Starting point for an over head 8?

[Paul Taylor]

What direction should the wind be when starting a overhead 8?

[James Lee]

Face straight into the wind and bring the plane straight up in front of you...  and then try to remember where that is with no reference points....   Tough manuever to do well!!!
Jim

[Paul Smith]

The wind can be any place it wants to be.

It's good practice, in my humble opinion, to think of the overhead eight as a wingover with a four loops in the middle of it.

[Shultzie]

Face straight into the wind and bring the plane straight up in front of you...  and then try to remember where that is with no reference points....   Tough manuever to do well!!!
Jim

Especially while practicing entering the overhead 8!!! On that first turn straight into the wind....
PRACTICE FIRST CUTTING THAT FIRST CORNER-----SLIGHTLY TO THE RIGHT OF DOWNWIND DEAD CENTER---
Over the years...I have seen about a kajillon and one errors....of flyers MISSING that all important DEAD CENTER...and nothing looks worse than a model that is "crabbing on its way across the top of the circle and then crabbing its way down the other side after the overhead entrance downwind center has been MISSED!
NOTHING SPOILS AN OVER HEAD QUICKER..than MISSING THAT CENTER POINT over the top of the circle.
ALSO most of the overhead 8's that you see today...are flown with oversized loops.
Nothing spoils a beautiful overhead 8 faster than making those loops oversized....and first and foremost...MISSING THE CENTER POINT OF THE WIND ON ENTRY!
Practice, practice...but no matter how much you practice...practice with that GOAL IN MIND THAT YOU MUST FIRST...LEARN EXACTLY WHERE THE WIND DIRECTION IS COMING FROM...REMEMBERING THAT WIND (from any direction)NEVER TRAVELS A STRAIGHT LINE  and no matter how well U learn to fly that overhead...if you do not GET A FEEL FOR WIND DIRECTION'S TEENIEST CHANGES IN DIRECTION!
Nothing spoils an overhead 8 faster than squirrrrrrrrrly wind patterns..
Ha! LOOK WHO'S TALKING HERE...daaaaa? Those that do...do and those that never could or should------TEACH! 

[John Miller]

In the PAMPA pattern, The opening into the overhead 8 is most often started with a vertical climb, directly up wind as if starting a reverse wingover. This positioning will give the best use of, and benefits from the wind. Other possitionings, though sometimes used, can have issues with the wind, and the judges perception, esp. if the judges are not directly up wind for the manuever.

[Shultzie]

RIGHT ON!!! JOHN!!!!
NOTHING IS WORSE THAN "LAZY-FOOTED JUDGES....WHO SHOULD KNOW EXACTLY WHERE UP WIND SHOULD BE AT ALL TIMES.

I HAVE NEVER ADVOCATED JUDGES THAT EVEN REMOTELY THINK THEY SHOULD STAND LIKE RIDGID STICKS? NOTHING SAYS MORE THAN "I JUST DON'T GIVE A RIPP ABOUT JUDGING....TO JUDGES WHO THINK THAT WE SHOULD BEND TO THEIR LAZY FLAT FOOTED UNABLILTY TO 'MOVE TO THE FLOW OF THE WIND!"
BAD BAD BADDAD DON!!!!

[Paul Taylor]

OK,
So if I read this right, I pull up nose into the wind?
Top of the circle do an inside over my back, then back to center and do a outside.

Jump for joy and then try for two in a row.

Paul

[Phil Coopy]

Enter a wingover facing the wind, and at the top of the wingover, start your first inside loop, looping to your right, when you finish the inside loop back at the top of the circle, immediately start an outside loop going to your left, when this loop is finished, again at the top ofthe circle, repeat the loops, inside on the right ans outside on the left..  When you have finished  this second "8" exit as though you were completing the original wingover.

