Author Topic: Fox Mfg (Read 6867 times)

mike londke · « **on:** February 04, 2014, 08:57:05 AM »

A friend tried to order a Fox engine a few weeks ago. After contacting them to check the status of his order he received this response from Fox. He gave me permission to post it. I am passing it along to the CL community. From Fox Mfg- in these tough economic times Fox has had to retrench and focus
>our limited number of
>employees on the outside jobs that provide a profit.
>
>With the price of motors driven by the Chinese imports, Fox engine
>profitability is limited.
>At this time we don't have the ability to dedicate staff to our Fox
>engine department.
>
>When the economy improves and outside jobs increase, We'll be able to
>resume engine
>production.
>
>Thanks for your support.
>
>Fox Mfg
>Sharon

john e. holliday · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2014, 09:25:50 AM »

Well there go the prices on Fox's on the Ebay.

55chevr · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2014, 10:13:15 AM »

The solution is that Fox should contract for motor manufacture in China.

John Stiles · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2014, 10:22:53 AM »

Everything I ever asked of Sharon, she always went to the enth degree to get me what I needed. Even searching the out of date shelves and returns to find a usable part. The very last time, though...I drew a blank. I guess this thread answers why. I'm gonna hate it when/if they fold up. $:-\$

Avaiojet · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2014, 10:54:53 AM »

Posted twice, sorry

Larry Fernandez · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2014, 12:48:20 PM »

Quote from: Avaiojet on February 04, 2014, 10:54:53 AM

I started out with Fox.

JR Flite Streak and a Fox .15.

What a coincidence,
I started out Hurling Foxes

Fox .15 out of a Junior Flite Streak.

I hurled it 169 ft.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Dick Pacini · « **Reply #6 on:** February 04, 2014, 02:20:17 PM »

There is another Fox thread in Engine Set Up Tips. Moderators might consider merging the two threads.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2014, 09:14:20 AM »

Fox did well to keep making American engines so long.

With wide-open borders and overwhelming government oppression, there isn't much chance of manufacturing anything here.

America is the land of cheap Chinese products and no jobs.

Jim Thomerson · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2014, 11:55:37 AM »

I dunno. My son in law is back working for a company which sells machine shop tools. He was laid off by them (last in, first out) four or five years ago. I take this as a hopeful sign.

55chevr · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2014, 12:22:25 PM »

While it is a fact that as the Chinese economy improves their workers pay will rise with it. Eventually it will level with the US and than foreign manufactured goods will not be favorably priced with the added shipping costs. As we have seen with Hondas now made in Ohio, Toyotas now made in Indiana. We just have to be able to survive until that happens.

John Craig · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2014, 01:42:14 PM »

I too got a similar message from Fox. I previously have called on Fridays to place orders & someone was there to take it. Last time I called on a Friday, all I got was an answering machine: no one home.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2014, 01:49:25 PM »

A good deal of the manufacturing is already back or coming back. I'm thinking Sharon might have meant Japan though as OS was their only major IC engine competitor. Brodak may be made in China but I know of little else. Apparently getting Super Tigres is impossible as Tower has been out for about a year it seems to me. OS is the only real competition they had for the very small market we present. Electric gobbled up the rest and likely is the Chinese factor. I hope we give those left, Jett, Enya and yes OS enough business to keep them going. These owners are aging and could retire soon. Give them a reason to go a little longer.

Dave

Mike Greb · « **Reply #12 on:** February 05, 2014, 03:29:50 PM »

A much as I like fox manufacturing, the product line became very stale. Nothing really new since the late 80's. New design carbs every several years that are a mystery to set up, and unreliable. When was the last time you saw a fox motor at the rc field? Did it run without fiddling?

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #13 on:** February 05, 2014, 06:31:11 PM »

Quote from: Mike Greb on February 05, 2014, 03:29:50 PM

A much as I like fox manufacturing, the product line became very stale. Nothing really new since the late 80's. New design carbs every several years that are a mystery to set up, and unreliable. When was the last time you saw a fox motor at the rc field? Did it run without fiddling?

