Author Topic: Latest ama magazine (Read 14619 times)

curtis mattikow · « **Reply #100 on:** December 10, 2018, 02:02:03 PM »

They bought a bigass trailer and put in a dozen model flight simulator stations.
Then they drove it to various events around the country like the Red Bull Air Races, Oshkosh, Sun and Fun(yes...we paid for our AMA officials to attend these events, hotels, meals, transportation, per diems) and they let any kid who wanted to try the simulator do it, as long as they signed a sheet of paper. That piece of paper made them an instant AMA member. Poof! A huge number of new "members" to make the numbers look good. How many of them turned into model aviators? Two? Ten?
Seriously...how many junior AMA members are in your family?
Zippo in mine, except my nephew, who flew the simulator once at the WRAM show some years ago and has been on the AMA roster ever since as a Junior Member.

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #101 on:** December 10, 2018, 02:24:34 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on December 10, 2018, 01:18:26 PM

Simulator trailer scam? What is that?

Brett

I would like the back story on that also. I think I remember seeing that at Oshkosh while I was attending on a regular basis. I worked the KidVenture venue control line circles for 16 years straight. One of the things , of many , that I saw evolve at that time was the attitude the AMA and the EAA had towards each other. I started to attend in 2000, and the AMA had just a small booth where the other vendors set up in the metal buildings near the flight line. AeroShell Square it was called then. I always stopped by to talk to Bob Underwood, who is from my area, a great scale builder, flier, leader and generally nice guy. Bob had held several key positions with the AMA through the years and was my ear to the inside, sort of. But the AMA and the EAA generally had no use for each other at that time. The Kidventure was the idea of an EAA executive who was a former Junior National Champ. It drew large crowds, and there were times when group photos were taken that the AMA crew rushed over with banners and such to try and horn in on it. Then as time went on, things changed in both organizations and bot were looking for new blood. Suddenly, they were best buddies. I don't know who needs the other more. The drone thing had just started to catch on and the AMA started to embrace that. We used to fly at the KidVenture circles each evening until dark, but there was no place for the R/C guys to fly, and technically, you should not have been able to fly R/C at an active airport. But, and area at the Pioneer Airport grass strip was set up for guys to fly drones, and park flier type models. It was roughly a 400 foot box, taking into account the then current 400 foot rule. The first night it was open, there were countless infractions of that rule, including some nutcase flying to the other side of the area where I was flying, and buzzing the circle!! I packed up and went over in search of the AMA representative who thought he was in charge. I has some one point him out to me, and I proceeded to tell him what a real cluster F@#%@K this was that was going on. His eyes got as big as saucers when I pointed out infractions of the 400 foot rule that were going on right in front of our eyes, the number of aircraft being flow outside of the boundaries, and not to mention the fact, that it was already 45 minute past the time in which model flying was supposed to have ceased! He asked who I was, I handed him my name badge, and told him I could be his worse nightmare, and asked if he was really trying to ruin the whole thing for all of us!! I asked if he had checked people for AMA membership, like he was supposed to, and he said no. But with that mob, that would have been extremely difficult at best. I can't believe that they turned all those people loose with those things, on an active airport like Whitman Field, and these are the people trying to lead us through the issues of today! The guy was a blithering idiot, and I only wish I could remember his name. I was leaving the next day, I think so I really had nothing to loose but just tried to make myself and my point known. I haven't been back since then, so i don't know if it went anywhere. But that scene was a pure example of current AMA leadership and the character of the people that hey were trying to recruit. There was a follow up article in Model Aviation about the R/C area activities and I sent in an email about my experiences and several corrections to errors in the article, but never heard anything back. Somewhere on the grounds they had a large cage type structure up near the flight line. I never got near there to check it out, but they may have had that trailer set up there. Once they got chummy with the EAA, they no longer had their booth in the hot metal buildings, but had been up graded to a nice, cool air conditioned landing in the museum. I extended an invitation to those guys to come out into the heat, wind and some times rain to do some real work at the KidVenture circles, but only got weird looks and scowls from them! They had simulators set up there also, and had some in the Pioneer Aiport hangers where the rest of KidVenture was laid out. So , yes, I would be interested in the back story also.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Dane Martin · « **Reply #102 on:** December 10, 2018, 03:00:29 PM »

Perhaps I'm a wierd exception. I have several junior members in my family, including both my 7 year old kids. Who, both started competing in CL speed at the age of 4.
I certainly don't know much about the AMA as a financial institute, but I can see those numbers as a possibility.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #103 on:** December 10, 2018, 07:33:45 PM »

Quote from: T.J. Vieira on December 10, 2018, 10:50:37 AM

Brett,

great post! here is something I wrote the other day kinda like what you wrote. but, I'm not sending it because, well, my thoughts tend to wander while writing as you'll see.....

