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Author Topic: Large propellers and Stunt Flying  (Read 3111 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« on: August 20, 2021, 06:38:56 AM »
Hello,
I was flying my Big yellow with a 13.5" x 5.5" x 3 propeller.
The wind was 8-9 knots.
 
A local F2B flier said: " stunt planes with large propellers speed up in maneuvers when it is windy".
I have asked him if he thinks that the stunt planes with small propellers do not speed up in the wind.
He said, "they speed up less".

All stunt planes speed up in maneuvers when it is windy but, after thinking about this for a while, I found another question with no answer yet: what is the impact of the propeller diameter on speeding in maneuvers when it is windy.

Are we talking about another parasite effect of the gyroscopic moment that increases with the diameter increase?
Thank you,
M

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2021, 07:18:08 AM »
The speed-up comes when the engine unloads as it is pushed by the wind. If the motor can hold it's rpm, it speeds up less. Large diameter props slow turning rate in maneuvers. One of the old tricks was to go to a smaller diameter prop as the wind comes up, richen the motor a bit and add a little tail weight to maintain the turning rate. The lighter the prop weight the better in calm or wind but really helps in wind when the ship gets pushed in turns as it reduces gyro resistance to turn. Piped motors, diesels and electric handle the wind better than most 4-2-4 and require less adjustments for wind to hold rpm.

Best,   DennisT

Online Dennis Nunes

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2021, 08:03:25 AM »
Hi Matt,

With my electric plane, I experimented with two different Igor Burger props, a 11x6 undercambered and a 12x5 narrow blade flatback prop. Both props are 3-bladed. In calm wind I liked the 11x6. However when I flew the plane in the wind (anything above 5 mph) the 11x6 prop pulled the plane with no issues and accelerated through the corners really well, in fact, too well. As a result of the acceleration, the plane would "wind-up" too much, especially in the corners. The 12x5 prop still helped with the acceleration coming out of square corners, but it didn’t allow the plane to wind-up in the loops or square corners.

Dennis

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2021, 08:38:07 AM »
Hi Dennis Nunes,
All true if you fly using Igor's propellers. I believe 11" diameter has a pitch =5", not 6".
Great props!

Hi Dennis Toth,
The speeding up I am talking about comes from the adding of two vectors: the velocity vector of the plane and the velocity vector of wind. The projection of the resultant vector on the momentary flight path causes an increase in the model's momentary speed.
When I fly in the wind, I decrease the RPM to compensate for the above-mentioned speed increase caused by the wind vector.

Hi Lauri,
The power plant works very well: the propeller is getting enough torque, RPM is stable in the level flight and the overall efficiency of the system is good. After 5 min. 20 seconds pattern flight, the model lands with cells voltage close to 3.78-3.80 V. The 6S 2800 mAh battery consumption is 1700-1750 mAh.

I will be testing the same plane with a 12x6x4 carbon propeller and the motor with a higher Kv. Four blade propeller weighs 31 grams and is 12 grams heavier than 13.5x5.5x3. The four-blade prop will turn with 9600 RPM. Three-blade prop. turns with 8900 RPM. Now....can somebody predict what will happen when the model with the four-blade propeller flies in the wind?

Will it speed up more or less?

I like to find the answers to the questions like this before I fly - not after.

Happy Flying in the wind!
Regards,
M

 

 


Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2021, 03:33:18 PM »
I like to find the answers to the questions like this before I fly - not after.

Well this is getting more absurb everyday I read.

So you want to know the outcome of an experiment prior to completion of the test?

Matt, Lauri was making engines and observing propeller efficiency over 20 years ago and knows a thing or two.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2021, 04:34:17 PM »
Hello,
I was flying my Big yellow with a 13.5" x 5.5" x 3 propeller.
The wind was 8-9 knots.
 
A local F2B flier said: " stunt planes with large propellers speed up in maneuvers when it is windy".
I have asked him if he thinks that the stunt planes with small propellers do not speed up in the wind.
He said, "they speed up less".

    That is generally true for 4-2 break engines (assuming the rest of the parameters are the same, like the same pitch). More diameter = more load on the engine in normal conditions, so it unloads more.  Wide-blade props are particularly prone to this issue. Generally anything that increases the efficiency of the prop will also increase the feedback load variation.

      It is less true on conventional IC setups (piped) but you can greatly effect how it works with pipe length adjustments. I wouldn't expect it to be true on either governed electric or feedback electric systems, although I am far from an expert.

  Note that wind causes these effects by a combination of two things - reduction of induced drag as the wind angle changes, and dynamic soaring effects where the shear and wind angles cause speedup and slowdown - not the prop and engine. The prop and engine, correctly set up, inhibit it to varying degrees. This is the primary reason that 4-2 break engines went out of fashion, tuned pipe engines tend to inhibit this effect *far, far better* than 50's systems. Really good ones sound almost as if they are going to quit as you come around the bottoms of loops, when the unload puts the pipe feedback far out of tune.

