Lazy 8 Practice, the Entry Point for Mastering the Full Pattern

[Kafin Noe’man]

Hi all,

After months of flying practice alone, without any mentor’s presence in person at the handle.
After months of asking some basic/stupid questions and getting inputs as well as how-to, mostly in a text form.
After months of figuring out what’s gone wrong with my planes setup.
I have finally achieved this point, a point where it’s like the entry point to be able to go further and master the rest of the stunt maneuvers.

These 2 videos are dedicated to those who have responded to my questions and helped me. Thank you!
I know it’s still not in perfect shape or size, but I’ll keep flying. Practice makes perfect, doesn’t it?

Lazy 8 practice with Banshee
https://youtube.com/watch?v=w4svMYv-6dU&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

Lazy 8 practice with Vector 40
https://youtube.com/watch?v=VLzWuCc0ISM&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

I’ll keep you updated with my progress, I will upload new videos again when I make another significant progress.


Best,
Kafin Noe’man

[Steve Helmick]

Except for the Old Time Stunt pattern, and learning to fly inverted, the Lazy 8 is not worth practicing, because it is NOT the horizontal 8 as called for in the F2B or 'modern' AMA pattern. So, I gotta ask, how is your inverted flying going for you? Since your models are not OTS designs, it would seem that you're working toward only the AMA/FAI pattern, correct?

The FAI/AMA horizontal eight(s) starts with a full 360 degrees of inside loop, followed by a full 360 degrees of outside loop...to your left, assuming you're flying counter-clockwise, and repeated twice. The vertical 8's are the same, except the outsides are stacked vertically atop the insides, which you will find MUCH more challenging.  Steve

Steve

[Dan McEntee]

.. Keep up with the lazy eights. Work on adjusting the controls on the Banshee to maybe slow them down a bit. The Vector looks more smooth. The contrast between how the two models fly is probably a good thing. You will like one model better that the other, and you can work on making the "other" model fly more like the favorite. You can stretch the inverted portion of the lazy eight to work on inverted skills. Loop to inverted, then pull out at about 10 feet and do a full lap until you are down wind again, the half loop outside to upright again. Keep working on that and increase your confidence. Keep making notes on problems and what you do that corrects them. An adfvantage to having these videos is that as you improve you can compare to the "old days" !!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[John Skukalek]

Wow Kafin! I remember when I first was able to do lazy eights and how very exciting it was. I hope its exciting and joyful to you the way it was for me. It was a tremendous stepping stone to developing feel for the airplane and flying beyond just level.

[Mark Schluter]

You can stretch the inverted portion of the lazy eight to work on inverted skills. Loop to inverted, then pull out at about 10 feet and do a full lap until you are down wind again, the half loop outside to upright again. Keep working on that and increase your confidence.

Dan is so right! Lazy 8s are a great way to develop the "muscle memory" needed for inverted flight without needlessly cracking up your nice planes. Transitioning from having to  "think" about inverted flight (or outside turns in general) to having it become a natural reflex puts you in position to tackle the AMA 8s and beyond. So yea, stretchhhh em out, and keep up the nice work!

[John Carrodus]

Well done Kafin. Keep it up, your skill and confidence will increase in leaps and bounds if you keep gaining altitude with that attitude. I salute you Sir.

[Ken Culbertson]

Ditto's to what Dan said.  You have progressed a lot since we last heard from you.  Just keep stretching the flat part till you are comfortable at just under a half lap.  I say a half lap because learning how to position in wind will become critical later and feeling that burst of speed that comes with turning up into the wind is something your muscles need to remember.  With enough practice you can do lazy eights even after the motor quits in a moderate to strong wind.  Before progressing to the full laps inverted make sure that you have gotten to the point where you are not thinking "down" to exit but are visualizing the plane making an outside turn and your subconscious does it for you.  It is never too early to start developing this and it is critical to mastering the F2B versions without having to spend too much time in the shop.

The one thing about the "pattern" is that no matter how many thousand of them you have flown, you never get tired of doing it because each one is different.  I see squares in your near future. 

Ken

PS - I agree with the assessment that you should trim the Banshee to fly more like the Vector.