Just came in from the shop and as usual checked on Stunt Hanger. I have read your writing and it makes me feel guilty of not spending more time with the kids. But as today was another miles stone in my life my wife gave me a birthday present. I thanked her said it is a great present as my newest grand daughter likes to go in the back yard with the dogs and I. She likes to run and she gets the dog balls and brings them to me. Started just trying to teach her to play catch with her standing right in front of me. She is 3 years old. Now she brings the ball and tells me to throw it so she can chase it. Now with the new birthday present maybe I can teach how to throw it and retrieve it. See picture.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #104 on:** December 10, 2018, 07:38:22 PM »

Curtis' and Dan's replies just above (101 and 102) are spot on and prove some of the exact thoughts and impressions I've had of the AMA for quite a long time now (years). The "modern" AMA has solidly reached the point of being totally clueless to what originally created their very existence. They have also lost all sight or ambition of promoting or representing their historical background of real aeromodeling. Anymore, and at this point, it is a complete waste of time (and money) for anyone here to have anything to do with them.

Dane Martin · « **Reply #105 on:** December 10, 2018, 09:21:04 PM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on December 10, 2018, 07:38:22 PM

Anymore, and at this point, it is a complete waste of time (and money) for anyone here to have anything to do with them.

Yes, but those of us who still travel around the country to compete still need to be members

mike londke · « **Reply #106 on:** December 10, 2018, 10:11:32 PM »

I have 1 Jr. (Samuel) that many of you know. We attended 7 contests and 1 fun fly in 2018. We both flew stunt/combat at all of them. AMA is a requirement, so as long as there are contests for us to go to we'll continue to be AMA members. I do fear a day when CL participation dwindles and contests just can't be run or supported. For now I'm just happy for the contests we do have and I get to fly in them with my kid. When the contests are all gone my AMA membership will go too.

Chuck_Smith · « **Reply #107 on:** December 11, 2018, 04:53:27 AM »

I guess what I'd like is to have the AMA share their mission and vision with the membership. A far as a sanctioning body for events they do a decent job. But promoting model aviation? I'm not sure they really understand what "modeling" is. Mail-ordering a RTF foamie?

The technology has made "Toy" R/C airplanes a reality. Just like R/C cars and boats, when they became so available they became toys instead of hobby equipment the need for ROAR, etc., disappeared.

It appears the AMA expects to make a living off of people who buy toys.

Chuck

Tom Vieira · « **Reply #108 on:** December 11, 2018, 05:57:01 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on December 10, 2018, 07:33:45 PM

Just came in from the shop and as usual checked on Stunt Hanger. I have read your writing and it makes me feel guilty of not spending more time with the kids. But as today was another miles stone in my life my wife gave me a birthday present. I thanked her said it is a great present as my newest grand daughter likes to go in the back yard with the dogs and I. She likes to run and she gets the dog balls and brings them to me. Started just trying to teach her to play catch with her standing right in front of me. She is 3 years old. Now she brings the ball and tells me to throw it so she can chase it. Now with the new birthday present maybe I can teach how to throw it and retrieve it. See picture.

John, that's great! I remember my former stepson at that age, and him arguing with my beagle to give him the ball

build a guillows FF bird and have her chase after that!

I have 2 junior members in my family (niece and nephew)... but one has bailed I think. oh well... if my other nephews lived closer, I know at least one of them would be on this like a fat kid on cake! unfotunatly, there is no CL activity that I can tell of near them (all RC), and their parent's are a little lacking in the technical area, which makes them a bit gun shy on the idea.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #109 on:** December 11, 2018, 09:22:31 AM »

Quote from: Chuck_Smith on December 11, 2018, 04:53:27 AM

I guess what I'd like is to have the AMA share their mission and vision with the membership. A far as a sanctioning body for events they do a decent job. But promoting model aviation? I'm not sure they really understand what "modeling" is. Mail-ordering a RTF foamie?

The technology has made "Toy" R/C airplanes a reality. Just like R/C cars and boats, when they became so available they became toys instead of hobby equipment the need for ROAR, etc., disappeared.

It appears the AMA expects to make a living off of people who buy toys.

I think they have been sharing that vision, very clearly, with all concerned, for a very long time. Before drones, it was park fliers, and before park fliers, it was RC ARFs wall-to-wall. This has been going on since at least the mid-80's, and I don't think they could have been any more clear about it. As soon as RC became a practical and reliable system in the early -mid 70's, ARFs and RTF built at what we would consider slave wages in slave conditions in China were pretty much inevitable.

If they were running a business, they would be doing exactly the right thing, and serving their market very well. That's how they view themselves, and are acting accordingly, with a few bones tossed out to support the tiny competition contingent (so far...). Once the AMA voters (the majority of whom don't understand any other concept, either) let this start, it was self-fulfilling and essentially impossible to reverse with elections.

