L. M. COX HERO OR VILLIAN?

[LARRY RICE]

Boy, I have heard so many people blame Cox for kids not getting into the Control Line Hobby. I have to say BOLDERDASH! Sorry about the language. Cox the villain discouraged hundreds of kids from continuing on into the control line hobby but he also, as the hero, introduced millions of kids to the control line hobby....kids who otherwise never would have heard of such a thing as control line planes. Kids got planes for Christmas, birthdays or saw them in every toy store....where else would they have discovered control line planes? Stumble upon some remote flying site where they were being flown? I feel that Cox played an important part in the over all history of control line modeling and should not be made out to be the villain. What about you?
Larry

[Paul Smith]

I liked the Cox products of the late 50's and early 60's.

The usual routine was to fly the "plastic nasty" until it was used up, then transfer the engine to a Scientific hollow log.  Worked for us.

The Cox Conquest 15 was a great product, of which I've been through 20 or more,

After Mr. Cox left the bidness, some of his successors put out junk, which made enemies, but to answer your question, I'd rate LM a genuine Hero of Control Line.

[James Lee]

And as a further note...   Mr Cox instituted the lawsuit which opened up CL modeling in a much larger way...   Since Jim Walker had patented the bellcrank, the kit makers had to pay a royalty to use a bellcrank in their designs...   Many kits of the era had a blank spot for the bellcrank location and a note 'put your favorite control system here..."  the lawsuit showed that Walker had seen Oba St Clairs system before he patented his...   the sad part is, in losing the suit Walker lost a lot of his drive to continue...   
And to also comment on the original post, I agree that Cox really brought CL models into the mainstream of modeling...   the engines were always the best part, and were retrofitted into many balsy models after the plasty nasty bit the dust... 
My introduction into modeling was a blister pack Baby Bee....
FWIW
Later   
Jim

[Charlie Pate]

Some kids lived across the street from me.At the time, I was a sterling ,fox ,man.
These kids got a Cox Warhawk one christmas. The one with inverted engine.
I showed them how to start it and gave them a few tips.
They paid attention and took it from there.
It had a decent glide.It would ROG no problem.
They learned to loop it and fly it upside down for about a lap as that was as far as it would go before the engine quit due to lack of the proper tank configuration .
All I did was get an occasional grass seed out from between the reed.

Cox may have made a few less than , airplanes, But lets look at Sterling,Berkelyand don,t forget the infamous
Fox 19 with the two part crankcase and the square intake.To err is himan ,forgive devine.
 

[Bill Gruby]

      Larry;
 
          I felt that strongly about a modeling icon, I found a biography and submitted it to Jim Oliver in the Hall of Fame Section. That modeling icon is now a resident of said Hall of Fame. Does this give you an idea? I hope so, it only takes one person to make this happen. Go for it my friend.     My Icon was Matt Kania

       "Billy G"   

  Edit---Here is the L M Cox Biography   http://www.modelaircraft.org/museum/bio/Cox.pdf

The rest is up to you to do.

[Dennis Adamisin]

I vote HERO

He put a high quality low cost product in the hands of the masses at an affordable price.  For decades he monopolized a segment without behaving like a monopolist. 

[Richard Fleming]

First plane I ever flew was a Scientific 1/2A P-40 profile with built up wing. But thanks to the Cox PT-19,I learned how to fly, crash,fly, and crash! I was large wingspan compared to the balsa kits and boy did it take some abuse. If kids could learn to crank up the Cox .049s, they could fire up the larger engines too! Thumbs up for Cox!

[Keith Spriggs]

I would have to say hero. The first plane I ever had was a solid wing profile built from magazine plans with a Baby Bee. Next was a Lil Jumpin Bean with the same engine. I wore the engine out in one season, but I learned to fly. My son and daughter also learned with a Baby Bee profile. If I fly anything at a contest this year it will be 1/2 A Goodyear Racing, which has to have .049 reed valve so I guess I will still be flying a Cox powered plane.

[LARRY RICE]

I do not know where you live at but you might try a Musciano Contest if there is one near to you. 
Larry

[Marvin Denny]

  I vote HERO!!  I never saw a Cox Plastic that would not fly  (unlike MANY of the Wen-Mac plastics).  Many people had the Wen-Macs and just grouped them all as "Cox Plastic McNastys".   That gave Cox an undeserved poor reputation.
  My oldest son and I, for many years would drive around town to the various parks, parking lots, and school yards on Christmas day afternoon and the following weekends finding and trying to help the recipients of the various "ready to fly" models. We helped hundreds over the years.  Many of those that we helped are still modeling today.
  some have come by and thanked us and say that they do the same thing today that I did back then.
  It is a big and wonderful world out there and many still need help.