Phil

[Steve Helmick]

Foot placement is real important for the OH8. Get your feet planted so your body will square to the upwind side of the circle (where Judges should be). Use the Judges for a marker for the pullup. Keep your feet planted until you are done with the last outside and spin on one foot to follow the exit half wingover to the pullout. Distance between your feet should be a comfortable amount, as it will help you bend over backwards. About 2' works for me.

I tend to disagree with Don, on the Judges moving around. The flier should signal to the Judges where he will do his next trick, and then they should move only when so directed. What if the Judges move to the wrong spot? I think the flier would take a hit on points, and would have a very good reason to complain. If the flier can't be bothered to signal, why should the Judges move? I understand that the latest rules prevent the Judges from moving more than 1/8 circle during a flight, OBTW.  Steve

[Bill Little]

OK,
So if I read this right, I pull up nose into the wind?
Top of the circle do an inside over my back, then back to center and do a outside.

Jump for joy and then try for two in a row.

Paul

Hi Paul,

The "loops" should be to your right and left as you face into the wind, with the one to the "right" being an inside loop and the "first" one.

Unless you have turned sideways, they will not be over your back or in front of you, but over your right and left shoulder.

Bill <><

[phil c]

One additional tweak you can add, which I found on the Vic Stunt site from AUS.  After you pull up, facing the wind and start the inside loop, pivot your body while doing the loop, and then do the outside loop, and then the second eight.  And be sure you swing your arm well behind your head during the loops, so they stay overhead and don't end up in front of you.  Turning around during the first loop gets you through an awkward spot while the plane is up high.  Trying to spin around  while the plane is diving down to the ground is really hard to do gracefully.  Even though it ain't supposed to be scored, making the pullout low and smooth impresses.

[Shultzie]

I tend to disagree with Don, on the Judges moving around. The flier should signal to the Judges where he will do his next trick, and then they should move only when so directed. What if the Judges move to the wrong spot? I think the flier would take a hit on points, and would have a very good reason to complain. If the flier can't be bothered to signal, why should the Judges move? I understand that the latest rules prevent the Judges from moving more than 1/8 circle during a flight, OBTW.  Steve

"STEVE..SORRY BUD!!! 
"Then if that is true...that the latest rule "PREVENTS THE JUDGES FROM MOVING MORE THAN 1/8 OF A CIRLCLE DURING A FLIGHT!" IS NOT ONLY DEAD WRONG....BUT IS AS LAME AS THOSE FLAT-FOOTED LAZYBOY HEADED JUDGES.....who handicap not only themselves...but even worse...lessens their ability to judge the very shapes of the pattern  from their ALL IMPORTANT VIEW POINT....BUT EVEN WORSE...IT SICKENS ME TO EVEN THINK THAT A FLYER WOULD HAVE TO LESSEN HIS ABILITY TO FLY HIS BEST PATTERN....BY HAVING TO COW DOWN TO LAZY FLAT FOOTED JUDGES, WHO ARE VIRTUALLY BLINDED BY NOT STANDING IN THE CORRECT UPWIND POSITION?
For an experiment...JUST TRY TO STAND IN ONE SPOT...RECORD A FLIGHT ON VIDEO....either slightly up wind or downwind, while another video camera is given to another judge who moves in cadence with the wind direction changes...
TRUST THIS!!!!
TALK ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT A PATTERN WILL APPEAR...FROM EITHER VANTAGE POINTS.