Yeah, You're absolutely right Mike. This has been coming for a long time and I personally doubt that we'll see any resumption of manufacturing of Model airplane engines from Fox.
We, as CL fliers owe Fox a big debt of gratitude for the early days of CL Stunt...since then, the handwriting has been on the wall for many. many years. The only surprise is that it lasted this long.
Tecnology moves on or it gets squashed! And I seriously doubt that it had anything to do with Chinese manufacturing. Had they made sincere effort they could have captured the nich market of high performance, high dollar engines, but they kept thier 1950's engineering principals right to the end. This is clearly evident in the CL Stunt 60 they made a few years ago. Powerful, but too big to interchange with any existing engines...which required building an airplane specially for an unknown quantity...Dumb Marketing move!!! So it was relegated to mostly new fliers and ARFs and it was a $300.00 engine...dumb marketing move.

It's too bad to see thier demise but like I said it's really been that way for a long time.

Now the FOX 35 nuts can become real engine collectors and pay outrageous prices for them!!!!

Randy Cuberly

Mike Keville · « **Reply #14 on:** February 05, 2014, 06:35:51 PM »

Best OTS engine I ever had was the 4-bolt sandcast Fox .29 (given to me by Tom Lay) in this Box Car Chief. One-flip starts, smooth running....right up 'til it broke a crank in mid-flight.

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #15 on:** February 05, 2014, 06:56:30 PM »

Quote from: Mike Keville on February 05, 2014, 06:35:51 PM

Best OTS engine I ever had was the 4-bolt sandcast Fox .29 (given to me by Tom Lay) in this Box Car Chief. One-flip starts, smooth running....right up 'til it broke a crank in mid-flight.

I have a 4 bolt sandcast Fox 29 Mike. Do you still have the one from your Box Car Chief?

Randy Cuberly

Mike Keville · « **Reply #16 on:** February 05, 2014, 07:02:32 PM »

Nope....it's long-gone, but thanx for "axing".

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #17 on:** February 05, 2014, 08:07:28 PM »

Quote from: Mike Keville on February 05, 2014, 07:02:32 PM

Nope....it's long-gone, but thanx for "axing".

Hmmm....Do you want one? Free!

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #18 on:** February 05, 2014, 10:55:46 PM »

Quote from: 55chevr on February 04, 2014, 10:13:15 AM

The solution is that Fox should contract for motor manufacture in China.

Blasphemy!

Fox Engine dept. is only a small portion of their business. They manf. alot of CNC parts as contractors.
It makes sense to cut the least profitable parts of their business.
I think they keep the model line going out of respect for their legacy.

Mike Greb is right. If you look at the engine line, it's the same dies they have been using for 30+ years with minor changes.
FOX is the "AMF Harley-Davidson" of our hobby.

John Stiles · « **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2014, 06:00:07 AM »

Quote from: Douglas Ames on February 05, 2014, 10:55:46 PM

FOX is the "AMF Harley-Davidson" of our hobby.

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #20 on:** February 06, 2014, 09:03:49 AM »

The Fox 60 was a new casting, right? A club member owns one. We ran it on the bench. Ran very well. Anyone try it in stunt? At a going price of $200, it would be a bargain if it worked. Ceramic lining. Or is it a ceramic piston coating. Modern in our bailiwick. Making Fox35s work is a sub hobby niche for some. More than a few in our club. Lot of Fox 35s around. A lifetime supply nearly. The lifetime of Control Line as we know it. Our club is into the Fox Combat engines. Flite Streak on bladder, combat Fox, intense nostalgia.

Dick Pacini · « **Reply #21 on:** February 06, 2014, 12:53:29 PM »

The global market is more about the company than the location. As long as the domestic corporation has the proper representation in its plants around the globe, the quality standards will remain high and satisfactory products will be produced, regardless of the lat/lon. Most domestic autos and trucks are built with parts from several countries.