  Bigiron

[Shawn Kuntz]

What about Testers?  In the early 1980's I had a Testers Spitfire that I bought at Kmart.  I flew it the whole summer and I bet every kid in the neighborhood flew it too!  Even my mom tried it once.  I have a lot of good memories with the old Cox .049 motors.  I still have my Babe Bees, Black Widow and Golden Bee.  I even have the .049 from our very first PT-19 that my Dad bought at Woolworths in the 1970's.  The PT-19 lasted for about 10 seconds.  It went up and it went down.  That was the end of it.  I may have to build a new 1/2a model to fly.

[Keith Spriggs]

I do not know where you live at but you might try a Musciano Contest if there is one near to you. 
Larry

I do not know of any contest close by that offer that, but it would be a fun event. I am glad to see Walt getting the recognition that he so richly deserves. Sadly many have passed on before they could be recognized and thanked for their contribution. I guess that is why I try to keep my "Thank You's" up to date, which reminds me that it is time once again to thank Robert, the moderators, and especially all of you that share with the rest of us.

[George]

I would have to say Leroy Cox was a hero. My first NEW engine was a Space Bug Jr. Anyone who had one of those knows what a pain in the backside they were to mount. You had to drill a hole in the firewall and provide an air passage to the intake. This is an obstacle for a pre-teen on his own.
The Cox RTF at that time was the TD-1, which, at $20 was out of many kid's reach (including mine). Later Cox came out with the TD-3 which was much more affordable but by that time I was beyond RTF's.
I did get a plastic (Comet Sabre44) later, after I already knew how to fly...because it was on a closeout sale.
IMHO, those who dropped out because of RTF failure would probably have dropped out shortly anyway. Most kids who want to fly will find a way. I flew for about a year with friends launching and sometimes flying my plane before I met anyone else who built or flew.

George

[Wayne Collier]

Among the first toys that I remember playing with as a child was one of dads old control line planes.  No idea what model it might have been.  Knowing dad it may have been his own design or built from magazine planes or just from looking at a picture.  It no longer had an engine but I remember the bell crank and elevators.  When I was in elementary school dad bought and built me a Li'l Wizard.  He put an old cub on it but it was very unreliable.  Maybe we just didn't know the right methods.  When I got my first Babe Bee the plane came alive.  I was a sporadic flier until I was in high school then I became a frequent flier.  Lots of fun.  I moved on to a Li'l satan but never really flew it well.  Later when I got a Cox Sky Raider I was a bit disappointed in its performance.  Thinking back, it may have suffered from an undiagnosed fuel draw problem.  I still have that old Babe Bee but I'm not currently using it.  I still have the engine out of the Sky Raider also.  I put it on a Golden Bee tank and its a favorite engine of mine.  Cox is a hero for making an affordable engine that was widely available and durable enough to last through a youngster learning to fly control line.

[Russell Shaffer]

Yep, Thimble Drone.  I had a Wen Mac Bonanza from Sears Roebuck.  That was my UC introduction, and it did fly.  I don't remember any more about that aircraft, but the Wen Mac did power  a couple of free flights later.  I still have some of my old Cox and OK stuff but the Wen Mac is lost in the mist of time.  Must have chucked it.  The Cox engines are still runnable, and the 020's have all gone to people building new airplanes today.  I sent most of my spare 049's to Cliff for his kid's airplane project, but the point of this whole rambling rant is that the Cox engines are still flying airplanes after 40 plus years and they were very inexpensive to boot.  I was a poor kid and I could buy a Cox engine that WORKED and would last for many years.  If anyone knows of a comparable product now, I would be interested.  Guess I'm a "hero" voter. 

[Scott Hartford]

Cox was a hero because they were the first engines I could afford. I was skeptical of the flying(?) charecteristics of the planes (RTF) at the time so I quite often turned to another hero of mine, Carl Goldberg. They were affordable for me and quick building. I played with a bunch of Cox engines and remember running a .010 in my bedroom!