   But just to be entirely clear, the engine/prop don't cause this, they just fight it with different degrees of success.


Quote
Are we talking about another parasite effect of the gyroscopic moment that increases with the diameter increase?


  No, those are small bordering on negligible in any case, and particularly not important in this case, where whipping up greatly increases the line tension. The effects of whipping up on 4-2 engine is strictly a matter of how different props feed different load variations back to the engine, and how the engine responds to those variations.

    Brett

p.s. apropos of "engine modifications", the obessive need to grind engine ports all started when people running various "schneurle wars" engines found that, in some conditions, particularly when the engine was unloaded due to whip-up, that instead of fighting the speedup, then actually ran faster, and then never came back to normal afterwards. This is the dreaded "runaway", essentially cause by trying to run engines at RPM far below their HP peak. Unload it a bit, it speeds up, gains power, it goes faster still, gains more power, etc, until it is going like a bat out of hell. It speeds up until the breathing or the load stops it. It is essentially *unstable*. The partial solution is to run it in such a way that it is already "running away" in level flight. So, let it crank up where it likes. If its too fast, reduce the prop pitch and/or diameter until it is going a reasonable speed.
 
   The second problem you find with this idea is that when you do this, the required pitch may be too low to practically use (where do you find 2.5" pitch props?), because "running away" results in far too much power to handle. All that means is that the engine is too large to handle on the size airplane you have. The obvious solution is to use a smaller engine that already has about the right amount of power:   Sort of like this:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/engine-set-up-tips/more-results-with-'new'-25la/msg367669/#msg367669

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/o-s-25la-vs-fox-35/msg324648/#msg324648
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 04:53:11 PM by Brett Buck »

Online Dennis Nunes

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2021, 06:17:55 PM »
Hi Dennis Nunes,
All true if you fly using Igor's propellers. I believe 11" diameter has a pitch =5", not 6".
Great props!
My bad! Yes the pitch is 5", not 6".

Dennis

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2021, 11:45:31 PM »
Hi Brett,
You wrote:" Note that wind causes these effects by a combination of two things - reduction of induced drag as the wind angle changes, and dynamic soaring effects where the shear and wind angles cause speedup and slowdown - not the prop and engine. The prop and engine, correctly set up, inhibit it to varying degrees."

Interesting...

Of course, I have questions:
1. Reduction of induced drag - is it caused by the tip vortex axis deflection? Where can I read more about it? Some old NACA papers?
2. What is the "dynamic soaring effect?". Again, perhaps some NACA publications deal with this issue.

Perhaps when you wrote "The prop and engine, correctly set up, inhibit it to varying degrees". How does this work?

Thanks,
M

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2021, 12:51:07 AM »
1. Reduction of induced drag - is it caused by the tip vortex axis deflection? Where can I read more about it? Some old NACA papers?

    Tip vortex axis deflection?  NACA Papers? You are examining the problem with a microscope, when all you need is a picture window.

   There is no exotic or hard-to-understand subtle effect.  Even in dead calm, for a loop, say, the Cl is lower (and thus generates less drag) at the top of the loop than the bottom. You have to fight 1 G of gravity at the bottom, you have to fight only .71G of gravity at the top. Thats why you can't hold your hand or constant control pressure going around a loop. That effect is greatly exaggerated when the wind is blowing, you have the wind unloading the wing at the top of the loops, and nothing at the bottom. If your engine put out constant power, that alone would greatly accelerate it.

   Unload the airplane (require less lift) and the induced drag goes down. Reduce the induced drag, the airplane speeds up, to a degree determined by how the thrust from the prop reacts to the increased airspeed. Hint- the thrust goes down, but the engine takes a while to react, so the airplane accelerates.



Quote
2. What is the "dynamic soaring effect?". Again, perhaps some NACA publications deal with this issue.

     Again, look at how the wind effects the airplane as you travel around a loop. On the way up, the airplane gets increasingly nosed up into the wind, slowing it down, on the way down, it gets pushed down, with a component down the tail, that accelerates it.

   Additionally, there is almost always a lot of shear in the wind, where the velocity at low altitudes is lower than at high altitudes (like the top of the loops) That means as you go around, it tends to speed you up more than it slows you down.   By the way, you can just type "dynamic soaring" into Google, the first link is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_soaring

   Where is shows a lopsided version of loops where velocity is gained flying in and out of shear. This is the "head on" version, you have to do a little more work to put it into our rotating coordinate system, but otherwise, you are counting on the wind increasing your groundspeed at the top and counting on it doing nearly nothing at the bottom, that is the effect. It's not nearly as strong as the typical glider examples because you are counting on shear just from viscous effects and low-altitude turbulence.