As an aside, I recently bought a small rotary table and chuck for my milling machine. The quality and workmanship are outstanding. They are almost too pretty to put to use. I was surprised to learn they were made in India.

Ron Cribbs · « **Reply #22 on:** February 06, 2014, 06:41:32 PM »

More junk from China is not the answer.

The answer would have been to support the company more along the way and put more of a demand on them to change the product line when the engines no longer performed well enough to suit our needs.

The good thing is there are a lot of Fox engines out there so if one is needed it won't be hard to find.

I for one would rather spend a couple extra dollars for something made in the USA!

YakNine · « **Reply #23 on:** February 06, 2014, 06:55:36 PM »

I would have to say the 2 most popular engines in use at our field are the Fox .35 and the LA .46 . Its a shame that they don't make stunt happy larger engine that's ready to go without being reworked, I love my Foxes and probably have around 20 of them mostly .35 stunts I just love how they sound all the sudden I am 12 again watching the big guys tearing up the sky with their Ringmasters you can't put a price on that !

phil c · « **Reply #24 on:** February 06, 2014, 07:03:11 PM »

Quote from: Mike Greb on February 05, 2014, 03:29:50 PM

A much as I like fox manufacturing, the product line became very stale. Nothing really new since the late 80's. New design carbs every several years that are a mystery to set up, and unreliable. When was the last time you saw a fox motor at the rc field? Did it run without fiddling?

I've had good luck with the Fox Deluxe 40. Powerful, easy to start. The only bugaboo was an early problem with the carb. They used a unique(as usual with Fox) method of metering the intermediate fuel setting, a slot and a drilled hole. The intermediate mixture tended to be too lean, so I hit the edge of the slot at the hole with a small file and that solved the lean middle mixture.

Excellent running motor.

Phil C

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #25 on:** February 06, 2014, 07:38:54 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on February 06, 2014, 09:03:49 AM

The Fox 60 was a new casting, right? A club member owns one. We ran it on the bench. Ran very well. Anyone try it in stunt? At a going price of $200, it would be a bargain if it worked. Ceramic lining. Or is it a ceramic piston coating. Modern in our bailiwick. Making Fox35s work is a sub hobby niche for some. More than a few in our club. Lot of Fox 35s around. A lifetime supply nearly. The lifetime of Control Line as we know it. Our club is into the Fox Combat engines. Flite Streak on bladder, combat Fox, intense nostalgia.

I think that the case was a rework of the eagle 1 which replaced the Falcon 60. They were light and were actually a very good 60 for the day. Never saw the new Fox 60 so have no opinion about it

Mike Keville · « **Reply #26 on:** February 06, 2014, 08:05:19 PM »

Well, I "broke in" back in the day of the sand-cast Fox 29 and 35, thus would be sorry to see them go. Like many Old Timers, I long for the past....missing the 'good old days': Powermist, Testors 39, O&R #2...10/6 Top Flites, etc., etc. - back when modeling was modeling, rather than being dominated by foam and electronics.

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #27 on:** February 06, 2014, 10:15:07 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on February 06, 2014, 09:03:49 AM

The Fox 60 was a new casting, right? A club member owns one. We ran it on the bench. Ran very well. Anyone try it in stunt? At a going price of $200, it would be a bargain if it worked. Ceramic lining. Or is it a ceramic piston coating. Modern in our bailiwick. Making Fox35s work is a sub hobby niche for some. More than a few in our club. Lot of Fox 35s around. A lifetime supply nearly. The lifetime of Control Line as we know it. Our club is into the Fox Combat engines. Flite Streak on bladder, combat Fox, intense nostalgia.

Look closer, you can see the parting line where they added the new venturi to a very old die. Even the fins have the same casting flaws as 30 years ago!