[Kafin Noe’man]

.. Keep up with the lazy eights. Work on adjusting the controls on the Banshee to maybe slow them down a bit. The Vector looks more smooth. The contrast between how the two models fly is probably a good thing. You will like one model better that the other, and you can work on making the "other" model fly more like the favorite. You can stretch the inverted portion of the lazy eight to work on inverted skills. Loop to inverted, then pull out at about 10 feet and do a full lap until you are down wind again, the half loop outside to upright again. Keep working on that and increase your confidence. Keep making notes on problems and what you do that corrects them. An adfvantage to having these videos is that as you improve you can compare to the "old days" !!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Yep, you’re right Dan.

After reviewing the video and taking some notes, the Banshee is still too fast.

My Vector has been the most enjoyable plane I have now, I guess I have managed to trim it more properly.
 
This definitely will be the refrence for trimming the other planes I have now.

[Kafin Noe’man]

Wow Kafin! I remember when I first was able to do lazy eights and how very exciting it was. I hope its exciting and joyful to you the way it was for me. It was a tremendous stepping stone to developing feel for the airplane and flying beyond just level.

Yes, John.
It’s very exciting and it makes me wanna fly and learn more since I get more confidence doing it.

[Kafin Noe’man]

Dan is so right! Lazy 8s are a great way to develop the "muscle memory" needed for inverted flight without needlessly cracking up your nice planes. Transitioning from having to  "think" about inverted flight (or outside turns in general) to having it become a natural reflex puts you in position to tackle the AMA 8s and beyond. So yea, stretchhhh em out, and keep up the nice work!

Yes, Mark. Doing that Lazy 8 over and over has helped my reflexes when the plane starts to fly inverted.
I feel that it becomes much more a natural reflex. It really makes me to be able to fly more calmly and with confidence.

Previously, doing that thing makes me thinking too much, and when you finish thinking you realize it’s already too late 

[Kafin Noe’man]

Well done Kafin. Keep it up, your skill and confidence will increase in leaps and bounds if you keep gaining altitude with that attitude. I salute you Sir.

Yes, sir!
I will keep flying and learning.

[M Spencer]

Knack tuually , one of these , besides offending the purists , ONCE



Youve figured what itll tun downward ( How Big ) and stay OVER that hight ,

you can do ALL SORTS of wonderous manouvres , without problem . perhaps .

And the holes in the ground from ' opps ' moments are less expensive & time consuming .

A OS 30 & a 9 x 6 , run a 4-2 and your in buisness . Unless it goes lean . +

This ones simple to build and works . Durability being paramount . Most of the modern suckers
simiarly endowed & a tad nose heavy , will cruise through the pattern with ease .
With a bit of nose & tip weight .

Those TIPS are ONE or the OTHER . You Cant Have BOTH .     

[Kafin Noe’man]

Ditto's to what Dan said.  You have progressed a lot since we last heard from you.  Just keep stretching the flat part till you are comfortable at just under a half lap.  I say a half lap because learning how to position in wind will become critical later and feeling that burst of speed that comes with turning up into the wind is something your muscles need to remember.  With enough practice you can do lazy eights even after the motor quits in a moderate to strong wind.  Before progressing to the full laps inverted make sure that you have gotten to the point where you are not thinking "down" to exit but are visualizing the plane making an outside turn and your subconscious does it for you.  It is never too early to start developing this and it is critical to mastering the F2B versions without having to spend too much time in the shop.

The one thing about the "pattern" is that no matter how many thousand of them you have flown, you never get tired of doing it because each one is different.  I see squares in your near future. 

Ken

PS - I agree with the assessment that you should trim the Banshee to fly more like the Vector.

Hi Ken, there was actually one flight that I was doing a full lap of inverted flight. Too bad it wasn’t recorded. I’m still gaining my confidence to do a full lap of inverted flight more often.

As of now, I’m getting used to it and when the plane starts to fly inverted somehow I can have the right reflex does it for me subconsciously.

Very excited for more stunt learning.

[Al Ferraro]

  Nice engine run on the Vector, The Banshee was a little lean, open the needle a couple of clicks.  The Banshee looks like the controls are more sensitive than the Vector, it might be a little tail heavy. Looking good keep posting your progress.
Al

[Joseph Lijoi]

Hi all,

After months of flying practice alone, without any mentor’s presence in person at the handle.
After months of asking some basic/stupid questions and getting inputs as well as how-to, mostly in a text form.
After months of figuring out what’s gone wrong with my planes setup.
I have finally achieved this point, a point where it’s like the entry point to be able to go further and master the rest of the stunt maneuvers.