[Warren Leadbeatter]

As kids we thought the Cox planes were tops!  I had a Cox Fokker D7. The engines were cheap and readily available and easy for kids to work on.  This was an excellent introduction into control line for me. As time went on and I flew it more I met other people who had balsa planes and they taught me how to build my own and I subsquently moved on to bigger and better things, but the Cox 049s, Black Widows, Tee Dees and Medallions, have always held a place in my heart. So much so that I still play around with them today.  We love to get the PT19 out and let a few people crash it before they get the idea and can fly it without crashing.

Hundred's of thousands of kids got a Cox plane at one time or another. I think that it is unreasonable to suggest they all would have kept an interest in flying model planes if they had something better than a Cox to begin with.  Reasons that come to mind are: 1 The kid might no be all that interested in model planes and sees it as just a toy .2 they might have no idea what they are doing, ie no common sense 3 a parent thought it was too dangerous. 4 the kid had nowhere safe or suitable to fly it 5 the kid destroyed it first flight and no one encouraged him to build another 6 the kid had another interest they like more (like girls or football).

A lot of general public who I talk to are amazed when they actually see one of my stunt planes fly. Most of them think that the plane is just "on strings" and flies by itself. It's not until they realise the complexity of the pattern and see one land that they get an idea that they planes actually do fly.

I think Leroy Cox is a Legend.

Cheers

[Larry Renger]

Speaking as a 14 year old kid who switched to Cox engines way back then, and worked his way up to be Director of Engineering for the company (subsequently scuttled by E*$s)  I have a real dedication to the original company.  It is a real grief to me what has become of a modeling icon.  Words can not describe the conflict of wanting to use the engines I know and love, but not wanting to support that  &^%$# person who now owns and destroys a part of history.

Just so you know, I have worked for Estes pre-current management, Fox Engines, Cox when it was Cox, Mattel (11 years, ever heard of HeMan?), a bunch of free-lance work, several companies dedicated to producing toys for the quick serve food chains, Cox before E**$s bought it and then degraded to C*x.  After that more consulting, and actually still, in mostly retirement, consulting for the Disney Co. Stores (Not actually Disney, though I do own their stock)

All that as background, I have always been a believer that first you learn to fly on something bulletproof, then learn to build.  My current favorite trainer is Mike Ogren's Plastic Fantastic 24.  In three weekends, I taught two people how to fly, and got them all the way through figure 8s and inverted flight.  Probably 50 crashes and no damage.  It is the video game concept of go as far as you can and get right back to it.  No fear, no damage, learn the skill.  That plane is as close to press "reset" as anything else I have ever seen. 

Andy Borgogna's kid had crashed his ARF Flite Streak doing a loop.  Serious discouragement! Back off and watch from a distance time.  We got him flying the PF24, and by end of day, no discouragement, no fear, no crying, he was doing figure 8s and a couple of outsides.  I loaned them the plane indefinitely!  I hope I get it back for the next kid!

[LARRY RICE]

way to go! I fully support anyone who takes the time to teach a kid to fly. RIGHT ON, LARRY!!!
I am surprised that none of the stunt fliers who blame Cox for ills of the ills have not stepped up with their opinions. Well I am glad that they did not.
Larry

[minnesotamodeler]

The only thing that ever irked me about Mr. Cox's engines is the tendency to start backwards, inherent in reed-valve engines..  You would think the law of averages would prevail, and at least half the time they'd start in the right direction, but it never seemed so!  I always threatened to get a pusher prop and just let it run backward, never did it 'cause I knew in my heart of hearts it would then start frontwards most of the time.  But then the spring starters pretty well took care of that problem anyhow.  The old Coxes sure ran circles around my first engine, a 1950s O.K. Cub that came on a Firebaby.  I think they also outran the Atwood I had, and certainly the old Wen-Mac...looking back at it, the early 1/2As sure were weak little engines! Looking at their modern counterparts, we live in a blessed age, perhaps brought about in no small part by Mr. Cox. I guess I vote "hero".

--Ray

[Robert McHam]

I too vote hero as my introduction to powered modeling was in the form of a Cox Golden Bee. I do not recall my LHS having any other brand of motor that size to put on my Scientific Zig Zag but before I bought it I was mostly under the impression that Cox was the only way to go as there were a great number of ads by Cox in the magazines that I devoured. Seems all the build articles had a Cox motor on them as well, whether it .010,.020 or .049. When I read the What's happening columns regardind speed, FFand C/L There almost always was a Cox pictured on just about any half A plane mentioned.
It just seemed natural that Cox would be my choice.