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #28 on:** February 06, 2014, 11:00:57 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on February 06, 2014, 09:03:49 AM

The Fox 60 was a new casting, right? A club member owns one. We ran it on the bench. Ran very well. Anyone try it in stunt? At a going price of $200, it would be a bargain if it worked. Ceramic lining. Or is it a ceramic piston coating. Modern in our bailiwick. Making Fox35s work is a sub hobby niche for some. More than a few in our club. Lot of Fox 35s around. A lifetime supply nearly. The lifetime of Control Line as we know it. Our club is into the Fox Combat engines. Flite Streak on bladder, combat Fox, intense nostalgia.

Dennis,
The Fox 60 Stunt was on a modified lightened Fox Eagle case. I had one of the early ones and paid $300.00 for it. It was not ceramic coated. I guess the early ones were not. It was an aluminum piston and AAC sleeve. Even with all that it still weighed almost 14 oz without a muffler. It did come with a nice light muffler that weighed only an oz and a quarter, but a really dumb designed needle valve assembly that leaked. I replace the needle valve assembly with an Aeroproducts unit. It runs very well on the bench and will turn a 14 inch prop with ease...very powerful engine...as was the Fox Eagle. Unfortunately it has two major problems...it is heavy and it is big. The mounts are very large and it simply is not possible to cram it in an existing stunter that was built for anything else. It's much larger than even the PA or RO Jett 75/76. I was going to put it in an ARF Strega, just to try it...but just never got around to it. Maybe someday, but I have too many serious projects right now to fiddle with one that may not secceed.
Building a big stunter is a lot of work and building one for an engine that is simply an unknown quantity that wouldn't basically work for any thing that already exists is not an attractive proposition. I suspect that was part of the problem with the Fox 60 Stunt. I talked with several other modelers (experts) and they all agreed that it was very unfortunate that it couldn't be retro fitted into an existing airplane to try it before investing money and time in something that might not work well.
Like I said above...not exactly brilliant marketing strategy!

Randy Cuberly

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #29 on:** February 07, 2014, 12:33:10 AM »

Thanks Randy for your explanation. A friend told me some years back that the Eagle 60 was, in fact, a good stunt engine. He is a widely experienced flyer competitive in Expert. The 60 Eagle engine (the older stunt 60) is described at the Fox website as available in either a ringed or ABC configuration. The new stunt Fox 60 is said to have a ceramic cylinder. I just weighed a PA61. 11.1 ounces on my postal scale. A 14 ounce Fox is at a significant handicap.

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #30 on:** February 07, 2014, 01:09:37 AM »

Fox 35s are surprisingly capable stunt engines when set up correctly. Competitive in Old Time as well as Classic. Their light weight is a significant advantage over modern 35s and 40s. 2 ounces is a lot of nose lead on an Oriental and the like. I have seen good running Foxes pull Orientals with authority. FP40s, LA40s and 46s, often make these Classic models sluggish at the controls. Adding tail weight to get the cg right means an additional weight handicap. 3 or 4 ounces can significantly degrade performance. Classic models were often designed with moments that work best with a 6 ounce engine.

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #31 on:** February 07, 2014, 08:11:13 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on February 07, 2014, 01:09:37 AM

Fox 35s are surprisingly capable stunt engines when set up correctly. Competitive in Old Time as well as Classic. Their light weight is a significant advantage over modern 35s and 40s. 2 ounces is a lot of nose lead on an Oriental and the like. I have seen good running Foxes pull Orientals with authority. FP40s, LA40s and 46s, often make these Classic models sluggish at the controls. Adding tail weight to get the cg right means an additional weight handicap. 3 or 4 ounces can significantly degrade performance. Classic models were often designed with moments that work best with a 6 ounce engine.

Dennis is correct in his assumption that many of the older models were designed around light engines. But that was what they had to work with then. Most of the designers who still fly their older designs have upgraded the designs to use newer power plants. once flown with these newer engines I seriously doubt that many of them have willingly wanted to revisit the past power plants, Fox included.