This happened a very long time ago, and it has bumbled along with acceptable results until drones came along, because it was perfectly obvious that *drones are going to get regulated*, probably to the point of destruction. That was never a realistic possibility with RC ARFs or park fliers, but is a metaphysical certainty with FPV and drones.

That is the part they seem to be missing, or even worse, they may be delusional enough or greedy enough to risk the destruction of the entire organization on the theory that since they are the 800-lb gorilla, they can control what happens and make it work out OK. They jump on the drone fad, manipulate Congress and the FAA to put them as the middlemen, they sell ads and get kickbacks from the manufacturers, and make the AMA the biggest aviation-related organization in the world. New leather chairs for the conference room, bigger travel per diem to fly to Lausanne, Chad Budreau is the biggest of the big shots!

Me/you/a lot of us here can see why this isn't going to work. But they are more-or-less committed to it at this point, even if they realized it, they can't turn back now- because if they stop and try to reverse course, they are completely out in the cold. Same thing if we tried to take the maybe 10,000 people we would consider to be true modelers and break away.

But you cannot say they haven't been perfectly clear about how they planned to proceed, it's been stated repeatedly. I think we are merely noting that gorillas are on the endangered species list...

Brett

Shug Emery · « **Reply #110 on:** December 11, 2018, 09:45:32 AM »

I join the AMA as I compete in a competition or two yearly. So need to be a member. Only reason for me.
Get the mag and read what interests me. Mainly CL Stunt section.
Peruse while pooping like all my subscriptions. Look at color schemes. Battery stuff.
Then into recycling.
Doesn't get me too worked up or anything.
Quads are the rage. So it goes.
Shug

Brett Buck · « **Reply #111 on:** December 11, 2018, 09:53:28 AM »

Quote from: curtis mattikow on December 10, 2018, 02:02:03 PM

They bought a bigass trailer and put in a dozen model flight simulator stations.
Then they drove it to various events around the country like the Red Bull Air Races, Oshkosh, Sun and Fun(yes...we paid for our AMA officials to attend these events, hotels, meals, transportation, per diems) and they let any kid who wanted to try the simulator do it, as long as they signed a sheet of paper. That piece of paper made them an instant AMA member. Poof! A huge number of new "members" to make the numbers look good. How many of them turned into model aviators? Two? Ten?

Interesting. I suspect no one is up in arms about it because they had never heard about it, either.

I wonder if anyone asked their parents or informed them of the true nature of what they were signing up for? Kids cannot enter into contracts (free or not) on their own accord. Highly scammy even if it's legal.

Brett

curtis mattikow · « **Reply #112 on:** December 11, 2018, 12:34:17 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on December 11, 2018, 09:53:28 AM

Interesting. I suspect no one is up in arms about it because they had never heard about it, either.

I wonder if anyone asked their parents or informed them of the true nature of what they were signing up for? Kids cannot enter into contracts (free or not) on their own accord. Highly scammy even if it's legal.

Brett
[/quotem ]
I'm sure it's legal, and it's no harm to the kid, he just gets his name on a list.
But it's deceptive to the membership and to government.
Obviously, if I thought AMA was serving my needs, I'd have no problem with it.
As it is...I really have no problem with it, except it shows a mentality towards honesty and the membership I do not really care for.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #113 on:** December 11, 2018, 07:35:13 PM »

Quote from: Dane Martin on December 10, 2018, 09:21:04 PM

Yes, but those of us who still travel around the country to compete still need to be members

Yep, I know, I get it and it's (been) a valid point. I'm also thinking though that it's well past time for that same group (the avid competitors) to just dump the AMA altogether and find their own way. I don't really feel like think the AMA "insurance" argument carries much weight either.

Something I've thought about a few times recently, in a nutshell, is this...

Practically 99% of all contests are planned, organized and ran by volunteers, most of whom are already PAMPA members. There has to be a way to continue these same contests without any AMA involvement, whether it be regionals, nationals, or any other small local contest in between.
As a hypothetical example, these same volunteers could likely reorganize and start right at the top with boycotting and replacing the AMA NATS. I'm just picking the "big one" here as "Example A" but the idea would be relative to any contest. Band together and blow off going to Muncie in July, find a new location, and start a "PAMPANATS". Heck, maybe even use the same dates as the AMA event. Once organized a "PAMPANATS" event could even go back to moving the venue annually, just like the good 'ol days. No offense to any past AMA winners, their place in history is already documented, but the way things have evolved I'd be much more proud of a "PAMPANATS" trophy than anything that says AMA on it.
Granted, it's a whole bunch of work to organize and run a contest. I have to think though that bottom line it wouldn't take much (if any) more effort to continue and hold most existing contests without the AMA. For the most part it would be all the same people doing all the same work, just without "bothering" the AMA. I'm not necessarily intending to set this idea on PAMPA's plate either, I'm just using them as the example since it seems they might be the most obvious candidate for any such reorganization. Whatever or whoever might take the idea on, there has to be a way.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #114 on:** December 11, 2018, 08:23:07 PM »

PAMPANATS. Sounds like a breakfast cereal. I don't think we would be successful and, as a long time PAMPA member I don't think we have anyone who really wants the headaches of forming a new cover group. We already run the event. It is that trip to Muncie that seems to be the issue. Maybe something could be done about that. I don't have any ideas.