Robert

[Phil Bare]

LM Cox definatly needs to be listed as HERO.....his plastic planes all flew....his engines all ran....although I never did mess much with 1/2 A stuff.....the Olympic .15 that I had was truely a marvel for its time..But anyway, Cox products introduced more kids to the hobby then all the rest combined probably.....

[Bob Kruger]

I have yet to read where Leroy Cox was a villain.  From a manufacturing and quality control aspect, his engines were so good that for years no one could touch the level of precision and consistency at a reasonable price point that you got with a L. M. Cox engine. 

At the same time, for first time flyers some of the plastic RTFs were marginal at best.  They were heavy, had high wing loading, and often had an engine match that made control very difficult.  Its not that the engine was poorly made, but often times just did not have the ponies to keep the ship in the air if conditions were not ideal.  My PT-19 was proof positive of that.  I had to use from first base to third base on a local little league ballfield to get it off the ground, and that  was with the engine running flat out.  Any wind and it was going in.

I think that the net result from Cox RTFs was that a lot more kids got the chance for that first flight - and a lot of them gave up after trying to fly one of the high wing loading scale ships that disintegrated after being crashed a couple of times.  Its not that they were poorly made - they weren't.  Just they were difficult to fly for a rank beginner.  At the same time, a good Cox engine in one of the Sterling Beginners series or some of the Scientifics normally resulted in a ship that flew well, was easy to repair, and gave a new flyer a sense of confidence once basic maneuvers were mastered.  I flew a lot of them.  You could throw a couple of them in the baskets of your bicycle along with a quart of fuel, a dry cell, and a box with a couple of props and glow plugs and have fun all afternoon at the local church parking lot or little league field.  And, Cox engines proved to be rugged, long lived, and easy to run once you got the knack of them.  As with everything, the initial learning curve was the hard part.

Ironically, I always thought the best trainer Cox ever made were the BF109s and Chipmunks with the foam wings that they sold in the '70s and '80s.  These were just nose heavy enough to not be overly sensitive, had a good two port engine that provided sufficent thrust to overcome less than ideal conditions, reasonable wing loading, and were easy to fly.  They didn't look like a Corsair or Fokker D7 or a Curtis Helldiver, but they flew quite well.  Its a shame they are no longer available.

Leroy Cox was no villain, and I have yet to read the word "villain" anywhere other than this thread.  His low cost RTFs got a lot of kids in the air - unfortunately for many it was only one time.  Its a shame that the same effort that went into quality and consistency of manufacture in Cox products was not always reflected in the aerodynamic design work and flying characteristics of the RTFs.  Perhaps if there had been a little more effort in flyability some of those kids who flew once or twice and then had a pile of broken plastic to look at would not have gotten discouraged with CL and gone onto other pursuits.

RIP Cox Manufacturing.   

V/r

Bob

Boy, I have heard so many people blame Cox for kids not getting into the Control Line Hobby. I have to say BOLDERDASH! Sorry about the language. Cox the villain discouraged hundreds of kids from continuing on into the control line hobby but he also, as the hero, introduced millions of kids to the control line hobby....kids who otherwise never would have heard of such a thing as control line planes. Kids got planes for Christmas, birthdays or saw them in every toy store....where else would they have discovered control line planes? Stumble upon some remote flying site where they were being flown? I feel that Cox played an important part in the over all history of control line modeling and should not be made out to be the villain. What about you?
Larry

[Larry Renger]

Glad you liked the foam wing C*x stunters.  They were an interesting project.  Charles Mackey was instrumental in helping tune in the designs so that they flew as well as they did.

As a side note, you can frequently get those wings on e-Bay, and there are a variety of balsa fuselage designs that fly amazingly well using them.  The key is to use a 1/4" root rib that fits inside the wing, and a 1/16th thick full depth spar out at least 6" on each side to support the flight loads.  Epoxy the wing to the root rib, and instant stunter!   Copy the proportions of your favorite big stunter and you can't go wrong.  Since the wing is totally hollow, use a 3" bellcrank to smooth out the response.

 You can easily come in with a model of 165 sq.in. that weighs under 7 ounces.  Usually closer to 6 ounces.  That is a range of 23sq.in./oz. to 27 sq.in/oz.  My current Sky Sport is regarded as very light at 22.5sq.in./oz.  so you can easily do better!