I have flown and judged numerous  precision sportkite competitions...and nothing will eliminate any judge faster...THAN A JUDGE WHO REFUSES TO MOVE TO THE UPWIND SIDE OF THE KITE PATTERN WINDOW!  The judging staff always move in cadence with the direction of the wind at all times...EVEN DURING A HUGE WIND SHIFT.
Even when kite patterns are flown with-in only HALF A WINDOW..HUGE DIFFERENCES IN SHAPES...WILL VARY GREATLY!
ROUNDS BECOME EGG SHAPES...SQUARES CORNERS BECOME VIRTUALLY UNJUDGEABLE...AS WELL AS HEIGHTS...ETC.
Nothing reeeks more disrespect than judges who refuse to understand  (or give a rippazzz) the aerodynamics of flying either kites or toy model airplanes, that are restricted to flying on strings...that rely on the flyers ability to adjust to the variations of wind conditions and direction changes.....AND THEN REFUSE TO WORK IN TANDUM WITH THE JUDGES...
BOTTOM LINE:
EITHER THE JUDGES NEED TO CHANGE..OR THE RULES NEED A CHANGE?
RULES ARE MADE TO BE BROKEN....ESPECIALLY IF THE RULE IS STUPID DEAD WRONG!

PUT THAT IN BOB GIESKE'S PIPE AND SMOKE IT!!!!![/move]

[Paul Taylor]

OK, lets not take this thread off topic. It is not about judges moving when the wind shifts. (If one of the other judges breaks wind then by all means let the others move away from the offender.) And besides I am not too concerned with being judged just yet on doing them.

It is where do you start and overhead 8. I think I know now where in the circle to start the overhead 8.
But now I am confused on just how to move my body and hand, arm to do the first inside.

I need to see an up close video of someone doing this. Or better yet go sit in the circle the next time someone flys.

Still need help.....

[Harleyman]

Check out the Aeromaniacs web site.  www.aeromaniacs.com
There are some great videos of all the maneuvers.

[Paul Taylor]

Thanks Chris,

Good info on this site.

I wish all the video links worked.

A few of Dave and Ted are broken.


Never got those pictures from Mexico???

[Shultzie]

A good choice of video's that show EXACTLY what I was trying to get across about what happens when JUDGES DO NOT MAKE AN EFFORT TO ACCOMIDATE THE STUNT FLYER THAT IS UTILIZING THE DIRECTION OF THE OFTEN VARIBLE WIND DIRECTIONS,in order to illustrate and present the best illustration of perfection in flying of the stunt maneuvers.

For example...even a world class champion's VIRTUALLY PERFECTLY PERFORMED TRIANGLE..WILL LOOK HORRIFIC to any judge if he stands slightly up wind or down wind. Either direction to right or left will make on side of the triangle look steep or flattened.
Great examples are shown on the rounds and square 8 and a perfectly performed hour-glass looks especially poorly performed maneuver...if the judge or photographer DOES NOT MOVE WITH THE VARIBLE FLOW OF THE WIND! 
Even worse yet...is the JUDGE (especially if this judge happens to be a seasoned competition flyer) YOU CAN BET YOUR BRITCHES...that if this flyer doesn't move to the center of the flyers wind window...SADLY, this judge will take into account what he THINKS HE SEE'S that flyer performing that maneuver and will judge him on what he feels is a perfect example.
BOTTOM LINE: AGAIN.
We know that a JUDGED EVENT is just that (A JUDGED EVENT) but I think EVERYONE COULD IMPROVE THEIR FLYING AND THE SCORES...
SIMPLY, IF BOTH THE FLYER AND THE JUDGES...MAKE A MUTUAL EFFORT TO PERFORM THE TASK OF KEEPING TRACK OF OFTEN VARIBLE WIND DIRECTIONS...AND MAKE THAT SAME EFFORT TO WORK TOGETHER show as to illustrate the best duplication of stunt flight path as shown in the old humdrum'worntofrazzzelled stunt pattern rule book!

ANY ONE SEEN A PERFECT PATTERN???  PRETTY DARN CLOSE BUT---LET'S GET REAL, AS SOBERING AS IT MAY BE...I HAVE NOT SEEN A PERFECT PATTERN-----EVER! 

MAYBE SOME DAY....BUT NOT YET!!!! I AM FROM ARKANSAS..NOT MISERY' SHOW ME!![/glow][/glow]

[phil c]

I'm just glad I've bribed all the videographers to erase any recordings of my flying!!