Ken

wwwarbird · « **Reply #115 on:** December 11, 2018, 08:48:39 PM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on December 11, 2018, 08:23:07 PM

We already run the event. It is that trip to Muncie that seems to be the issue. Maybe something could be done about that. I don't have any ideas.

Ken

That's the idea Ken, same type of event, with the same (usual) people organizing and running it, at a venue determined by the organizers, just without AMA involvement.

I know I don't have every answer, just hoping to plant some sort of seed. Respectfully folks, not looking to start any arguments either, simply offering some thoughts and ideas for what is a long overdue change. It's doable. This whole thing should be running deeper than everyone just continuing to repeat and complain about the lack of C/L coverage in the AMA's rag, that's something that's definitely not going to change. Besides, PAMPA's magazine already kicks their ass.

Dave Harmon · « **Reply #116 on:** December 11, 2018, 09:33:59 PM »

It's all about liability.
The site owner is never going to allow contestants without an AMA style insurance.

As far as going to Muncie.....I have never been there and I ain't going.
PAMPA...the C/L SIG can run their own NATS at the location of it's choice.
It was just announced by NSRCA......the Pattern SIG....that the 2019 NATS are going to be held for the second year in a row at Blytheville, AR.
I have not been there either but I understand it is a deactivated USAF base and the accommodations and conditions were excellent.
Believe me....if the pattern guys can do it....PAMPA can do it too.

In fact....Pattern flyers have a mass of talented guys....some of them are really interested in upper level C/L flying.
Perhaps PAMPA can snag a few more of them.

Tony Drago · « **Reply #117 on:** December 11, 2018, 09:52:01 PM »

"It's all about liability.
The site owner is never going to allow contestants without an AMA style insurance."

If the site owner was truly aware of how the so called AMA insurance worked and how hard it is to get a pay out.
They would most likely never allow a contest and or have people fly to begin with on said property.
The AMA insurance is just lip service written down on paper. Saying one has to jump through all are hoops then sew us to get the claim paid.
Insurance company's make their/save money by not paying out claims or paying out as little as possible.

Dan Berry · « **Reply #118 on:** December 11, 2018, 09:55:42 PM »

Quote from: Tony Drago on December 11, 2018, 09:52:01 PM

"It's all about liability.
The site owner is never going to allow contestants without an AMA style insurance."

If the site owner was truly aware of how the so called AMA insurance worked and how hard it is to get a pay out.
They would most likely never allow a contest and or have people fly to begin with on said property.
The AMA insurance is just lip service written down on paper. Saying one has to jump through all are hoops then sew us to get the claim paid.
Insurance company's make their/save money by not paying out claims or paying out as little as possible.

Well, let's not tell them about it here.

Dave Harmon · « **Reply #119 on:** December 11, 2018, 10:04:09 PM »

Quote from: Tony Drago on December 11, 2018, 09:52:01 PM

"It's all about liability.
The site owner is never going to allow contestants without an AMA style insurance."

If the site owner was truly aware of how the so called AMA insurance worked and how hard it is to get a pay out.
They would most likely never allow a contest and or have people fly to begin with on said property.
The AMA insurance is just lip service written down on paper. Saying one has to jump through all are hoops then sew us to get the claim paid.
Insurance company's make their/save money by not paying out claims or paying out as little as possible.

Maybe.....but paying out was not what we were talking about.....
I realize posing straw man arguments to help justify not having AMA is one thing that can be done.....but.....no one is gonna enter a contest without AMA.
And that is just the way it is....no matter what we say either way.

Tom Vieira · « **Reply #120 on:** December 12, 2018, 06:21:59 AM »

I see rumblings like this from more than just PAMPA style guys.... maybe all of CL together get together and play nice at their own event...?

Brett Buck · « **Reply #121 on:** December 12, 2018, 10:07:53 AM »

Quote from: T.J. Vieira on December 12, 2018, 06:21:59 AM

I see rumblings like this from more than just PAMPA style guys.... maybe all of CL together get together and play nice at their own event...?