Quote
"The prop and engine, correctly set up, inhibit it to varying degrees". How does this work?


     Again, this is the most fundamental function of successful stunt engines. When the airspeed increases, that reduces the load on the engine, and when the airspeed decreases, that increases the load on the engine. The prop is harder to turn at low speeds than high speeds - I wrote a very long discussion of the effect here:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/engineering-board/effect-of-wind-on-maneuvers/msg568436/#msg568436

   Any time it is generating more thrust, it is also generating more drag, which for a propellor, means the torque required to turn it at a particular speed is higher. That is "loading" the engine, the converse "unloads" the engine. This is *absolutely critical* for any stunt engine to work. Increase the load suddenly, and your engine had darn well better increase its output, because otherwise, you are just going to slow down.   

    This is the cause of the 4-2 break in vintage engine systems. It's running along in level flight with a mixture that is excessively rich, to the point it misfires on alternate cycles (4-cycles). Put a load on it, and that slows the rpm enough that it has enough extra heat to fire even the rich mixture every time - breaking into a 2-cycle.  Conventional engine systems, the reduced RPM puts it closer to the tuned peak of the pipe, increasing the cylinder packing and increasing the torque, inhibiting it slowing down more.

  Point being, these are the *very basic fundamentals* that are inherent to *all* stunt systems.

     I don't want to pick on you, but please - stop worrying about minor trivial aerodynamic subtleties until you have fully understood the big picture, gross characteristics. You don't need to concern yourself with what angle the tip vortices are deflected or Prandtl tunnels to understand these, or NACA papers, if you haven't already fully understood the far more obvious larger effects. To first approximation, you don't even need to know the mechanism of any of these effects to use or be aware of the effects.

    There should be plenty of competent stunt fliers in Poland that can explain it do you, if they are willing. That is generally much more effective than having me try to type out lengthy word explanations, although I am willing to do it. I certainly *did not* figure any of this stuff out originally - other people over decades had noticed the effect and come up with workaround or solutions, mostly without understanding the reasons why it happened, other than the most facile way.

 My minimal contributions to this body of knowledge are more about the mechanisms behind it, but that is not at all necessary for knowing what to do in a practical state.

    Excellence is a journey, not a destination. And you can't understand the end without first experiencing the beginning.

   
    Brett

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2021, 04:35:21 PM »
I don't want to pick on you, but please - stop worrying about minor trivial aerodynamic subtleties until you have fully understood the big picture.

Let me copy it again..

I don't want to pick on you, but please - stop worrying about minor trivial aerodynamic subtleties until you have fully understood the big picture, gross characteristics


When you *really* understand stunt requirements, you simply wont need to ask questions that have zero relevance to stunt, this is Brett being polite.




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Offline Steve Thomas

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2021, 08:18:09 PM »
Quote
You have to fight 1 G of gravity at the bottom, you have to fight only .71G of gravity at the top.

I’d have thought the main reason for the reduction in induced drag at the top of a loop is that your .71G is working with your lift vector, not against, so you’re not really fighting it at all - or have I missed something there?

Quote
When you *really* understand stunt requirements, you simply wont need to ask questions that have zero relevance to stunt, this is Brett being polite.

Why wouldn’t Brett be polite? This is model aircraft, not a debate on Middle Eastern politics or intersectional transgender theory. Surely Matt can raise whatever questions and discussions he likes, just as you’re free not to engage with him. Do we really need gatekeeping by those who ‘*really* understand stunt requirements’?

Online Joe Gilbert

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2021, 08:35:03 PM »
Tethered flight is hard ,tethered Stunt In wind is really hard.
Joe Gilbert

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2021, 09:48:54 PM »
I’d have thought the main reason for the reduction in induced drag at the top of a loop is that your .71G is working with your lift vector, not against, so you’re not really fighting it at all - or have I missed something there?

   Correct, it is helping you, not fighting you.

Quote
Why wouldn’t Brett be polite?  Do we really need gatekeeping by those who ‘*really* understand stunt requirements’?

   Everyone might not believe this, but I try to be polite almost all the time, as long as someone is not trying to jerk me, or the rest of us, around. If someone tries to ask honest questions (Matt being an excellent example), they will have no difficulty with me - whether the question makes sense or not. No one, at any time, was born knowing this stuff, and everyone, all of us, are somewhere along the learning curve.

   I am of course fully capable of both detecting BS and responding to it effectively. Just about the only time you see me hostile is when that happens, and usually only with repeat offenders. That is certainly not the case here.