These 2 videos are dedicated to those who have responded to my questions and helped me. Thank you!
I know it’s still not in perfect shape or size, but I’ll keep flying. Practice makes perfect, doesn’t it?

Lazy 8 practice with Vector 40
https://youtube.com/watch?v=VLzWuCc0ISM&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

I’ll keep you updated with my progress, I will upload new videos again when I make another significant progress.

Lazy 8 practice with Banshee
https://youtube.com/watch?v=w4svMYv-6dU&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

b]Lazy 8 practice with Banshee[/b]
https://youtube.com/watch?v=w4svMYv-6dU&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE



Best,
Kafin Noe’man

I would say that lazy eights are fine to develop a feel. Just make sure that you “fly” the plane and try and make intersections, tops, bottoms and shapes. Also the lazy eight can help you develop a feel for the wind.
Years ago Art Adamisin told me about “s” turns. This is like a half loop that you stretch out inverted until you get uncomfortable. When you get uncomfortable you make another half loop to normal flight, making an elongated “s”. Be conscious of the wind and try not to make the escape turn upwind. The “s” turn was covered in some instructions for a kit or a pamphlet from one of the manufacturers (maybe Sterling or Carl Goldberg) years ago.
I would suggest a different airplane. The Vector or (possibly even the Banshee) is not a stunt trainer. You don’t want an airplane that you are afraid to crash (you will crash). You want a plane that will take damage well and is easier to repair after a crash (you will crash). You want a plane that doesn’t require any trimming variables because at this stage you are learning.
Something like the Brett Buck Skyray 35 20FP (the info is out there somewhere). Read this article by Brett. I think it may be on the Flying Lines News Letter.
The Skyray 35 is a really great design. The wing is self jigging and it is the easiest to build model in its class. Unfortunately the kit may be hard to find. Maybe someone offers a rib set (with the jig tabs on them), and a set of plans.

[Mike Urban]

For me, the big breakthrough came when I was told to stop thinking in terms of up and down, and learn to think in terms of clockwise and counterclockwise. When inverted, up and down are reversed, but clockwise and counterclockwise stay the same. Lazy eights are a great way to master this.

Mike

[Colin McRae]

Lazy 8's for me was a great step to get inverted. Once I was doing a lazy 8 comfortably, I just started to 'stretch out' the second part of the 8 and maybe fly 1/3 lap inverted before going back over, then 1/2 lap inverted before going back over, etc. Then soon I was inverted for 1+ laps. My brain and reflexes started to become familiar with the 'down is up' control when inverted. 

I also have a Banshee and Vector 40. (I surely don't want to crash those as I learn) I agree with others to train on old models you don't mind crashing. I found like 5 old planes I got from a guy very cheap. Cleaned them up a little and got them in the air to train. (Flite Streak, Jr Flite Streak, Ringmaster, Shoestring, etc.) And pretty much crashed each one every time I attempted a new stunt in the pattern.

Results of my 1st attempt at an overhead 8 with my Flite Streak. But just repaired it and it is still part of my pattern training program.  (I am also learning a lot about repair technique, so not all is lost.)

[Kafin Noe’man]

Hi Joseph and Colin,

Thank you for your suggestion.

However, the Banshee is indeed my trainer plane as it has gone through so many crashes and fixes.

That’s why you don’t see that many lazy 8 on the Vector video 












Best,
Kafin

[Dan McEntee]

For me, the big breakthrough came when I was told to stop thinking in terms of up and down, and learn to think in terms of clockwise and counterclockwise. When inverted, up and down are reversed, but clockwise and counterclockwise stay the same. Lazy eights are a great way to master this.

Mike

     The thing is to not think in terms of up and down at all. Think of the model in terms of top and bottom. The airplane ALWAYS has a top and bottom, no matter what position it's in. At the handle , down in the bottom and up is the top. So when you are inverted and you get too low, give it bottom control to bring it higher. When you are flying upright at 45degrees and you want to bring the model down give it "bottom " control. After a while your brain just reacts when upright, because unconsciously you know what to do. When it is inverted is when you focus on "bottom" control and "top" control. When you are diving straight down from a wing over and want to pull out inverted it's down control. If you get confused while flying inverted and just need to "escape" remember to always give it "bottom " control. This will always bring the model back upright, and you will be flying away from the ground while executing it. Repetitive practice is the best way to make progress here. Stick with it!!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Chuck Matheny]