We already have events like that, like the Northwest and Southwest Regionals. There appears to be nothing to prevent anyone else from doing the same elsewhere, aside from the lack of will to do it.

Brett

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #122 on:** December 12, 2018, 10:25:19 AM »

Is there any proof that "AMA getting kickbacks from manufacturers"?

Tom Vieira · « **Reply #123 on:** December 12, 2018, 10:47:26 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on December 12, 2018, 10:07:53 AM

We already have events like that, like the Northwest and Southwest Regionals. There appears to be nothing to prevent anyone else from doing the same elsewhere, aside from the lack of will to do it.

Brett

only saying that as it seemed like it was getting PAMPA specific

one big happy family!

curtis mattikow · « **Reply #124 on:** December 12, 2018, 11:26:38 AM »

Quote from: Tony Drago on December 11, 2018, 09:52:01 PM

"It's all about liability.
The site owner is never going to allow contestants without an AMA style insurance."

If the site owner was truly aware of how the so called AMA insurance worked and how hard it is to get a pay out.
They would most likely never allow a contest and or have people fly to begin with on said property.
The AMA insurance is just lip service written down on paper. Saying one has to jump through all are hoops then sew us to get the claim paid.
Insurance company's make their/save money by not paying out claims or paying out as little as possible.

That’s not really true. AMA pays. And the deductible is high, most claims are paid by ama directly, only big ones hit the insurance company. But pay they do. And most big claims involve general liability, like someone falling off a log, rather than actual model Airplane incidents.
I’m no ama fan but I need to be fair.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #125 on:** December 12, 2018, 03:49:06 PM »

A PAMPANATS in my 2 cents worth would not have the history or prestige of the AMA National Control Line Precision Aerobatics Open & Walker trophy. I've been to the east coast and would love to go to a west coast Nationals. Oh I forgot about the Tri-Cities NATS.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #126 on:** December 12, 2018, 07:21:25 PM »

Quote from: FLOYD CARTER on December 12, 2018, 10:25:19 AM

Is there any proof that "AMA getting kickbacks from manufacturers"?

No, aside from advertising. I was projecting a future condition.

Brett

wwwarbird · « **Reply #127 on:** December 12, 2018, 07:41:13 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on December 12, 2018, 03:49:06 PM

A PAMPANATS in my 2 cents worth would not have the history or prestige of the AMA National Control Line Precision Aerobatics Open & Walker trophy.

It would if, like I'm suggesting, there were no more C/L AMA NATS and the "PAMPANATS" were to replace it as the new top national event.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #128 on:** December 12, 2018, 07:45:29 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on December 12, 2018, 10:07:53 AM

We already have events like that, like the Northwest and Southwest Regionals. There appears to be nothing to prevent anyone else from doing the same elsewhere, aside from the lack of will to do it.

Brett

Yep, it's all doable, if there could ever be a collective effort to reorganize and tell the AMA to go #@*% themselves.

Bill Ervin · « **Reply #129 on:** December 12, 2018, 08:02:44 PM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on December 12, 2018, 07:41:13 PM

It would if, like I'm suggesting, there were no more C/L AMA NATS and the "PAMPANATS" were to replace it as the new top national event.

Pssst, if we’re gonna secede from the Union don’t forget to grab that “little” trophy from them. Don’t know how difficult/easy that might be but I would guess it’s kind of important.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #130 on:** December 12, 2018, 08:15:43 PM »

Quote from: Bill Ervin on December 12, 2018, 08:02:44 PM

Pssst, if we’re gonna secede from the Union don’t forget to grab that “little” trophy from them. Don’t know how difficult/easy that might be but I would guess it’s kind of important.

Grab the trophy? If you mean an AMA trophy or trophies they can keep them. Along with the "new era" would come all new trophies.

Trostle · « **Reply #131 on:** December 13, 2018, 12:58:52 AM »

Quote from: Bill Ervin on December 12, 2018, 08:02:44 PM

Pssst, if we’re gonna secede from the Union don’t forget to grab that “little” trophy from them. Don’t know how difficult/easy that might be but I would guess it’s kind of important.

If you are talking about the Walker Cup, there is a story. The Walker Cup belongs to the AMA as do many other perpetual trophies that the AMA holds. This is not to mean that other SIG's might have their own perpetual trophies that they sponsor with no arrangements or conditions with the AMA. Generally, the AMA keeps their perpetual trophies and holds them in the AMA museum in Muncie. PAMPA has an agreement with the AMA that the Walker Cup will be allowed to be held by the recipient for the year he holds the title of National Stunt Champion. The agreement is that the trophy will be maintained in good order. By the time PAMPA started to manage the stunt event at the Nats in 1974, the Walker Cup was not in good shape. Many of it parts were missing. It was barely recognizable as to what it was. When Al Rabe won the cup in 1973, he found the company that made the original trophy and that they still had the specifications for it. Al had the trophy totally restored at his own expense to its original condition and made a case to help ensure its safe transportation. Since then, people on the West Coast made arrangements to add to the base to accommodate the names that are being added to it each year. The work was done well and is in keeping with the overall appearance of the trophy. It still looks the same, it just now has a larger base. The Walker Cup is in far better shape since PAMPA took responsibility for it.