    My point to Matt (and everyone else), is that you have to start at the beginning, and progress towards the end - you can't skip steps. Also, you can be successful at *any* level in stunt without really understanding the underlying mechanisms, and there are *plenty* of people who have no interest in or patience with, trying to figure out the "why" of any of these phenomenon. I am interested because that's just what I do, but it certainly isn't necessary to understand the problems in the large.  And, as noted, my knowledge is *far from complete*.

   I have never met Matt, and he is 5000 miles away. I am making some pretty big assumptions here, but the sorts of questions and conclusions seem like a classic case of "can't see the forest for the trees" situation, in this case, not just the trees, he is trying to start with the biochemical dynamics of the mitochondria in the cells of the tree and deriving the existence of the forest as a logical extension.

    Brett

   
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 10:16:56 PM by Brett Buck »

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2021, 06:23:38 AM »
Tethered flight is hard ,tethered Stunt In wind is really hard.
tethered Stunt *without* wind can be just as bad! LL~

Ken
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2021, 09:15:12 AM »
Tethered flight is hard ,tethered Stunt In wind is really hard.

Matt Colan

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2021, 10:58:38 PM »
Hello Guys,
I do not mind Brett raising the discussion temperature.

Let me repeat the initial question....Will the stunt planes with large propellers speed up in maneuvers more when it is windy.

I have flight-tested the same yellow plane with 12x6x4 propeller. Attached. It speeds up in the 8 knots wind the same way as when I was using 13.5x5.5x3 propeller. This is a subjective opinion of course.

Because I am still an average stunt flier, I cannot assess the quality of maneuvers the way people like the US or the EU top five in stunt can do.

Best Regards and Happy Fall Flying.
M

 

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2021, 11:13:27 PM »
Hello Guys,
I do not mind Brett raising the discussion temperature.

Let me repeat the initial question....Will the stunt planes with large propellers speed up in maneuvers more when it is windy.

I have flight-tested the same yellow plane with 12x6x4 propeller. Attached. It speeds up in the 8 knots wind the same way as when I was using 13.5x5.5x3 propeller. This is a subjective opinion of course.

  What engine is this and how is it running? As noted, it makes a big difference because the engine is the primary factor. As a general rule, the answer is yes, because of the unloading as discussed at great length above. But you can probably set it up to do whatever you want.

      Brett

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2021, 06:33:15 AM »
Tethered flight is hard ,tethered Stunt In wind is really hard.
Flying straight down too long is harder yet.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2021, 07:23:45 AM »
  What engine is this and how is it running? As noted, it makes a big difference because the engine is the primary factor. As a general rule, the answer is yes, because of the unloading as discussed at great length above. But you can probably set it up to do whatever you want.

      Brett

Matt is flying electric :)

My 2 cents - with electric, prop changes are more subtle, because you don't have the prop/engine run parameter in the mix.
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Offline Brad LaPointe

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2021, 08:20:43 AM »
F2D planes use teeny-tiny props. They most certainly speed up in windy conditions. Much more fun in the wind than a stunter .

Brad

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2021, 01:27:07 PM »
Control line airplanes in the wind are part kite.
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Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2021, 04:31:56 PM »
Tethered flight is hard ,tethered Stunt In wind is really hard.

And he should know after having to fly in "that" wind in the Top-5 Fly-Ooff at the Nats this year. But, he made it look easy!

Good on ya' Joe - Bob

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2021, 09:05:54 AM »

Why wouldn’t Brett be polite?


It's just the way he is. I don't take him as being impolite most often.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Large propellers and Stunt Flying
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2021, 12:12:10 PM »
It's just the way he is. I don't take him as being impolite most often.

  Well, with rare exceptions, I think I am being polite. But, I also will tell you what I think the problem is. Mealy-mouthing or soft-playing the reality does not do anyone any good.

   Note that I did give what I though was a pretty good answer to his question, which is "it depends" - on what you are spinning the prop with. His buddies comment was generally true from 1950 to 1990. It may or may not be true now, I can easily envision systems where bigger props control the groundspeed (which is what he cares about) better, rather than worse.

   Part of the problem in many cases is that very inquisitive people tend to look for subtle and obscure explanations for things, when 95% of the problems in stunt are very simple and straightforward, and are just not recognized. People struggle with long-solved problems for years/decades, and it is frustrating to see. Particularly in Matt's case, because he clearly has dogged determination that is a very important feature of anyone trying to learn stunt.

    I wasn't being rude above, I really meant it - you have to learn the basics of trim, power, piloting, before you can even see the subtle deviations. That applies to *almost every stunt pilot ever*, myself included. I don't have all the answers any more than anyone else, anyone who claims otherwise is fooling themselves. You have to be able to admit that to yourself to avoid falling into these traps.   If that rubs someone the wrong way, that's unfortunate, but I think it is true. Happy-talking it doesn't solve the problem.

     Brett

       


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