I think a beginner could make better use of his time with a trainer made from coroplast....[the same material as those campaign signs you might see laying around the roadside]
You could show up at the field with a few planes ready to go..except for maybe needing to swap your engine from one plane to the next.
A Cox .049 with a 6 x 3 or a 5 x 3 black "rubber"prop is a pretty durable combo if flown over grass.
Don't forget to bring a can of BRAKECLEEN spray to help clean the engine after a crash.
The idea here is to minimize cost, anxiety and frustration while maximizing the amount of "stick time" you get with each session.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/2a-049-control-line-man-win-coroplast-1757641247

[Colin McRae]

My rookie build kit happened about 2 years ago. It was a Bodak 1/2a kit. Interesting, in the kit instructions it recommended that if you are new to the hobby and never flown, build the kit, but don't even paint it. (meaning that it would most likely head to the ground.) And it did a few times. But was great flying (and rebuilding) experience and at lower cost.

[Kafin Noe’man]

Update:

After getting more confidence to do the lazy eights, and slowly building the much needed muscle memory, I finally dare myself to do a full lap of inverted flying. The initial plan was to only do 1 lap, but somehow I managed to do three full laps of inverted flying. It feels good to finally be able to do this and I really look forward to learning more maneuvers after this.



P.S. The engine run was not what I had wanted to be, I suspect it was also due to some leaking on the tank I found after the practice session.

[Ken Culbertson]

 

Very impressive.  You were guiding that plane.  No over controlling, no jerking it around!  You are gaining some very good basic skills!

Ken

[John Carrodus]

WOOOO HOOOO YOU!

[Colin McRae]

Great work Kafin and looks good.

I too am getting more comfortable flying inverted. I keep it up a little higher when inverted to give me time to react if necessary. I am slowly working on flying closer to the ground and still feel comfortable.

[John Skukalek]

That's really exciting Kafin! Thanks for showing us the video. I bet you can't wait to get back out and fly again.

[Dan McEntee]

Great work Kafin and looks good.

I too am getting more comfortable flying inverted. I keep it up a little higher when inverted to give me time to react if necessary. I am slowly working on flying closer to the ground and still feel comfortable.

   As you move along in learning the pattern, whenever you go out to fly, remember that you only need to fly 6 laps inverted in the full pattern. Now that you are at the point of having some genuine comfort, just fly anywhere from 3 to 6 laps each flight. That will rack up inverted "stick time" pretty quickly. Don't worry too much about getting down to normal level flight height, just get the laps in. Count them out loud to yourself to keep track. I still do that!! Stay ready to bail out of any trouble with "bottom" control. Before too long you will be able to put in 6 laps of solid flight, and then work on getting down to and holding proper altitude. Along the way, you can start adding, one, then two, and then the third outside loops at the end of the inverted lap. When i am working with someone on the beginner pattern, I encourage them to do the outsides from the inverted flight. I think it is easier for a beginner, and they will have one less posture to learn when doing the full pattern. Keep it up!!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

What Dan Said.  The outside loop should be next on your list.  Your pull out from inverted tells me you are ready for it.  Funny Dan mentioned counting.  I was taught to count the laps out loud but that was before electric.  I still do it in competition (I just don't yell) and I also call out the next maneuver.  Don't worry too much about getting down low at this point, that will come but you might start training your brain to recognize 45 degrees without having to think about it.

Keep it up - Ken

[Norm Faith Jr.]

Update:

After getting more confidence to do the lazy eights, and slowly building the much needed muscle memory, I finally dare myself to do a full lap of inverted flying. The initial plan was to only do 1 lap, but somehow I managed to do three full laps of inverted flying. It feels good to finally be able to do this and I really look forward to learning more maneuvers after this.



P.S. The engine run was not what I had wanted to be, I suspect it was also due to some leaking on the tank I found after the practice session.

You did what I was about to "chime in on." Flying inverted (comfortably) is key to achieving the whole pattern. Fly a lot of inverted flight, the more you do the more it will become second nature. I use a technique of rolling my hand clockwise, as I come out of the top of a loop into inverted flight, until the bottom of the handle (down line) is a little higher above horizontal. I was introduced to this technique many years ago by an accomplished flyer who is no longer with us. It works for me, but whatever you are doing to get "upside-down," to level flight, works for you, go for it. Oh yeah! Practice...practice...practice.
Norm

[kevin king]

I just watched the video of you flying inverted laps, and really enjoy watching your progress!