Dennis

Brett Buck · « **Reply #32 on:** February 07, 2014, 10:25:25 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on February 07, 2014, 01:09:37 AM

Fox 35s are surprisingly capable stunt engines when set up correctly. Competitive in Old Time as well as Classic. Their light weight is a significant advantage over modern 35s and 40s. 2 ounces is a lot of nose lead on an Oriental and the like. I have seen good running Foxes pull Orientals with authority. FP40s, LA40s and 46s, often make these Classic models sluggish at the controls. Adding tail weight to get the cg right means an additional weight handicap. 3 or 4 ounces can significantly degrade performance. Classic models were often designed with moments that work best with a 6 ounce engine.

Foxes are indeed pretty capable when run in a proper application. The real Fox 35 has more power than many of the eastern block Fox tribute motors like the Double Star and Stalker 35/40s. Put it in an upright or inverted mount, with the right fuel, and you can see why it won so many contests. Heck, there have been times when I recommended people get a stock Fox to replace their "Super Stunt Dremel Tool Modified-for-lucky-best-stunt-run" 40's and 46s so they could have more power. The limitations of the Fox are well-known and there are plenty of solutions for them. The DS/Stalker/hacked up LAs will last a lot longer and will tolerate abuse much better, but it hardly matters since it won't be competitive.

The weight is a red herring, however. If you compare to the heavier DS40 or Stalker 35, you have a point, because they are both heavier and weaker. Comparing to something like a *stock* 25FP or 25/40/40LA, however, is another story. Even with a few ounces more in the nose, and a few ounces more in the tail, it's usually a net improvement due to the vastly more effective "power". Even on a small airplane, 4-5 ounces doesn't matter if you have enough engine to make up for it.

Brett

Jim Thomerson · « **Reply #33 on:** February 07, 2014, 12:38:34 PM »

I build tail heavy airplanes so I always ran heavy hubs on my Fox stunt 35s.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #34 on:** February 07, 2014, 02:02:40 PM »

A whole lot of those Foxes had two ounces of lead in the nose under them!

Martin Quartim · « **Reply #35 on:** February 07, 2014, 02:10:08 PM »

I spoke with Sharon on the phone yesterday and she said Fox is not closing. They have no engines right now but had parts and will make engines again.

Martin

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #36 on:** February 07, 2014, 02:53:54 PM »

The Orientals in our club proved to be problematic with LA 40s,46s and FP40s in the nose. Sluggish handling. Significant tail weight needed to put the cg right. Better with the weight but not great. The Orientals powered by Fox35s and OS35s handle significantly better.

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #37 on:** February 07, 2014, 10:16:53 PM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on February 07, 2014, 02:02:40 PM

A whole lot of those Foxes had two ounces of lead in the nose under them!

I still have two Fox 35 back covers that were poured full of lead from my cast bullet making operation of the past!

Made a bunch of those things for various folks!

Randy Cuberly

john e. holliday · « **Reply #38 on:** February 08, 2014, 07:52:14 AM »

I remember using shaft extensions on my Fox .35 Stunt so they could be moved back on my planes. I've only had one plane that I filled the back plate with lead. It was the Yates Dragon.

David_Ruff · « **Reply #39 on:** February 08, 2014, 07:57:52 AM »

Quote from: Douglas Ames on February 05, 2014, 10:55:46 PM

Blasphemy!

Fox Engine dept. is only a small portion of their business. They manf. alot of CNC parts as contractors.
It makes sense to cut the least profitable parts of their business.
I think they keep the model line going out of respect for their legacy.

Mike Greb is right. If you look at the engine line, it's the same dies they have been using for 30+ years with minor changes.
FOX is the "AMF Harley-Davidson" of our hobby.

Wow..AMF HD of our time..that hurts. I worked for AMF HD in York in 79.

Leo Mehl · « **Reply #40 on:** February 08, 2014, 02:10:33 PM »

I loved the fox engine but it could have been improved with a better crank and a longer shaft. The timing on the fox was the best ever but again it had some built in flaws that could have been fixed so they would last longer. If this engine was built a little more stout with the same timming and a little more power it would sell very goo. I hope Fox will live forever.