Any discussion of a so called PAMPA Nats really does not make any much sense. We have a Nats run by PAMPA every year. It just so happens that it is now always in Muncie.

Keith

curtis mattikow · « **Reply #132 on:** December 13, 2018, 06:13:22 AM »

Quote from: Trostle on December 13, 2018, 12:58:52 AM

If you are talking about the Walker Cup, there is a story. The Walker Cup belongs to the AMA as do many other perpetual trophies that the AMA holds. This is not to mean that other SIG's might have their own perpetual trophies that they sponsor with no arrangements or conditions with the AMA. Generally, the AMA keeps their perpetual trophies and holds them in the AMA museum in Muncie. PAMPA has an agreement with the AMA that the Walker Cup will be allowed to be held by the recipient for the year he holds the title of National Stunt Champion. The agreement is that the trophy will be maintained in good order. By the time PAMPA started to manage the stunt event at the Nats in 1974, the Walker Cup was not in good shape. Many of it parts were missing. It was barely recognizable as to what it was. When Al Rabe won the cup in 1973, he found the company that made the original trophy still had the specifications for it. Al had the trophy totally restored at his own expense to its original condition and made a case to help ensure its safe transportation. Since then, people on the West Coast made arrangements to add to the base to accommodate the names that are being added to it each year. The work was done well and is in keeping with the overall appearance of the trophy. It still looks the same, it just now has a larger base. The Walker Cup is in far better shape since PAMPA took responsibility for it.

Any discussion of a so called PAMPA Nats really does not any much sense. We have a Nats run by PAMPA every year. It just so happens that it is now always in Muncie.

Keith

Quote from: Trostle on December 13, 2018, 12:58:52 AM

If you are talking about the Walker Cup, there is a story. The Walker Cup belongs to the AMA as do many other perpetual trophies that the AMA holds. This is not to mean that other SIG's might have their own perpetual trophies that they sponsor with no arrangements or conditions with the AMA. Generally, the AMA keeps their perpetual trophies and holds them in the AMA museum in Muncie. PAMPA has an agreement with the AMA that the Walker Cup will be allowed to be held by the recipient for the year he holds the title of National Stunt Champion. The agreement is that the trophy will be maintained in good order. By the time PAMPA started to manage the stunt event at the Nats in 1974, the Walker Cup was not in good shape. Many of it parts were missing. It was barely recognizable as to what it was. When Al Rabe won the cup in 1973, he found the company that made the original trophy still had the specifications for it. Al had the trophy totally restored at his own expense to its original condition and made a case to help ensure its safe transportation. Since then, people on the West Coast made arrangements to add to the base to accommodate the names that are being added to it each year. The work was done well and is in keeping with the overall appearance of the trophy. It still looks the same, it just now has a larger base. The Walker Cup is in far better shape since PAMPA took responsibility for it.

Any discussion of a so called PAMPA Nats really does not any much sense. We have a Nats run by PAMPA every year. It just so happens that it is now always in Muncie.

Keith

Beautiful story.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #133 on:** December 13, 2018, 07:31:47 AM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on December 12, 2018, 08:15:43 PM

Grab the trophy? If you mean an AMA trophy or trophies they can keep them. Along with the "new era" would come all new trophies.

I am quite sure that the folks who are still alive that have their names on that trophy would disagree.

Ken

John Gluth · « **Reply #134 on:** December 13, 2018, 07:52:47 PM »

Quote from: curtis mattikow on December 05, 2018, 04:11:42 PM

Don't worry, that drone is going to get flown ONCE and then get tossed in the corner of the garage along with the Bread Maker his wife bought the year before and the Bowflex execise machine he used twice. Drones, at least the hobby types, don't have any staying power, we are already far onto the backside of the power curve here, they are going the way of the Pet Rock.

Only thing Multirotor toys have even slightly related to modeling is radio control, period. About 2-3 years back the rack in Barnes and Noble displayed several monthly drone market magazines. Currently I couldn't find a single one. That only confirmed my prediction that the entire detour was a fad. Second thought came to me was, then AMA president endearing quads as the future of model aviation.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #135 on:** December 13, 2018, 08:26:33 PM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on December 13, 2018, 07:31:47 AM

I am quite sure that the folks who are still alive that have their names on that trophy would disagree.

