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Author Topic: Leadout lube.  (Read 2033 times)

Online Perry Rose

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Leadout lube.
« on: December 09, 2021, 05:22:01 AM »
A famous designer, builder, flyer made mention that he lubricates the leadouts on his planes just about after every flight. Most of the time with exhaust residue oil. How many of you lubricate your leadout lines?
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2021, 06:52:13 AM »
A famous designer, builder, flyer made mention that he lubricates the leadouts on his planes just about after every flight. Most of the time with exhaust residue oil. How many of you lubricate your leadout lines?

Never. And if I did it would be with graphite, not oil!

Jerry

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2021, 07:39:39 AM »
Never. And if I did it would be with graphite, not oil!

Jerry

Graphite maybe but I agree never oil. I use paste wax on all of my shop equipment which double duties as a protectant, keeps the cast iron from rusting, and lubricant, the materials slide much easier on the cast iron. The same applies for firearms in show cases and I've used it on my 7 strand flying lines to some success. Having said that, I no longer have any slimers in service and the only reason I paste wax my lines is for slickness. The brand of paste wax doesn't seem to make much difference and it also works excellently for a mold release agent base. First step in mold preparation, apply a couple coats of paste wax.

I never finish my lead outs before covering and painting. I simply cut both the same length at neutral and tuck them in to the leadout channel before covering, assuming there is an adjustable lead out slot which I never don't use. Then I cover over the hole and finish the airplane. After all of the finish work is completed an Exacto knife will open the hole back up. The last thing I do before taking the airplane to the field for its first maiden flight is finish the lead outs. That will preclude having to mechanically remove any finish material from the lead out lines. An alternative is to use a plastic stir straw like you see in the coffee shop. I use them on exposed push rods.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2021, 11:38:57 AM »
The question is do your planes last long enough to even lube them??  Crash Cucci wants to know. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

ROTFLMAO Do I have to answer that? 
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2021, 01:07:14 PM »
I just run them dry (except for whatever castor fog gets to them).  So far "crash before wear out" seems to be working, even on the plane with almost 1000 flights.

I may start waxing them, though -- that sounds like a good idea.
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2021, 01:21:40 PM »
I just run them dry (except for whatever castor fog gets to them).  So far "crash before wear out" seems to be working, even on the plane with almost 1000 flights.

I may start waxing them, though -- that sounds like a good idea.

I would have to say my lines get snagged or suffer from a curl before either event occurs and I make a new set. My waxing method for lines is straight forward. My current can is Johnsons Paste Wax from Home depot but it could be about any. Use a cotton rag and get it real wet with the wax. With the lines stretched out you want to a get a fairly good coat on them but now so much you make cakes. let it dry for 10 minutes or so. The lines will feel kinda sticky at this point, that's ok. Then just use a clean rag and "buff" wipe them down until they aren't sticky. I started doing this because the sevens tend to grab when running the twists out. It seems to help. Plus moisture definitely doesn't stick.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2021, 03:03:51 PM »
I never-ever lubricated leadout holes.
And never-ever used any metallic material for that place. (Neither brass, nor bronze and pure copper, etc.).
Leadout lines can saw them, (mostly the thin walled brass tubes), and I saw several crashes, or "quasi catastrophes" by our oldboys.
I the ancient times I used simple textile-bakelite ("Phenolic") plate, ca. 4 mm ( 1/6") thick, in the last decades I use ZX-100 plates.
See:
https://www.zedex.de/en/brands/zx-100
Remark: I strongly advise using this material, where the counterpart is hard, polished steel. (Bellcrank, pushrod clevis, etc.) 
Good vibration damping, and never wears out.
Istvan

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2021, 04:47:20 PM »
I've used Delrin as lead out guide material for decades, also bellcranks and control horn uprights.  It never NEVER wears and is called self-lubricating. Putting anything on the leadouts or lines I think will attract grime.  Rather I wipe the lines with alcohol before each fight to keep them as clean as possible.  This will keep the lines smooth and slick enough for our needs.  Not sure how we are going to clean Gsump.......

Dave
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Online Robert Zambelli

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2021, 06:17:18 PM »
Way to go, Dave - keep it simple and reliable!
Bob Z.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2021, 06:32:18 PM »
Paste wax dries to a hard finish and generally doesn't attract dirt and will help with removal. We have humidity here and steel stuff rusts in my shop. Plus my hangar roof isn't as water proof as it was before the people who replaced the metal skin fixed it. I first started on my table saw years ago simply to make it have less friction. Then after living here I was having troubles with rust and I've used a couple of products one of which is super awesome Stewart Systems conversion coat. That's a waterborne poly urethane with a conversion additive that stops corrosion and creates a hard film layer. That doesn't work so well on hand tools and such which I often gun blue and then paste wax. I first used it on my lines because of the wet grass. It works. One application for the season. I'm not suggesting anyone use it. I'm just sharing something that works for me.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2021, 06:44:37 PM »
A famous designer, builder, flyer made mention that he lubricates the leadouts on his planes just about after every flight. Most of the time with exhaust residue oil. How many of you lubricate your leadout lines?

    Lubricate it for what purpose?  I can see maybe doing it with solids to keep down the rust, but other than that, I can't see what it is you would lubricate it for.