Do a search on Cox Wings, there have been extensive discussions about them and photos of peoples airplanes.

[Bill Little]

Hi Larry,

I vote "Hero".  The availability of a good running, easy to use, inexpensive engine was the best thing to hit the general C/L market, ever.  I even had one of th big plastic P-51 Racer RTF planes.  It did fly!  And the engine still lives today.  That was 44 years ago.

Bill <><

[Bob Kruger]

Larry;

For years I thought that the engines rolling out of Cox were one of the finest examples of precision manufacturing at an affordable price.  I have watched US market share shrink in everything manufactured as labor, material, and operating costs kept rising.  How Cox could continue to produce as well made a product for the price they did, considering the cost of manufacturing in the PRC (People's Republic of California) was an example that moderately priced high quality could come from the US.  

Regrettably, I think the introduction of lost cost home use video game systems and our ever more liitiguous society caused the demise of Cox more than anything else.  Its a shame.  Many of today's kids will never know the fun of an afternoon of flying and coming home reeking of castor oil exhaust followed by the mandatory parent directed shower).  What was interesting was once a few of us had gotten the knack of starting and flying Cox 1/2A powered models, we were able to help other kids in the area who got Cox RTFs and keep them from cracking up their new ship before they managed basic maneuvers.  It wasn't at all unusual to see 8 or 10 of us kids on a summer afternoon somewhere boring holes in the sky, and I will bet that half were Cox RTFs, and all had Cox engines.

Funny thing was that rarely was there ever any adult intervention, assistance, or complaint from the noise.  I guess if we were in some parking lot or ballfield flying model airplanes, we weren't out causing trouble elsewhere.  Today's more self absorbed less tolerant society finds all kinds of reasons to discourage kids from flying, and wonder why their offspring are the noddle armed pear shaped video kids we see all too often today.

You and the rest of the folks at Cox did good work while the company was still going.  Your products provided many of us some of the most fondly remembered moments of our childhood.

I will look and see if I can find some of those wings.  If anyone has a set for sale, let me know.  I have a couple of Black Widows that need a little exercise....

V/r

Bob

Glad you liked the foam wing C*x stunters.  They were an interesting project.  Charles Mackey was instrumental in helping tune in the designs so that they flew as well as they did.

As a side note, you can frequently get those wings on e-Bay, and there are a variety of balsa fuselage designs that fly amazingly well using them.  The key is to use a 1/4" root rib that fits inside the wing, and a 1/16th thick full depth spar out at least 6" on each side to support the flight loads.  Epoxy the wing to the root rib, and instant stunter!   Copy the proportions of your favorite big stunter and you can't go wrong.  Since the wing is totally hollow, use a 3" bellcrank to smooth out the response.

 You can easily come in with a model of 165 sq.in. that weighs under 7 ounces.  Usually closer to 6 ounces.  That is a range of 23sq.in./oz. to 27 sq.in/oz.  My current Sky Sport is regarded as very light at 22.5sq.in./oz.  so you can easily do better!

Do a search on Cox Wings, there have been extensive discussions about them and photos of peoples airplanes.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Larry R:
With the advent of RC "foamies" and availability of depron foam - in your opinion is feasible to "home brew" those foam wing shells like the ME-109 & Chip?  Can it be shape with a moneycote iron or heat gun and/or would it need a form?

[Larry Renger]

"I will look and see if I can find some of those wings.  If anyone has a set for sale, let me know.  I have a couple of Black Widows that need a little exercise...."

In answer to the above, there is an extensive thread on this subject in the 1/2A Building section.  Also see the  foamfly.com website.  They have a kit for molding this type of wing.

[Tom Hagler]

Yep, Thimble Drone. 

No, Thimble-DROME, a very small AERODROME (old word for airport)

[john e. holliday]

My first engine given me for Christmas by my oldest brother was a Cox Thmble Drome Space Bug .049.  Couldn't hardly wait until Christmas Dinner was over to mount it and run it.  Started very easily and ran.  Cox is a hero to me.  But, to the dismay of the Cox fans I did beat a club member in an impromptu 1/2A race.  I had a Cub 049A on a little Goldberg plane.  He had a Babe Bee on a similar size plane.  I think I had more practice restarting the little Cub than he did the Babe Bee.  Later,  DOC Holliday