Ken

Disagree with what? Their names are there and the history is documented, it's not like any of it would be erased in any way.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #136 on:** December 13, 2018, 08:43:50 PM »

Quote from: Trostle on December 13, 2018, 12:58:52 AM

Any discussion of a so called PAMPA Nats really does not make any much sense. We have a Nats run by PAMPA every year. It just so happens that it is now always in Muncie.

Keith

The whole point with my proposition is a complete separation from any AMA involvement with any of our C/L activities. I'm only using the NATS as an example of my idea, and "PAMPANATS" as a hypothetical contest name for the idea, explained in my reply #114. It's certainly a tall order, but could be done.

BTW, that's an excellent story about Al's work with the trophy, a VERY honorable gesture.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #137 on:** December 14, 2018, 12:07:39 AM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on December 13, 2018, 08:43:50 PM

The whole point with my proposition is a complete separation from any AMA involvement with any of our C/L activities. I'm only using the NATS as an example of my idea, and "PAMPANATS" as a hypothetical contest name for the idea, explained in my reply #114. It's certainly a tall order, but could be done.

BTW, that's an excellent story about Al's work with the trophy, a VERY honorable gesture.

I still am at a loss to see what we would gain by breaking away. PAMPA already runs the NATS and for that matter the entire "event". I am pretty pissed at the AMA too for totally botching the FAA negotiations and losing my AMA number and it would be nice to see more C/L in the magazine but how would any of that be better if we separated? It would be the same rat race, just a different rat.

Ken

EddyR · « **Reply #138 on:** December 14, 2018, 05:52:54 AM »

Every few months someone brings up this same trite about the AMA magazine. Then they are so surprised that people react.
The insurance is cheap for what you are getting. For a small group that has no interest outside its membership it is doubtful anyone would
insure such a unsafe sport. It looks unsafe to a outsider. We have all heard the question what if someone gets hit by that plane?
With the way the FAA is now I dough anyone would offer insurance that would be affordable.
So you are mad at the AMA If you complain enough maybe they will drop coverage of all CL events

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #139 on:** December 14, 2018, 12:24:21 PM »

I quit flying R/C, and resigned from our club, when they started flying big planes with chain-saw motors.

I didn't want my name on any club roster when one of those big planes killed some spectator, or trashed someone's car.

Also, I was protecting my own hide at the flying field.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #140 on:** December 14, 2018, 01:12:57 PM »

Quote from: FLOYD CARTER on December 14, 2018, 12:24:21 PM

I quit flying R/C, and resigned from our club, when they started flying big planes with chain-saw motors.

I didn't want my name on any club roster when one of those big planes killed some spectator, or trashed someone's car.

Also, I was protecting my own hide at the flying field.

I quit RC when a bad battery crashed my heavily ballasted unlimited sailplane on an LSF Cross Country. It drifted about 1/2 mile into a residential area (well trimmed) and eventually spiraled in from at least 500'. It missed hitting a sleeping sunbather by about 5'. I was 1/2 a rotation from perhaps killing someone. I didn't fly anything again, including CL for over 30 years.

Those huge scale jobs, especially the jets, are a lawsuit looking for a place to happen.

Ken

curtis mattikow · « **Reply #141 on:** December 14, 2018, 03:36:54 PM »

Quote from: FLOYD CARTER on December 14, 2018, 12:24:21 PM

I quit flying R/C, and resigned from our club, when they started flying big planes with chain-saw motors.

I didn't want my name on any club roster when one of those big planes killed some spectator, or trashed someone's car.

Also, I was protecting my own hide at the flying field.

You would THINK the big models posed the biggest risk, but it has not turned out that way. Most injuries(and the few deaths) involved ordinary-sized models. Go figure. Just not that many large models.

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #142 on:** December 14, 2018, 05:55:25 PM »

Quote from: EddyR on December 14, 2018, 05:52:54 AM

Every few months someone brings up this same trite about the AMA magazine. Then they are so surprised that people react.
The insurance is cheap for what you are getting. For a small group that has no interest outside its membership it is doubtful anyone would
insure such a unsafe sport. It looks unsafe to a outsider. We have all heard the question what if someone gets hit by that plane?
With the way the FAA is now I dough anyone would offer insurance that would be affordable.
So you are mad at the AMA If you complain enough maybe they will drop coverage of all CL events

I'm not really sure what you are insinuating but this is by no means "trite".
In fact, I'm not really sure about the meaning of your post.
An unsafe sport? Take a look at football, hockey, sky diving and the like, where injuries are just "part of the game".
In model aviation, the injuries are caused by carelessness. And, they are, in most cases very minor, especially in Control Line flying.
Don't believe me? Look on some of the youtube RC crash videos and watch the carnage. When an RC pilot loses control, his aircraft becomes an unguided missile. I've seen multi-thousand dollar jets crash and start fires. Imagine one crashing into a crowd.
Our planes don't go free-flight.
Our sector of the sport is by no means unsafe - unless you consider an occasional cut finger or minor burn a big issue.