    Brett

Offline Dave Harmon

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2021, 07:07:27 PM »
    Lubricate it for what purpose?  I can see maybe doing it with solids to keep down the rust, but other than that, I can't see what it is you would lubricate it for.

    Brett

That's right Brett.....
I don't have any prairie fire starting airplanes but I DO clean the lines and lead outs occasionally with naphtha.
The only thing I wax is guitars.

Online Perry Rose

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2021, 05:29:00 AM »
In the ARF section the video on building the Strega at 1:38:00 to 1:39:00 is the part I'm questioning.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
I wouldn't take her to a dog fight even if she had a chance to win.
The worst part of growing old is remembering when you were young.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2021, 08:56:00 AM »
The old DOC here has never lubricated a set of lines or lead outs.   Before first flight wipe with clean cloth and do it again after last flight.  Racing planes I wipe lines down after each race. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2021, 10:34:20 AM »
In the ARF section the video on building the Strega at 1:38:00 to 1:39:00 is the part I'm questioning.

   
    OK. Depending on the leadout guide material, this might make it wear better, or worse. I have always used delrin for the guide, the Sullivan CD-leadouts straight from the package (which is like a thicker version of the Ukrainian brass-plated carbon steel wire) and have never had a hint of wear on any of them - the plating is still intact, even on the leadouts of the airplane I started flying in 1989.

    But, even in the 4 minutes of video I watched looking for this clip, it became very obvious why he might have had a problem with wear - you can't (or at least shouldn't) use the leadout adjustment the way he describes!  It is not an arbitrary yaw angle adjuster, it has to work in concert with the rudder adjustment, and in an idealized situation, the leadouts wouldn't even touch the guide, and in a real situation, should only put light pressure on the guide. Anything else, and you are putting consequential torque on the airplane more-or-less all the time, which is going to change as you begin to maneuver. That torque also moves the airplane around in yaw (or roll, for that matter).   Of course, it also causes wear somewhere on the airplane, either the leadouts or the guide.

     Additionally, taking some oil and wiping it on, you also have any dust or grit that might be flying around stick to the leadouts, which will turn the leadouts into a cable saw. Improper use of the adjustable leadouts as described may well benefit from some lubrication, since the same force you are applying will also tend to induce control binding, which might get better/hunt less with some lube on it. But it is likely to wear out much faster.

  Make no mistake, Windy was an *extremely successful* competitor, one of the more successful and skillful pilots in the history of the event, with an enviable contest record - that almost no one reading this will ever achieve. But little things like this open a window into how skilled and determined he was at the handle, because the trim notion he is illustrating is so fundamentally faulty, conceptually mistaken, that if anyone else uses the same idea, they would *never* have much luck without thousands and thousands of flights a year to try to learn how to work around the problem. During which time Paul, David, and Orestes will also do hundred or thousands of flights *without* a handicap to overcome, and wind up far ahead of the game. Which is *why they have been winning everything there is to win, very consistently, for many years/decades now!

    If you think this was an aberration, I would guess this video was made in the mid 00's. Windy's real airplanes of the era, like the Testarossa, flew in a manner that is perfectly consistent with trying to control the yaw angle with the leadout guide, IOW, wild (by Walker Flyoff standards) yaw oscillation in in any sort of maneuvering. To make flights of the quality he was making - extremely high by any standard - with the airplane so far out of trim, is a remarkable achievement. I couldn't have done it (and didn't need to...) . It may have been as simple as not knowing how to use the leadout guide/rudder adjustment to adjust the roll/yaw trim. And one small problem is *all it takes* to put you on the wrong foot when you are going up against others.

    Note that the method for sealing the hinge lines shown shortly before that is less-than-ideal - it will tend to create the "accordian fold" issue. you want to attach the seal all the way down to the hinge line  to both the elevator and the stabilizer, and then cross the gap with the seal right in line with the hinge pins. That way, all you are doing is bending a single thickness of the tape, not compressing and expanding it as you move the controls.

      Brett

p.s. by the way, the reason the airplane is more "stable" as he puts it when you have the leadouts back is that a soon as you move the controls, it either yaws the airplane out further (or yaws it in less) than it would have done otherwise. Do that, and the line tension suddenly increases when you move the controls, requiring increased control pressure for a given turn radius. Further foward, this issue is reduced, until you go too far, at which point it will suddenly lighten up on control motion, causing both the loss of line tension, and if you still have *some*, the corner to tighten further due to reduced control pressure.  Similar effects happen with excess tipweight, too little tip weight, incorrect rudder offset or Rabe rudder adjustments, basically any trim issue.

    It's not just about getting *enough* line tension, it's about getting as near as you can to *constant* line tension so that the control response is consistent. You can use *slight* mal-adjustments to optimize the control response, but these are tiny deviations (1/16" of leadout guide movement, a gram or two of tip weight, (and on my airplane) 1/64" of rudder offset variation. The same effect is why out-of-trim airplanes are so difficult to fly.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 10:56:43 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2021, 10:49:26 AM »
Not sure how we are going to clean Gsump.......

Not in the washing machine. I can tell you that. They’re hard to untangle after the spin cycle.
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2021, 10:50:38 AM »
We’re waxing down our leadouts. Can hardly wait till June.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Leadout lube.
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2021, 10:56:28 AM »
You wouldn’t need lube if you adequately preflighted your airplane.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again


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