Of course, the rest of one's life can be spent trying to perfect the pattern!


Thank you, Phillip Nickles. 

This is exactly how I learned it as well from Scotty Scott, you may have been there too that evening. I know you have told me palm up the way way past before. It was late one evening and I had a torn up Chipmonk that was still somehow flyable after Steve and I had beat the hell of it for a few months. I was talking with him about it and he said "lets get it done" He stood behind me and worked the handle with me and we did some lazy eights and then we held it out long for a lap inverted with palm up. He on purpose stopped my from turning to show me what would happen. Sure enough the plane flipped right over, all be it pretty shaky and wobbly. It happens very quick once it starts to roll back over so be ready to level back out. I left the field that day on cloud 9! What a AMAZING day! I still fly like that today. Hahahaha!

If you do learn to fly inverted palm up once you can do it without crashing, a couple of sessions, quickly move to learning it with your hand vertical. I didn't and I do alot of unnecessary hand waiving.

[Doug Moon]

  .....You have little choice but to fly what the judges want.

Ken

Nah, you cant think this way. You have little choice but to fly what the rule book wants. Maybe, just maybe, what looks like the the bean pole to you is closer to the rule book than you thought....

Trying to figure out what the judges "want" as you go through a contest is a recipe for endless frustration...oh wait is that what stunt is all about? Endless frustration... 

[Ken Culbertson]

...oh wait is that what stunt is all about? Endless frustration... 

We will have to agree to disagree on the hourglass.  Wrong thread to go into why.  But your last comment - absolutely true but in a good way.  George's Revenge. 

On your other post, I learned it that way too (palm up) in the early 60's and flew it that way till 2017.  It took 4 years to get vertical to be natural.  When you get to a physical advanced age (stunt fliers don't grow up) your balance and cadence as you walk the circle becomes an issue.  Hunting is hard enough to control at my age with a vertical hand position.  Impossible with palm up.

Ken

[Trostle]

Deleted

[Ted Fancher]

At the risk of sounding like a broken letter to many of the guys helping you out I want to add something I think is very important that I don't be has been discussed.

Do what you can do to make the mechanical part of your task simpler!  Even if it seems too "basic" to bother with.

At many place in Stunt hangar I've discussed my very real preference for the correct (IMHO) grip to fly competitive stunt...or...just not wreck your airplane trying to learn new "stuff".

One of the primary things a can suggest for somebody that wants to fly CLPA tricks is to insure that at neutral your handle is gripped so that the HANDLE grip is "VERTICAL"  when gripped with the controls at neutral NOT IN A RELAXED "SIX GUN" GRIP!

Your goal should be to be able to make all of the inputs for essentially all of the stunt "tricks" with up and down wrist inputs WHILE the your arm and hand follow the airplane on its "figure" path.

If one of your problems is getting enough down control when attempting the "outside" parts of your maneuvers...having to "pull" the handle down to get the down input necessary for the "outside" portions of the lazy eights (eventually, "figure eights) this is very likely a good part of your problem.

You "ain't" shooting a six shooter, you're trying to do tricks in both directions with your toy plane.  The handle is an integral part of the "airplane's" control system and it should...IMHO....be aligned with the same attitude and care as the onboard members of the control system...not biased of into outer space!

More later if you want.  Gotta run errands for Mama.

Ted Fancher

p.s. check out those first "articles" pinned to the top of the "At The Handle" forum in Stunt Hangar for more input along these lines.

[Abi]

I'd get my handle stuck in my shoulder holster. Seems to me like Abi's mantra is less useful than "give it down control next", but I could be wrong. 

I guess you're more of a "Die Hard" than a "High Noon" type of gun guy. There is no fixing that!

[Abi]

You "ain't" shooting a six shooter

Oh, I see what you did there! 

[Steve Helmick]

I guess you're more of a "Die Hard" than a "High Noon" type of gun guy. There is no fixing that!

Inspector Callahan, "Dirty Harry".  Steve