My 2 cents, Bob Z.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #143 on:** December 14, 2018, 06:43:45 PM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on December 14, 2018, 12:07:39 AM

I still am at a loss to see what we would gain by breaking away. PAMPA already runs the NATS and for that matter the entire "event". I am pretty pissed at the AMA too for totally botching the FAA negotiations and losing my AMA number and it would be nice to see more C/L in the magazine but how would any of that be better if we separated? It would be the same rat race, just a different rat.

Ken

SELF PRIDE. In no longer giving the AMA your money, and no longer subscribing to an organization that has completely lost touch and could care less about you or your hobby.

Even though it's a small amount of money each year, it's the POINT that they are way past done being any real benefit and are not, and won't be, making any moves in that direction. This whole thing should mean way more than just the continued gripe about the lack of C/L coverage in their crap magazine. As I've already repeated, I'm only using the NATS event as an example of what could be done with any and all organized C/L activities. And yes, we could consider it the same "rat race", but the idea is that the "different rats" would be the right people with the right vision, going ahead.

Anyone here who didn't take AMA President Brownhole's proclaiming drones/quads as "the future of Model Aviation" as a complete insult should be banding together and reorganizing, flipping the AMA the bird, and looking for a better organization to belong to.

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #144 on:** December 14, 2018, 07:49:17 PM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on December 14, 2018, 06:43:45 PM

SELF PRIDE. In no longer giving the AMA your money, and no longer subscribing to an organization that has completely lost touch and could care less about you or your hobby.

Even though it's a small amount of money each year, it's the POINT that they are way past done being any real benefit and are not, and won't be, making any moves in that direction. This whole thing should mean way more than just the continued gripe about the lack of C/L coverage in their crap magazine. As I've already repeated, I'm only using the NATS event as an example of what could be done with any and all organized C/L activities. And yes, we could consider it the same "rat race", but the idea is that the "different rats" would be the right people with the right vision, going ahead.

Anyone here who didn't take AMA President Brownhole's proclaiming drones/quads as "the future of Model Aviation" as a complete insult should be banding together and reorganizing, flipping the AMA the bird, and looking for a better organization to belong to.

Well said, Wayne!

wwwarbird · « **Reply #145 on:** December 14, 2018, 08:18:16 PM »

At least somebody gets it, thank you Robert.

John Lindberg · « **Reply #146 on:** December 20, 2018, 08:22:57 AM »

Anyone see the front cover of Model Aviation with Will Davis on the front cover?

john e. holliday · « **Reply #147 on:** December 20, 2018, 11:53:32 AM »

As I read through all this again, we have for gotten that there are people that fly other events besides stunt at the NATS. At least at the last NATS I attended. I miss the NATS because of the fellowship of the modelers in all the facets of competition. Some one mentioned RC Pattern relocating from Muncie, but they are still sanctioned by the AMA. Before the new radios the RC events were scheduled on separate days or frequencies set so there was no interference during flying of the events. RC has so many events that they can't do it in one or two weeks. it takes most of the summer. The indoor guys I don't believe have ever had a NATS in Muncie, so they fly else where.

I think some of the guys complaining on here have never attended a NATS even when they were moved around the country. If I were a billionaire I would try to get the people together and find a site to hols a CL NATS at different locations, of course it would be with an AMA sanction. The SIGs have a hard time now getting people to come to Muncie and help. AMA used to give a small pittance for those that volunteered to help but not any more. They just provide a site/facilities for the different events. I've helped with racing and carrier events and know how hard it is to get help just to come. I see now and it happened at last few racing and carrier NATS that contestants had to help time and count laps. The stunt fraternity might be able to pull off a Precision Aerobatic Control Line NATS, but I don't think the other CL events could do it.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #148 on:** December 20, 2018, 03:17:58 PM »

I have come around to the conclusion that no matter where we plant the NATS, somebody is going to have to drive at least 4 days and stay out of town another 4-5 just to compete with somebody that lives across the street from the contest. There is virtually nothing we can do to make it "fair" for everybody so, I propose that we make it fair for me and relocate the NATS to Dallas so that I don't have to drive to Muncie next year.

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #149 on:** December 20, 2018, 05:22:40 PM »

It really doesn't bother me that our NATS is far, far away from me in Muncie. It is called "National" only because everyone is invited, and not because only the top flyers are allowed to participate. In fact, the skill level at the NATS is no different than the skill level at most regional contests. (and "regional", by definition, is closer).

Author Topic: Latest ama magazine (Read 14619 times)

Tom Vieira

Tom Vieira

Tom Vieira

John Gluth